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My gc has spec’d IKO Cambridge shingles for a new home construction to begin this spring (in Maine). The lawyer I talked to today….to look over the contract and purchase agreement….mentioned that he had dealt with several clients recently that had problems/claims for IKO shingles (on new home construction projects)….though he could not specify exactly which IKO shingle they were having problems with. Does anyone know what I should be looking out for?
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well, from personal experience, the adhesive that the tabs seal to, is about as sticky as a postal stamp. so much for 70 mph winds!
but they look great.
good luck
*Iko shingles failed miserably for me in a routine installation. The company did not stand behind thier product. I wouldn't ever consider using any of thier products again. In fact after more than a year of "lurking" on this site I registered just to voice my opinion about the shoddy products from this shoddy company. Wally
*Wally:Which line of the IKO shingles did you use? Cambridge? My builder is telling me that he has had no problems whatsoever since he has been using IKO shingles.
*I put IKO shingles on, the standard 25 year ones, almost two years ago. High wind area, no problems, well-sealed.
*Entrophy,I had Cambridge 25 year laminated architectural grade installed by my regular roofer over his mild objections. They failed miserably, not enough stickem on the sealing tabs. Installed in August with plenty of hot sun to seal them down. The response from both the factory rep and the factory themselves were absolutely piss poor. They tried to hang the whole thing on my roofer. In a trade with a fair share of flakes, this is a guy who never let me down once in 15 years. I wouldn't stand for it and backed him up to the hilt. Finally pressured the supplier to make good replacing most of the product that failed. But please note, that was the supplier, who basically ate the loss not the factory that made faulty and defective roofing. IKO's poor performance weasling out from under the responsibility of producing absolute shit for product, let alone honoring any kind of guarantee will keep me from ever considering using anything they make ever. Don't ask your GC, ask a good local roofer what he'd put on his roof in the price range you want to buy. And my .02, DON'T USE IKO! Wally
*Dear Entropy,You will hear mixed stories about every roofing product. Shingle lines are made at different plants and there are occasional process problems in every line. That's what the manufacturer's guarantee is supposed to cover. But...I recently attended the annual CertainTeed Roofing Council in Albany where these matters are discussed among high volume roofing contractors. (they let me in only because I make so much noise) I was surprised to see IKO quality problems come up. The consensus was not that they had an extraordinary amount of failures, but that they were exceptionally picky about installation. For example, replacement coverage for shingle cracking was denied b/c unrelated nailing or flashing problems were discovered. This is naturally viewed as dishonest by contractors and pretty stupid business practice IMO.I use CertainTeed shingles b/c I have a good relationship with a supplier, the products are good, the support is great, and the company has pledged to cover their product in a straight forward way. But nobody actually knows whether their average shingle is better than an IKO or an Elk.Wally, I'm very interested in roofing failures. I have to assume that you experienced blown off shingles. We see this a lot in all makes of laminated shingles. The common factor is high nailing. Even my beloved CertainTeed Woodscapes will fly off in midsummer if the nails are outside the zone. Do you have any information about nailing issues on that failure.Splintergroupie, IKO products are common here in Vermont, and they perform well in this nasty climate. I think they are made in Canada and are aggressively priced b/c of the money exchange. Are you Canadan or close to the border? Aside from collecting success and failure stories, I'm interested to see how much of NA they can distribute to. Were you offered a choice of brands and did the choice of IKO come with a significant cost savings?Cordially, Fred
*Fred: Good to see you back again!
*Dear Cat,Thanks buddy. Can't wait to get into it with you.Hey, Bush or Lincoln? Your pick for best Pres?Regards, Fred
*Have heard of and seen problems!! with IKO products here, a mate of mine installed 40+ sq. new construction, in summer and by next spring we had never seen such a mess, shingles missing, curled up very few stuck down etc. Final outcome was the lumber yard ate the cost as we had no joy with IKO, they didn't even send a rep, needless to say they no longer stock IKO products.so long from the Kootenays, gtw
*Entropy We installed IKO, 30 year Chateau ultra shadow shingles on our new home 3 years ago. We are located in northeast Vermont, mountain views, a LOT of wind e.t.c. We are very happy with them so far, sealed very quickly. I do know of someone who had a problem with the same shingle, but they had been installed 7-12 years ago. And last I knew, IKO had requested he send a sample in to be looked at. I am not sure how it turned out. His house was very poorly sealed, insulated e.t.c. A lot of ice problems!! I believe any shingle would have failed under the conditions.. Dennis
*fredl... good to see you back... we used a lot of IKO , especially when the first fiberglass mat came out.. IKO had a good consistent organic felt mat.. a lot of the roofers here would ONLY use IKO organics in winter installations.. but it's been what, 10 years now... and the astm testing and hurricane andrew have changed the industry.. now i spec Certainteed.. but i'll install most anything the homeowner wants..... i really start to whine when they talk about ELK though...
