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Is it my imagination, or is there an illegal alien or two on every crew out there? It sure seems that way here in North Jersey. Though reluctant to bad mouth these hard working guys who seem to do acceptable quality work, it’s becoming increasingly difficult to look the other way, especially when I’m being underbid on a seemingly regular basis by contractors who employ these guys.
The last job I was on, the G.C. had an illegal doing carpentry and siding, the entire sheet rock hanging crew was from south of the border (I was told this by the sparkler, who was bragging about how cheap these guys were) and the plumber had a laborer who spoke Spanish exclusively.
Obviously the contractors aren’t paying workers comp, liability, payroll taxes or benefits to these guys, everything us legit contractors have to do for our home grown guys. And I’m getting a little bit pissed off about it!
I never got every job that I bid, but lately my average has been dropping off sharply. There are many factors associated with this predicament, but I’m convinced that the cheap help some guys use is a significant part of it. Anybody else out there having the same problem?
Replies
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do you belong to a builder's organization.. an affiliate of NAHB ?
or NAHRI ?
registration, licensing, and a tightening of WC regs has sure helped here in RI
get involved... it's your livlihood...
*MikeAround here there are members of the local NARI chapter who are actively fighting against licensing.Louis
*Welcome to America.
*And yes Phil that happens, but I pre-screen to prevent it from happening much.Louis
*And no I don't speak Spanish.Louis
*Aren't homeowners liable for damage caused by or injury that happens to illegals working on their property? Do most homeowners know this? Of course just because a contractor has an active license and is in good standing with the tax board doesn't mean the workers he uses on every job are legal. Maybe homeowners should be taught to ask workers for ID? How would contractors feel about their crews being carded?
*louis... for the 1st 15 or so years.. the majority of the members / leaders of our RIBA were against any new regs ../ registration../ WCit wasn't until their attitude and the complaints of the generalpublic came together that RI got registration..and it wasn't until all the insurance companies refused to write WC in RI that they started the reform of WC here...all i can say is .. this is way better than it used to be...
*One can always call the INS regarding suspected illegal aliens.Interesting article in JLC couple(?) months ago about employer actions/liabilities when hiring or whether someone is illegal, or maybe.
*Que pasa Phil?I used to live, work and play in no. Joisey...Dan Improvements outa H-Sack...I FEEL YOUR PAIN!!!Using illegals is akin to buying swag..gotta hold both feet to da fire, buyer and seller!!!And no, it aint The American Way, its pure hump and those who exploit illegals whammie da rest of us..customers included! Hard come, easy go, regards,Dan-O
*I have a question. Do the Amish pay taxes when they frame houses? And are they expected to have liability insurance and everything else that a regular contractor does.
*The short answer is no. Because of their religious beliefs they are exempt from FICA taxes, worker's comp.(they don't participate in these benefits either). I believe, however, that they must pay income taxes.They don't personally carry insurance, but if they are doing business with the outside world, they usually have an "English"(their term for a non-Amish)partner. He does the driving, and owns the electric tools that they use, carries the insurance they may be required to carry on the jobs they do. This partner is how they justify getting around the prohibitions their religion has on the use of motorized vehicles and use of electricity.BTW-If the Amish are sued or arrested, they will not actively participate in their defense, although there are organizations that will provide legal aid on their behalf.John
*Hey Jersey,Get used to it. I'm in Texas. You don't think we have any illegal aliens working here do you?No, I don't hire them. I fill out an I9 on everybody I hire, and yes, the unfair competition is hurting my business also. It's not just Hispanics, one of my main competitors is from England. He pays no taxes, hires his hourly carpentry crew as subs and his business flourishes.As long as it's OK for the builders to hire these guys, they'll do it. Make it a crime for the builders to hire illegals as subs and we might get some relief. Until then, forgetaboutit.Don't give up or give in. Hey, I've learned a lot of Spanish just to communicate with the roofers, painters and drywall guys.Que lastima!Good luck,Ed.
*JRS that's what I've been hearing, but since I didn't know it for fact I didn't want to say anything. We haven't had a large influx of illegals in our area, that I know of. (Louisville) But a lot of people are griping about the Amish building up here. And that's what they're griping about. The unfair advantage of not paying comp and taxes. But they still use all the modern tools techniques to make a profit. Nailguns, saws, forklifts,etc. and still being able to under cut bids. It seems they have the same advantage as the contractors that hire illegals. Instead of being criminals they're using loop holes to get over.
*It is a crime to hire illegals.
