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Just curious to know what other contractors are doing about hiring undocumented immigrants(politically correct terminology). Here in Central Jersey, there are tens of thousands of day laborers looking for work. Any thoughts?
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If no one hires them they won't come. Too simplistic I'm sure, but never the less it is true. From the barrio, Joe H
*I'm dead set against it. Here in Texas, they're a dime a dozen and get treated that way. Most people turn a blind eye to it. I think it should be a crime. Oh yeah, it is a crime. But nobody goes to jail. I think the empolyer should take some serious liability, but here in Texas, the lawmakers all use the illegls to work thier ranches and clean thier houses. So that ain't gonna happen.Ed. Williams
*INS comes through once, maybe twice looking for the requisite documentation. Within short order, they're back to levy some very mighty fines. Last time I looked it was upwards $10,000 per employee for the employer to knowingly employ an undocumented worker.
*It got so bad in Houston that (you ready for this) the INS actually came and HELPED the illegal immigrant groups set up areas for day laborers. They helped them organize, and even helped them get more money per hour. Talk about a kick in the butt for legal contractors. I'm like Ed, dead set against it. But remember, we are talking ILLEGAL immigrants here. That word alone tells the whole story. James
*Cheap labor is great when you are paying out, but not-so-great when you constantly have to bid against it. Here in Texas, the availability of cheap labor does nothing but cripple legitimate trades.Not to mention contributing to the "contractor horror stories" file.
*Borders are the invention of the Rich and powerful...The insiders...I do not believe in taking a persons right to migrate to work planetwide!We sure are selfish!near the stream willing to share the pie,aj
*Mr Jack,I have lived and worked all over the world and could'nt agree with you more.Ron
*Mister Jack, please send your address & I will pass it along to several thousand or several hundred thousand illegal aliens here in Southern Calif. Illegal aliens are a problem, like it or not.In California prisons are 25,000+ illegal alien FELONS at a cost of $22,000 a year each. Figure it out and let me know what part of YOUR state wants them. Those figures are several years old, don't know the current price.That is the state prison system, doesn't include County jails. Racialy insensitive Joe H
*If you do not live in a state that borders a foreign country, or if you do not live in a state that spends millions upon millions of taxpayer dollars caring for the illegal aliens, then you do not understand the extent to which the problem has risen.Please understand, we do advocate taking away a persons right to LEGALLY obtain a work visa and coming over here to work. What we object to, vehemntly I might add, is the undocumented, ILLEGAL aliens that are taking our residents jobs, and are being cared for extensively by the taxpayer dollars. We have enough indigent citizens of our state to take care of without the extra burden.James
*Hey Jack,Make your stream the Rio Grande river, and try to make a living in Texas, and then you won't talk so high brow. I don't know what you charge, but I know someone in Texas from across our Southern border who can charge less than you (he doesn't pay income taxes or medicare or property taxes, school taxes, car insurance, liability insurance, W2 witholding taxes, etc, etc,) and I bet you my new truck he can do just as good a job as you can. If he gets caught, they just give him a free ride home across the border. These people here are not just day labor........a lot are very skilled individuals.Compete with that on the scale we do in Texas and California and you might see the reason why your remark strikes a bit naive.I fault no man the right to work. But I don't appreceiate an unfair fight.Ed.
*Unless your Dads Name was Sitting Bull or you Mom was Pocahontias, there's a real strong chance you come from a illegal background. Welcome to America!
*G80104:Well put!There are a few industries in this country that actually RELY on these illegal immigrants such as our Crops, Dairies, and janitorial work.The reason we rely on them is that there simply aren't enough locals willing to work those kinds of jobs. We can't have it both ways, you know. We can't just give them the crappy jobs...that would be slavery, wouldn't it?