*Hey Mike,I can't believe it. We're both still alive. Now even though RI is only in New England as a technicality, I still respect your opinion. Do your clients ever come to you with a shingle brand in mind? It's never happened to me.And how about Elk? Nobody offers them here, but I remember guys out west raving about them. You no like? High $?Best, Fred
*Fred,I used the IKO Marathon (glass, 3 tab) bec it had the best warranty for the money of the 25-year shingles i investigated and the colors suited me; i was surprised that some of the laminated/expensive shingles carried only a 25-yr. warranty. I bought them at a United Building Center bec they also delivered to the roof for dirt cheap; they had a large variety of colors and styles in stock, including some of the premium (laminated) shingles. The roof was a hipped 4.5:12 pitch with four valleys. The decking was 3/4" boards covered in 30# felt, watershield at the edges. Valleys had metal, watershield, and closed-cut shingles. The work was done in springtime with temps in 50's during the day. Since this was my own house and i didn't have to hurry, all the fasterners were placed using a ruler (metric). I admit to stapling them down bec i bought a stapler years ago before i found out that stapling isn't supposed to work, but i'd already put on another 23 sq. roof nearby a few years earlier that is still perfectly sealed despite high winds. We've had 80 MPH gusts since then, and no problems. With what i've heard here about the value of the IKO warranty and variability of shingles, however, i would be loathe to use them again.
*First of all: Splinter, what exactly does that picture show, did you design something in the roof?Second: Mike, what is the hate toward Elk?! I've only been using their product for 6 years but have installed everything in the line-up. Other than the fact that they are difficult to cut in the cold, I like the performance. The 25's that moved to 30 year are priced locally at $60/sq. which makes me apprehensive about selling because I know there are cheaper products. But I also believe it's pay me now, or pay me later!! Don't get me wrong, I would sell Certainteed all day if my local supplier could guarantee supply.
*Fred, I just installed IKO Cambridge on my roof and was happy to see your comments - I was starting to get worried. I'm on east coast Vancouver Island and IKO is heavily used here with no unusual record of failures. IKO has a plant in NW Washington as well as one in Alberta. I'm not sure which mine came from.
*Dustin, there's a border design in the shingles, but mostly i wanted to show it's undamaged after high winds.
*I appreciate the replies guys....I just recently discovered this site (thanks to Jason_MI)......there are a lot of knowledgeable people that post here...back to the shingles.......I will discuss the possibility of Certainteed shingles with my builder, as it looks like I could be in for trouble with the IKOs, are the Certainteeds comparable in price?thanks again
*dustin.. the last time i installed elk was about '94... architectural... and they were inconsistent in their sizing..... my man laid to the top line and the bottoms wandered..... i also didn't like the small target area for nailing..but that was '94.. who knows now.. who cares? but i did lose on that job...mostly my fault... but fool me once shame on you, fool me twice ?fredl...customers come to me with a shingle brand if they've already talked to someone else... we do the yada , yada, yada.. and i tell 'em WHY i prefer Certainteed...
*Dustin, all I can say is WOW are you being hosed if you are paying $60/sq. for Elk PII's.I believe I pay about $38/sq. for roof top delivery of PII's,currently a 30 year product.The last top of the line Elks I bought went on my own house and I think those were around $60/sq. for 40 years( now they are 50 years. If I had to pay $60/sq. for Elk PII I would probably be shilling Certainteed like Mike Smith.Now the shingle I hearr that I really should try is Malarkey Shingles,but I can't get 'em in Ohio.Apparently they have solved the narrow nailing area problem of laminated shingles Mike is refering to.
*Dear Dick,Party on. You've got to be seeing some serious wind out there no? I'm certain that fastener position and maybe the aggressiveness of the adhesive are far more important than shingle brand or weight. The CertainTeed reps I mentioned earlier also mentioned thermal shock. In NE, we see 50F temperature swings in 24 hours. They say that works the shingles enough to cause damage. And suggested that we avoid their Heritage line because it was reacting badly to NE climate.I'm thinking that your weather is a bit more benign.Regards, Fred
*I wouldn't buy that about temp swings. That normal for anywhere USA. In the west it's not uncommon for temp swings of 80 degrees.Here in Maine the IKOs get pushed a lot and I haven't heard too much complaining but then there's not much else available, given the exchange rate and proximity to Canada.I think the ELKs I used in Texas and Colorado were from Mexico and they were definitely substandard coverings.