*bobl,But it's not a crime to hire their employer. All the employer has to say is "Hey, the guy gave me a SSN#.......I had no idea.Make the customer liable and you might get something done.But if that happens, we'll have fewer tradesmen to pour concrete, put on a new roof or anyone to hang drywall. It seems that very few of the young people coming up these days want to get their hands dirty. But then those that do might get the proper pay they deserve. But then there goes the building boom. Higher prices for labor. What's a guy to do? (just kidding......I'd love to see the bootleggers get the boot).Ed.
*ED"Make the customer liable and you might get something done."Interesting, but are you SURE that you want that.If the clients neck is on the line he is going to do what he needs to protect himself. That include continous and free access to the workspace to challenge your employees. And if he finds one that he an SS card that he thinks might be forged then he might just "fire" your employee.And likewise he would have to question all of the subs that you bring on the job.
*What (some of) you people are talking about (spot checks of Spanish speaking people for Green Cards) constitutes racial profiling and Jim Crow justice. You might want to contact the New Jersey State Police and State Supreme Court Justice Peter Verniero and get their takes on the subject and see how it worked for them. As long as we are conducting spot checks why not check out people who last names ends in vowels for Mafia connections and check the Indians and Irish like me for drinking problems. Besides I think that's just what we need in this industry more regulations and more government intervention (yeah right.)You know it's my empirical observation that the MAJORITY of the Hispanics in the building trade are LEGAL ALIENS. Yeah sure there are lots of illegal aliens but if you think that they are the sole reason that competition is tightening up and you are losing jobs you are wasting your time on a issue you have little if any direct control over. Sure, complain to your trade organizations, congressional representatives and senators and let them take action (and wait to see how long it takes). But complain about the contractors who use and exploit illegals and not the illegals themselves. Those contractors are the real criminals. While they are stealing from you indirectly they are blatantly stealing from those illegals leaving them exposed with no insurance in the case of injury and/or stealing Social Security. I would even ask my representatives to ease immigration restrictions and requirements for any immigrants looking to work in the building trades. In the meantime while everyone whines and complains there are a lot of other contractors out there who will take other actions like developing better marketing, better job management (TQM), better customer research, and better training for the employees they have. And they will beat your pants off in the market place. You know when I look at my workweek this week as English speaking born-and-raised American I was in the minority all week long on every project venue I was at (Westchester County and the NYC metro and suburban regions). While the dominant language I did hear was Spanish I also heard Chezk, Polish, Russian, Portuguese (Brazilians) and Irish (it might as well be a foreign language it's sometimes so hard to understand). I thank God they are all here working hard because if they weren't where would be getting our workforce from? If you think labor costs are out of sight right now just try and imagine what they would be like with out any immigrants. I read somewhere a while back that the average age of a carpenter was 42 and that number continues to rise every year. If immigration is curtailed or restricted in anyway our industry will become a wasteland and contractors will turn cutthroat competing for employees and labor costs will skyrocket. What a mess!I think if you want to really be smart about this you should learn Spanish (or some other language but I think Spanish is the best bet) and hire the legal aliens and build for the future. I've proudly used Spanish speaking legals and Nepalese Sherpas (go figure and don't even try to think about learning to speak Tibetan) in the past and I will continue to do so in the future. I would sincerely recommend to anyone with any aspirations of getting into construction management in addition to getting "real" computer literacy that they learn to speak a second language (Spanish being the best choice). Most of the rhetoric here just sounds paranoid and escapist to me and lacks a clear viewpoint of the greater big picture. Not seeing the forest through the trees so to speak.
*Hey Jerry; did you see your shadow or not? And say "Hi" to Mom for me.
*Hey Sonny my Mom was asking about ya just the other day. I need to give her an updated report on your ticker. While I'm here did you happen to read this discussion: - Ken Fisher "$100,000 For Cabinets Alone? Her MB Closet" 5/3/01 4:05pm The fellow there is talking about a house in your neck of the woods.
*Jerry, the doc said my ticker is fine. That house in Port Royal is on the Gulf - high, high rent area. People are buying 1-2 million dollar houses there and other areas along what's called Gulf Shore Blvd. to knock them down and put up those $10-$15M houses. The CEO who sold Merrilate Cabinets to Masco, I think, just had a $17M house built in Port Royal on Gorden Drive (the Gulf), with about a one block driveway with a waterfall on each side dropping as you get to the house.Anyway, I'll call you tomorrow night. Incidentally, Art (last name ?? - have to dig out the email) asked to put "The Process" on Splash, a web site for SoftPlan and on your site, northeasternhomes.net. I said fine, and assumed he knows you. Had to do it over into Word for Windows to email it to him.