*Wow, I saw this post was going to take a sad turn a mile back. Sitting Bull, Pocahontas, SLAVERY?The only thing I have to add is this little yarn. About 2 years ago we had a large hail storm. About 80 percent of the homes in a 20 square mile radius were ready for new roofs. The insurance companies gave the ok and dished out the $. Then came the vultures. The roofing companies who chase these hail storms, rent an abandoned warehouse and call it a shop and then claim to be local, hire illegal day laborers, and go to town. They underbid a crapload of us, did horrible work and left town. After the first winter and all the ice dams that came with it, guess who the homeowners were bitching about. The "local" contractors. The people who have been servicing this area for 30 years. The same people (living in Wisconsin) who beleived that the guy with an Oklahoma accent (really sticks out around here), driving an Oklahoma truck, using day laborers from Texas (Texas plates on the truck and trailer) was actually local, is now the village idiot on the 6 o'clock news telling everyone to beware and really check out your contractor.It's too bad the insurance companies didn't have the foresight to implemet the strict screening process they have now for contractors. Sweet revenge seeing these people have to pay out of their own pocket now to the real local contractors to replace their 2 year old roof.Coincidently, a wind storm last year revealed a good portion only used 2 nails per shingle and did not replace the drip edge. Not a lot of skilled individuals up here.Not that I'm complaining.
*I live in MT where we have long, unprotected borders and immigration problems up the wazzoo from our foreign neighbors.I mean, what the hell, those Indians have their reservations, what for do they need the rest of the state????????? It's not like we didn't buy it fair and square from the French!!!
*This might be the wrong place for my question...but, lemme ask in light of the documented/undocumented worker arguement. Project Labor Agreements (PLA's)...I'm having the hardest time following the "vested interest" in this arrangement. Constructors hate 'em, Unions love 'em but they cover non-union labor (I think) and as much as I understand it (not much), they somehow attempt to control employment practices on a job by job basis that have always been pretty much the sole concern of the employing entity? Can anybody explain to me in real world terms what these things are about?
*Jennings. My understanding of PLA is, ALL government jobs are done at Union wages. Any contractor can bid, but MUST pay union dues & hire through union halls.......it is a mostly political scam. The unions vote Democrat, donate money to Democrat candidates, beat the pavement for the Democrats and when they get elected they agree to these PLAs. The reason given to justify this scam is that it guarantees that there will be no work stoppages on the jobs, and it will save money. The obvious truth is that ONLY unions go on strike and cause work stoppages, and the idea that paying union scale on every job is going to save the taxpayers any money is ludicrous.Currently there is a bridge that will (or won't)be built between Maryland & DC I think, article herehttp://www.washtimes.com/business/default-2001221214719.htmThere was last year here in California a school construction & repair bond issue passed in Santa Ana CA. The Unions worked hard to get it passed & after it did, the school board (by what is believed to be previous arrangement) signed a PLA so the $150,000,000 bond immediately lost between 10 & 20% of it's buying power according to the local newspaper.That is what they computed the additional costs of union only would cost. This, by the way in a school district with majority minority enrollment. Illegals and their children who are citizens as they were born here, hospital bills paid for by you and me . Think about that, a MAJORITY MINORITY enrollment. Local Orange County Supervisors - Republicans did the same thing in exchange for Union support on converting a closed Marine Corp base to airport. Big surprise the supposed Republicans would agree to a PLA in exchange for union support, it's usually a Dem thing. Joe H
*I don't remember anyone mentioning it. Feb JLC has a column on illegals and what you need to do to protect yourself. Could cost you $20K fine per hire.
*There should be no such thing as being an illegal alian.I again say we are being very very selfish.near the stream and willing to have no borders,aj
*Joe! You're just a goldmine! I been getting a lot of the "party line" explanations without the connections...I couldn't make sense of it. I think recent San Francisco Airport construction was PLA and I think they didn't get through it without a few stoppages, so I'm thinking the PLA's maybe promise more than they can practically deliver and we've seen the quick rise and fall of it all? You behind the "Orange Curtain" as we used to say in our wildly liberal high school days? AdirondackJack, I can't help agree with you in the spirit of the thing. I think what's going on is a sense of bad management tinged with betrayal...like, how can we accomodate more when we can't secure standard of living for who's here already. In a world of limited resources, which it is, it's a valid concern. I'd have less of a problem with it if historically the U.S. didn't concertedly and deliberately manipulate the "cheap labor" pool by setting everchanging annual quotas on immigration. It just smacks of corporate interest and convenience at the expense of everyman's (including undocumented workers') peace of mind. Ever notice when the unemployment rate takes a jump...every major news agency runs big stories on the "immigration problem". Seems like we're set up to be pitted against each other.