*stephen: hah, hah, hah..your comment about shilling Certainteed got me thinking.. so i tried to look up their stock.. wholly owned subsidiary of Saint-Gobain.. and i couldn't find a listing for their stock either.. anyways.. spent the afternoon installing the b CERTAINTEED Shingle Vent II on our b CERTAINTEED XT-30 roof.. what a great day for February !
*Dear Splintergroupie,Thanks for the data and photo, and one other thing. I made the mistake of assuming you were a consumer instead of a producer. First let me say that I won't repeat that mistake. Second, I appreciate the graceful way you corrected me.::philosophical mode on::I'm the new guy here, even though others have been very welcoming. They know me from another incarnation and remember the ferocious exchanges and destructive battles that I gleefully joined. Many of those regrettable events ignited on the tinder of mis-reads and thoughtless assumptions. So here I am skipping along, thinking I'm beyond this, and you catch me. Good for you. Good for me.::end philosophical mode::I think you had good luck with 80 MPH winds. But not that much luck. Oddly, single ply shingles seem to be more wind resistant than laminated products. The highest rated shingle I know, Hatteras by CT, is single ply and rated for 110 MPH. It doesn't use more fasteners, but twice the glue. We always thought shingle weight was linked to wind resistance, but it's not happening.I suppose that your "excessive" attention to fastener position, even though they were slap staples, was a very profitable effort. Also, the hip design and slope seem to have the look of an evolutionary building reaction to the regional weather. A fellow called Anton TenWolde in Madison has been making measurements and mapping pressure zones on buildings. His roof results (not published) are very interesting and counter intuitive. Based on his scribbles, I can see how geometry of your house would shed wind efficiently. Sometimes it all works out.Ever, Fred
*Graceful corrections on my part are entirely accidental, Fred! But now i know what they look like, i might test the repeatability factor.Anton TenWolde's comments about leakage past the top plate piqued my curiosity, but that's another thread.I wish i could resolve the staple/nail controversy to my satisfaction, however. Staples just make sense to me, esp straddling the tabs. I know, the so-called "warranty"...
*Mike,maybe you will get a laugh out of what happened to me at a Certainteed seminar I attended in Cleveland yesterday.About 30% of my shingles sold are 3 tabs. (70% laminates)Certainteed XT30 are virtually perfect to function as a base model for me. Even though my prefered supplier doesn't carry XT30's I am happy to drive across town and deal with another supplier in order to use XT30's.You might say that I am bending over backwards in order to use this product. All I want is a little help in the area of sales support-----a simple flyer or brochure with XT30 color samples and the name and phone number of the local Certainteed rep. Simple---but Certainteed has resisted my advances for 2 years.so at the seminar yesterday I see my chance to meet the rep face to face,simply and politely explain what I need and then everyone can be happy.I quitely get the rep AND the seminar speaker off to the side and make my pitch.The rep is incredulous that I have had this problem but is quite gracious and promises to hook me up with what I need.I go back to my seat feeling all "warm and fuzzy" about what fine folks these people at certainteed are. Mission accomplished.Now comes the funny part. Seminar begins.The speaker----a certainteed employee---was part of my discussion with the rep. He begins his program and after 5 minutes or so he is talking about "niche" marketing.He looks out at the seminar,sees me---sees my bald head--and reads my nametag.He says"Steve,you might decide to make bald headed customers YOUR niche market"-----29 contractors in the room laugh and Steve,the 30th person in the room grins and takes it like a good sport.At that moment,the speaker lost ALL credibility with me.In his opening remarks he knowingly violated what has to be the first rule of salesmanship.DON"T INSULT someone you are trying to sell to.24 hours later I am still laughing at this.Imagine a professional speaker standing up in a similar forum and saying--" Leroy,you should concentrate on selling to "darkies" and Sol,the "hook noses "are your obvious market".It could never happen ,could it?I tell you Mike, I really want to sell XT30's,but certainteed makes it so hard for me. It is as if they force me into the arms of their competitors. I drove 57 minutes each way through rain and snow to attend that seminar and in an instant the speaker stabs me AND the market rep in the back.