*I think you mean Flash not Splash unless you are refering to a "splash page" which would make no sense to me. Unless again the web site he was talking about is named "Splash" (that strikes me as a little bit more logical). See when you start trying to talk "web speak" things get all jumbled up and you confuse the heck out of me. And speaking of Flash my sister-in-law Maggie does the Flash for the Stanley Tools site.
*It is SPLASH. A users group for SoftPlan users.Billy
*It stands for SoftPlan Links, Advice, Support, Help.Billy
*Thought it might be something like that but a quick search using http://www.dogpile.com didn't turn up any leads for me. See that what he does to me all the time. He forgets URLs or misspells them. He drives me nuts. (But then again I write footnotes on Christmas cards so maybe it's just me)
*Meanwhile, back on the subject........Bill,I don't really think it would work. And I agree that you can't spot check everybody on the job for proof of citizenship, it's just not fair. This is a free country, and there is a price we pay for that.Ed.
*I don't think anybody here has taken issue with hiring legal aliens - regardless of their ethnicity. We're discussing illegal aliens - non-citizens without an I-9 card. (Why are they still called green cards? The I-9's I've seen lately are all white!)Interesting that you see Spanish to be such a clear cut choice as a second language. Where we live in Northern California, a large number of the tradespeople who don't speak English speak Russian, while most native Spanish speakers also speak some English. So far I've only amassed a Russian vocabulary of 2 words: chicken and watermelon. I really gotta work on that.
*You call it loopholes......they call it religion and a way of life.....a small difference....but a big one too! I don't think they found a loophole just to under bid you. Jeff
*Lisa, What a coincidence, chicken and watermelon are english words too, what do they mean in Russian?Rickp.s.what's new with the four year old?
*If I had my preferance I would work with only those from another land be it south of the border or otherwise. You see, most Americans have never been out of this country and so many think the country owes them something just because they exist which is not true at all.This is a land of opportunity, except many from here don't know it.I am always amazed at how many from other countries come here and prosper, often times more than I. Now, a lot of American types subs feel that forienigers are taking work away from them when in fact the truthn is they do not want to work anyway (just need enough to get by-going no where and getting there fast) and those others, often not aliens are here to work hard and make money for themselves and send money to their families.Here most Americans want it all now and they credit themselves to the hilt to look like they prosper. It is quite common that a first time home buyer can hardly scrape up a down payment-check out Greece-and qualify based on income debt ratios but forienigers buckle down, save up and try t pay as much cash as possible.The south of the boarder people I work with, and pay the same, come on time, work hard and late do not complain, fix something if they make a mistake without complaining even if it is the builder who is wrong etc. etc. Plus, I do not find their beer bottles, old tires and other junk scattered around the job. They have caused the American crews to tighten up because they have no choice. As well, they do not chase me around on early Friday like I have the last dollar on earth. I am surprised at how many have thier own workmans comp compaired to Americans.An American sub needs to tighten up and shut up and do a good job. I would also recommend saving up some bucks and taking a trip south of the border. It is a delightful experience but you will appreciate what you have a lot more. If you are a contractor you should be very please, and give great respect to those of such employ. Just today I meet with some people from Brazil aboutcleaning my home. The last girl I worked with was a high school drop out. Her deal was if I have to get on my knees to clean floors, wash windows, water plants etc. in the same 3 hours it is more.Think on it!
*CA, I agree with your points. I can see both sides of the "illegal" problem. On one side, it's almost sick to advertise our culture and everything that goes along with the opportunities America offers, sort of like holding up the most delicious dessert available, and then castigate those who try, legally or not, to try to get the same. We with everything we could possibly want still bitch about this and bitch about that. We've become a society of "victims." It's human nature though. I know a few Asians, Latin Americans, and even my own parents who came here from Greece as teenagers, legally, who worked their rear ends off, but didnt' blow their money on frivolous "stuff", instead saving it to buy or start their own businesses and send their kids to college - and all they time not once complaining about America. As with anything in life; we can bitch about what's wrong or we can be appreciative what's right - the half glass full or half glass empty thing. Sometimes this illegal alien problem indeed reminds me of being appreciative of what I have here and thinking of their countries, what they must content with. I too, if in their shoes would be climbing over the wall when ever the chance was available. I ask, who wouldn't? Talk about illegal aliens, in Florida we have more than our fair share, yet we still manage to out gun our competitors who hire them, or use subs that do. It's done thru business strategy and tactics - all legal and all indicative of those other business owners doing the exact same thing. I've learned in my years that businesses fail or succeed based upon "internal" foundations, cultures, and strategies, not "external" influences. America is known for it's propensity and ability for 1st class "innovation?" Innovate!