*Come on guys, Think! Throughout human history there have been the Outsiders and the Insiders. There have always been rules for changing from an Outsider to and Insider. That hasn't changed in millenia.The biggest example on this Board is Homeowner vs Contractor. Posts reflect this Outsider vs Insider all the time, especially in the business section.So, everyone and every country has its' rules for how to get to be a "citizen" or "legal visitor". So, don't go bashing the US or Canada for what is a universal condition.The only difference between North America and others is the economic opportunity here vs the opportunity in most other countries. Want to demonstrate what I say? Try to go to many other countries,UK for example, and work, or preach, or live permanently. In every one, there are major hoops to jump through.
*the hoops should not exist in any part of the world.near the stream believing in offering true equality planetwide,aj
*Speaking of hoops, I once tried to hire a girl from Canada. Finally gave up afer 2 months of red tape. She should of just swam the Rio Grande like half the other people who worked there. She would have been working in a couple of days.I understand the same thing goes for any immigrant from the U.K. or any western European country. I guess if you stand a chance of assimilating into American culture we don't want you.
*I tried to hire an Irish carpenter. It was impossible due to the fact that the US government thought that his trade did not quailify as a profession. He had an immigration lawyer and the whole works. I don't know what happened to him, but I doubt he's working in the US. Ed. Williams
*The above two posts are exactly what I'm yapping about.Let's get rid of borders...near the stream,aj
*In the time I spent in Houston, all I heard was bitching about the illegals...how they steal all the jobs......but come time to hire help to do labor work....all I heard was the works too hard and the pays not enough, until we stopped the ad in the paper, and started stopping at the day labor lots. Fly by nites and carpet baggers steal everywhere. I wish I had the problems of illegals that were willing to do a hard days work for a fair days pay! Instead, I get to deal with hud supported, welfare supported jerks that cry for a job, then bitch the garbage bag is too heavy! In Houston, they took all the glamor jobs like ditch digger and shingle humper. I don't begrudge anyone that simply wants to do a days work. Better than the generational welfare families that never had the idea of bettering themselves. Everytime I had this conversation down there face to face, the arguement was based on prejudice. I'll take a "texican" as a drinking buddy over an "urban cowboy" anyday! Then again....someone said it right off the bat....if ya don't like it...don't support it. Jeff
*Okay, okay.........I get it Jack,I visualize a one world order with no rules and no boundries and no laws to keep the peace because there are no laws to break and we can all share in the beautiful experience and have a Coke and teach the world to sing.Wake up Billy boy......WAKE UP!Come on back to the pack. Or move to Idaho. There's lots of folks there who still smoke themselves into reality.Stop staring into the damn stream. Pull your head out of the sand! I didn't expect this from you.Or maybe.......you should move to Idaho and live in your own bliss. We'll take care of the world. You just go stare into the stream. Have a lemonade. Sit in the shade. We'll take care of the dirty work. I know you don't care to see it.Ed.
*Sounds like ya like man made systems that do harm to those that are not "on the inside" with you. I do not. And...I have no need to move, but would love some hardworking people to move to the Adirondacks. Send all ya can our way.near my stream,ajAnd what's with the smoke crack? Just because I believe that no man has the right to make life harder on another for living a few miles away on this one borderless planet. Listen, more of my belief...there are laws that are needed that follow the dictam, "do unto to others as you would have them do to you" ...They are the basis of my views being expresed here...not your innuedo. Agree to differ maybe but watch the slander pal.
*Howdy, Any of you Texan folk got any sense as to why the wetback problem persists? And would you be so good as to share your knowledge? Do they have little or no work in Mexico? Do they have a minimum wage or any labor standards in Mexico? Is their gov't working to help them in some way that you can tell? Any of you been to Laredo? What about Maquideros(sp) and NAFTA? Or are there endless streams of illegals spilling in and swept up only to come in again? What would be needed to start to get this tiger by the tail? Or is it something a frozen yankeecouldn't get? Just wonderin'... Dan-O
*Dan...wetback?...Not too nice to be using names there white boy.near the stream enjoying the work and company of my mason and his huge Mexican family crew. The best people and subs I will ever work with.ajHow would all you prejudice people like to be put on a planet with a million exact clones of yourself and any two other people you had the right to pick! I enjoy those that are different way more than many of you apparently.