*Fred L.,good to hear from you again.If you encounter customers looking for high wind warrranties in a laminated shingle---they are available.the most recent info I have from Elk shows 3laminated product lines with wind ratings up to 110 miles per hour.Capstone ,a 40 year shingle,110mph.Prestique Plus High Definition,50 year shingle,110mphPrestique Gallery Collection,50 year shingle,110mph.Elk happens to be the brand I am most familiar with----but it wouldn't suprize me if other makers produced similar warrranties----I just don't know for sure.I would further guess that all the "110mph warranties" are different from each other. Maybe one is clearly better,but I don't know for sure.wind warranty is not a big selling feature in my area.If it was,I would have better info available.
*stephen... sometimes you gotta wonder how some of 'em stay in business..WE had the greatest rep. here for Bird shingles... old New England brand.. this guy could get you anything.. any info.. any thing you needed.. any time of day or night.. so Bird gets rid of him and goes to in-house reps.. .. well , the in-house rep didn't survive the Certainteed buy-out.... i'll tell you... there ain't much i can say bad about Certainteed around here.. everytime i lock in on a product they buy the company.. they bought AirVent.. which makes Shingle Vent II .. been using them for 20 years... .. i decide to go intop fibercement.. check out teh market.. decide that Ashland -Davis is the best for me.. Certainteed buys Ashland Davis...they buy Bird Shinlges , which used to bwe my favorite until tehy had a couple of bad years.. and canned their rep for honoring too many warranty issues..... but anyhow.. certainteed has got some great programs for contractors.. sounds like you could work with your regional rep. and get all set up.. sure is funny how these things run counter from one region to anotherWe're qualified for the fiber cement program, the master shingler program.. and the air vent program...I got a nice fiber cement job because i was the only one in the STATE listed as a fiber cement installer...go figgerThe master Shinle Applicator Manual is a good teaching tool for new employees also.. and they can take the test and get qualified on basic knowledge...so.. forget about the idiot .. chalk it up to speaker stage fright...glad it wasn't me though.. i might have forgotten some of my own advice and let him know what a jerk he was... hah, hah, hah...
*Mike, might you be talkin' about the old Nor'easter? It was a very good shingle ........ put many a square of those up. Liked that it had no slots. What would you consider it's equivalent in the Certainteed line now?
*Dear Splintergroupie,Accidentally graceful? You mean like Virginia McMath stumbling backwards in sensible shoes, due to her poor sense of direction? Ok.Staples have always been a favorite with me b/c of their double-shear properties. But you lost me on the staple/nail controversy. I'm eager to learn more about your views on tab straddling as well.And top plates. Yes, they will surely come up sooner or later.Ever, Fred
*Dear Stephen,Nice to be talking with you. Sorry to hear about the bum rep. Got to admit that lunch was good. Right?Have you tried the triple ply Grand Manor product? Most excellent. Regards, Fred
*jcallahan.. our house has the no-slot shingle..."Bird Jet"... i haven't used it in a while.. but i'm sure Certainteed makes one.. usually called a "jet" shingle..
*Thanks!
*Stephen, you comment that I'm getting hosed on the Elks, but every 8 months the shingle prices rise 7%. 2 1/2 years ago I got them for $38/sq. Different markets allow pricing like that, please don't blame me for that. As a matter of fact, Cert. Landmarks(the new 30's) are $53/sq. around here. 4 years ago, XT 25's were $27/sq., I can't imagine what they are today.
*Dustin, I am not quite sure why you feel I am blaming YOU for commodity prices in your neck of the woods I do feel that you are being hosed locally.I am not sure where you are located,----but I know that Elk opened a new $75 million plant in Pennsylvania 14 months ago.The line in that plant runs 600 lineal feet of product per minute----24 hours a day,7 days a week,year round.The availability of that product has never been better.Here is the fun part----I started using that product(Elk) maybe 8-10 years ago. The price I pay has never really changed in all that time. Certainly not 7% hikes every 8 months.Maybe $1.50/square increase over 8 YEARS,if that.And my material price on 3 tabs has remained equally stable.So ,you can see why I feel you are being hosed.Or perhaps I am just lucky.