*AJ, you're welcome to your opinion, but you are NOT listening. I will gladly hand out maps to your neck of the words. Please send 100,000 copies to start with and I'll pass them out next week. Send another 100,000 the next week & I'll get rid of those too. That should cover the immediate area, but we'll be needing more for next month.You aren't getting the picture, they are here by the MILLIONS. There are elementary schools here in my city that are 99% Hispanic, non_English speaking kids. The few Anglos that live in those areas and can't leave are raising hell that their kids are beat on at school, aren't learning anything because it's all done to cater to the non-English speakers ect.It is a huge problem, your open borders attitude is fine for YOU right now, but some day you will see your bids being beat on by people with crews of illegals and you'll say "What the hell is going on here?" One of my sons is a painting contractor. He gets beat out of jobs with bids that are less than the cost of the materials. Some day they'll be breathing down your neck too. Joe H
*Hey Jack,My apoligies sir.After shaking off a weeks worth of sawdust and client dealings, I welcome your views of what could be as apposed as to how it really is. It's just tough to see through the realities that I deal with every work week. But that's for me to deal with. I guess my "smokin" remark was based on the "hippie culture" remarks that I read between your lines.Lord knows I smoked my weight in weed years before, and was also at one time a believer in dreams. I'm more cautious now....for better or worse.I guess these days I just try to deal with what is real and not concern myself on what obviously will never be. I try to make the best of what is........not what could or should be. There is truth and knowledge in reality, no matter how ugly it is.There is a famous quote that says someting about - When I was a child I thought as a child -Regards,Ed.
*Ed, in case you'd like the entire text (esp. verse 13): The First Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Corinthians Love 1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. 4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5 doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; 6 rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 7 beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. 8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly, but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
*Jack,I am with you on this one.Ever see those pictures in the history books of help wanted signs that read" Irish Need Not Apply" ?A lot of people love to crap on the immigrant.who built the canals,railroads,manned the steel mills and mined the coal 150 years ago?Immigrants.Personally I would kind of like to import a few more hard working immigrants and DEPORT some of the lazier native born citezens.
*Joe.....Give out the maps Joe...We need more hardworking people. The locals (left looking for work) quit when you let them borrow lunch money for McDonalds or cigarette money. As for lowering the wage rate, then move or get out of the trades if ya can't be competitive. I would think then with you also could have your home built for the cost of materials.I do not believe in closed borders. They are a man's idea, and are not natural. Nature always is hurt by non natural influences. We should allow anyone to work in any part of the world. If we never had the borders, then this porblem would have never happened.near the stream,ajSo move if ya don't like your situation. You could always come up here! LOL..
*AJ, you have no clue. You see your ideal vision of your "near the stream enjoying the work and company of my mason and his huge Mexican family crew. The best people and subs I will ever work with."Do you think the guys telling you it ain't wonderful are all redneck a**holes? We see the thousand for your one. We see the hospital emergency room crowded to overflowing with people who don't speak English and are not going to pay the bill for the service they get. We see the signs in Spanish advertising sign up for Medicare, free neonatal care, free you name it. We live in cities that have areas covered with graffitti we can't read, done by shaved head gangs of Hispanics.Your family of masons may be a hard working bunch, but they have a thousand relatives and kids. They all use public services that are paid for by you and me. I've heard enough of that "they only want to work, they only want a job" crap. They are a huge burden on the taxpayers here in California and other border states. In states all over the country there are areas with huge numbers of Hispanics and they are a problem there too.Your head is in the sand, if you go back to the first post Rick asks "Here in Central Jersey, there are tens of thousands of day laborers looking for work. Any thoughts?"That's "Tens of thousands" not your one little happy family. When there are that many Jack, they will be bidding against you. Bigot Joe H
*Most of what has been said about "illegals" was said about women in the work force. After WWII it came as a surprise that they couldn't get the genie back in the bottle, that Rosie the Riveter wanted the freedom of a living wage while the Pill made the single life more enjoyable. Status quo-keepers saw her as taking the bread out of the mouths of workingmen's families, not to mention that she was destroying traditional values. As a secretary, aka capitalism's house nigger, she was tolerated, but how dare she think she should have a seat at the table?Not unlike those Mexicans keeping peaches affordable, but you'd like them to go home when the season is over, eh?splinter "never been on welfare" groupie
*Hey splints,Thanks for the quote. Nice food for thought.Ed.
*Joe....Like I said...Don't bid against them...Hire them! And Get into a job that needs a college degree. Then you will have it all and quit your whining. You should move. You are under major stress to be so impolite to other people on this planet. How can you want to be above anyone or limit anyone? I am willing to live under the same roof as any of the people you are refering to.. I like all people that can hold a smile with me. I have worked with many Guatamalans...Wonderful men. MY Girl goes to Guatamala on Medical missions twice a year and the thirty of them pay for it out of there own pockets. You need to get out and see the rest of the world Joe...This summer, its off to Madagascar...A few years ago, it was building a home in Curacao...My workers lived in homes with dirt yards...The one boys dad helped me all day of his day off to build a miter cutting chainsaw jig I dreamed up...We cut the steal with a lump hammer and a cold chisel...I had to plead with the guy endlessly to get my lick at cutting a few inches of the cuts...Proud happy people! Went to a dirt floor bar one night and we pulled the speakers outside..cranked up the tunes and danced all night under a tree with tin roof sheets stuck in it...carpet and old easy chairs outside...What a blast.You're not seeing the whole world Joe...Myopia my man...myopia.near the stream wishing I was under that tree,aj
*I work every day with many Mexicans. Some of them are really fine folks,some are not. Sort of like every other group taken in perspective. Seen as a whole,however,I have to agree with Joe H.,there are too many of them taking advantage of the system here.AJ-you know I love ya Bro, but I don't wanna have to move in with ya(too damn cold up there).:-)
*I think maybe we in this country forget how fortunate we are. The last few years have been difficult ones for me but when I start to feel sorry for myself I remind myself of the misery I witnessed in Port au Prince and Guantanamo in 94/95. People fishing through food waste thrown overboard from a ship looking for something to eat, people killing one another over who would get a job, entire familes living in shipping containers, ....... the real possibility of a better life is irresistible and come they will. "There but for the grace of ......"
*yes j and there should be no gates or borders...nothing to cross except the natural land and b Earth that b we all share....No one owns any of it...we just try to selfishly hoard it for ours...Willing to live with the whole planet on the whole planets ability to sink..swim...smile...love live and die...near a more natural stream,aj (no moat around my castle)
*Jack, Splinter and all I am married to a Mexican. I mean she was a illeagal until I married her and processed the paperwork to get her green card. Where she was working there was nothing but illeagals with fake ss cards. But she and a lot of her friends were highly upset because there are alot of illeagal and I mean a lot who been in the this county 17 -18 + years and never wanted to learn english or even care about this country. they even made fun of her called her names because she went to school at night to learn english. in fact when prop 187 was voted on all her illeagal pals wished it WOULD pass yes i wrote WOULD(187 was the prop to stop health benies from illeagals) why? because even they agree that there is to much taken out of there pay to pay for all the illegals who come here just for the med benefits. I hear stories after stories about it. People who come accross the border to get a operation then go back. Like I said in another post they are very knowledgeable about our laws how they can get what they want through govt programs. Now Fed. programs we all pay for. Now as for another question i saw what is the pay scale there well its not to good really. in my wifes town which is outside of guadalahara(spelling) they make about 8 bucks a day. But there houses cost about 20K, they pay for water 1 time a year(cleaning and bathing not for drinking)drinking they buy filtered water at about 50 cents for a 5 gal sparkletts bottle. But what I saw that amazes me is all those folks with new trucks I mean its about a 3 hour flight to guadalahara and another 2 hour drive to her town and theres all these folks and I mean alot of them with new/newer trucks with american license plates HMMMMM aj. splinter and you guys leave the door unlocked on your trucks or vans and help jose out if you really are really concerned because it cost to much to fly out of tj and driveing ..well they can enjoy the view and car pool
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Just curious to know what other contractors are doing about hiring undocumented immigrants(politically correct terminology). Here in Central Jersey, there are tens of thousands of day laborers looking for work. Any thoughts?