*Fred,Sorry for the less than timely reply. Yes nail placement was an issue. And yes, some of the nails were above the little blue target line. I would say that the fliers were within 1/4 to 1/2 inch. Are laminated shingles more sensitive about nail placement than the cheaper more vanilla flavors? I am a carpenter/contractor not a roofer, not an expert on roofing. However that being said, my roofer is a good one who has consistently given me good service for 10 years or more. These shingles had almost no stickum on them. The IKO shingles had been specified by the customer. So responsibility was split meaning in the end I was the guy who ate it. I watched those shingles lifting from the wind and find it hard to believe that moving the "hinge" another 1/2 inch down the shingle would have prevented that. Somewhere I have photos of those shingles lifted by the wind sitting 90 degrees to the plane of the roof. It is my opinion that building products have to work in the field as well as the laboratory. In my area roofers work fast with guns. Most of the shingles I saw were gunned on target but as described above not all were. If placement is really that critical I'd just as soon use another product. And given the obvious lack of sealing tar I damn well won't have anything to do with a company that turns out crappy product and weasels out of any responsibility. It is my belief that if the shingles had sealed down after a few months time following a hot August installation none of this would have happened. I remember the first time I saw LP siding and reading the specs on installation. I said to myself this will never work... Wally
*If it would help, i could mail an IKO shingle sample from my stock that sealed well to anyone who wants to compare the amount of tar strip with what they are getting on their local IKO shingle.
*Dear Wally,Thanks for the report. No worries about the timing, we have no reason to rush.Yes, nailing just a bit too high has a tremendous impact on wind performance. The trouble with these laminated products is that the lap is so narrow. The zone right over the lap is the weakest area of the shingle. Of course the roofers want to move fast and also don't want to nail low. The adhesive doesn't seem to help. I've got clients who have me replace a few blown shingles year after year. Each one has a tear where the nail pulled through above the lamination lap.I hear you when you talk about the flapping. They don't seem to flap when they are nailed in the zone. But I don't think this issue is particular to any manufacturer. I'm pushing the Grand Manor product b/c the laminations (all 3) go right to the top of the shingle. There is no weak zone.There's another weird defect I see that is related to high nailing. If you ever chance upon a house with a steep mansard roof done in laminated shingles, look for drop outs. This is where the shingle becomes delaminated and the bottom part slips down as there is no nail in it. Very goofy. The CertainTeed reps boast about their new/improved glue. It is very aggressive and sometimes gives us a fight opening up the bundles. One thing I noticed is that the glue is applied as a thicker bead. You'll see it in this photo an IKO Chateau above and a CertainTeed Woodscape below. There's about the same amount of glue, but the IKO is smeared thinner. Less grab?And forgive the informality. Saturdays at Lake Construction Labs are always casual.Regards, FredHey SG, how about a pic?
*My, and here i thought MT roofing crews were so tough!Pic coming up as soon as i find my snowmobile suit...
*Here's a pic of both sides of the IKO shingles i used. The far left shingle had the tape removed for clarity.
*Fred, I agree with you that having the laminations run the full height of the shingle might be superior.In my opinion,however, the high nailing case you describe on a Mansard would not ultimately be solved with full height laminations.The high nailing pattern has eliminated the possibility of secondary fasteners( crucial on a mansard)and also probably indicates that 6 nails were not used.After all if the installer was careless enough to high nail a mansard,it is unlikely that he was carefull enough to use the recommended 6 nail pattern.I think eventually you would see the ENTIRE shingle drop down in the case of a high nailed Grand Manor shingle installed on a Mansard.I am sure you have seen( as I have) shingles fall out of high nailed mansard roofs done in 3-tabs---no laminations at all.In fact I often find whole sections of roofs---7 or 8 shingles sealed together with the whole high nailed section falling out in one piece.The lamination system of the grand manor may very well make it twice as strong. It also probably makes it twice as heavy. On a mansard,I think it is the weight of the shingle HANGING on the fasteners that is key. WE need the proper amount(6) of fasteners in the proper place to permit secondary fasteners.I want the weight of any mansard shingle hanging on 12 nails,not 4.
*Dear Stephen,No argument with that, although I have yet to see whole clumps of shingles fall out. Looking forward to it.SG, Your shingles appear nominal, but DANG, that's good looking snow. It rained hard today. Serious mud.Signed, Starving Ice Dam Expert
*Fred,--- the south side and west side of roofs are the natural habitats to find whole" flocks " of shingles dropping together.
*I guess I am a bit overwhelmed by some of the conflicting opinions/information out there....and I am still trying to figure out my best option. Is the general consensus that I should steer clear of the IKO cambridge?.....and if so, which of the Certainteed shingles would be comparable in price and style?Or should I be all set provided the installers do their part properly?thanks again