*Sonny,I appreciated your reply very much. Did not realize you were so closely connected to Greece. Many of my thoughs above were not fully developed. The referance I was making to Greece was meant to convey the differance in interest rates for home ownership and the minimal down payment, by comparison, required here. In Greece it seems that a home is completed over a long period of time, while living there, in order to avoid high interest rates etc.
*Good points Sonny and C.A.It's always been like this....The illegals are worth bitching about, but it's ultimatly the employer your angry with. He ain't playing fair. All you can do other than the excellent tips posted here is to advertise by mouth the practices of that employer.We had a hardwood floor sub who worked out a deal with the workhouse (jail) to use guys. They got paid next to nothing. The other floor subs could not compete. He stopped the practice only when it he was shamed into changing. Now, on the flip side, I had a painting sub make an extrodinary statement to me. He has 3 Bosnians working for him. He said: "I will never hire an American again!"
*Ed, Check out JLC a couple months ago (don't have it handy) There was an article about hiring and how to protect yourself as an employer. Just getting an SSN wasn't enough. It was also explained how to ask for info without being accused of being biased. It would be harder for the customer to checkout everyone's employee to see if they were legal.BobL
*Comp no offense at all taken. One of the things all small business owners as ourselves have to remember is since globalization has become so prominent (for lack of a better word), we have developed two major distinct adversaries not counting the incompetent and sleazy peers within our industry. Those two are (1) beauracracy and (2) big business, (and their subsidiaries) the new enemy. Big business no longer has loyalty to the USA. Too many have become parasites whereas each and every country represents nothing more than a "host" from which they can extract blood. They are also on the forefront of those advocating to Congress to "legalize" all current illegals. I'll give $100 for each large company enploying illegals that get a visit from immigration, versas receiving a buck back for each small business getting the visit. But I'd be rich real quick, and especially since they would "net" more for less paperwork, and more in fines from big business than small. I guarantee you if it wasn't for big business putting pressure on Congress and Bush "not" to do it, the National Guard will be manning our Mexican border. Each of us has to get sharper, more innovative and can count only on each other for help/advice/etc. since obviously even our trade associations will/can do nothing about the problem. It's like our rear ends are hanging out on a limb with everyone except us owning a sling shot. That's just another reason why each of us have to develop ourselves and respective businesses as "the" brand to use in our respective locales. Many of our competitors use - let me call them - less than desirable (from a personal appearance standpoint) - for demolition in the condos we remodel. We don't. The reason we don't is that too many times clients have said to Tom, "I hope you guys don't use (those) kind of people for the demo work. We really don't want them in our home." Tom honestly replies that we don't but because we don't it costs us more money to use "regular" people, and they know what he means my "regular" people. Of course, that goes for white trash also. Of course, that's fine for remodeling. I don't know about new construction or commercial where employee "visibility" is less of a concern.Anyway, like I said earlier, we just gotta innovate. BTW Comp, if I used my real first name (Xenophon), you'd know I wasn't Italian or Polish. Xenophon was tutored by Aristotle, and in turn tutored Alexander the Great. He was a general, historian and writer. "Xeno" means strange or stranger and of course "...phone" means sound, while Lykos, pronounced "Lekos" in Greek, but Likos by American pronounciation, means wolf, so I guess I'm a strange sounding wolf. Ahhooooo! Born and raised in Chicago, BTW.There's my trivia for the day.
*LOL - you got me! Don't know how to spell the Russian versions - only say them. They sound like: arbus (watermelon) and couritsa (chicken).The 4 year old turned 5 last week; he's still hoping for the monkey, but is starting to like the idea of tipping over the flagpole just as well. :-)
*bobl,To me it's simple.......I don't hire illegals because I'm trying to run an up and up business. I know many who do, but it just don't seem like the right thing for me.I agree that everybody has the right to work, but I think that eveybody should follow the letter of the law even if they don't agree with it.That just seems like the right thing to do.You know what they say........integrity is when you do the right thing even when nobody's looking.Ed.
*b ".....integrity is when you do the right thing even when nobody's looking."Ju got it mon!
*Guys Here in So. Cal like Im sure the same in Texas and most border states the illeagals are everywhere in all facets of work everything from bus boys to flipping burgers. But One thing i know is there is usually a group of them out in front of the home depot. Here most of the guys definately stay away from them as homeowners should also. They may be illeagal but theyre not stupid they know the laws as well or better than most americans. They have been known to get picked up for a day job, "get hurt" and then SUE the shorts off who ever hired them. so even if your a homeowner, hack or someone who needs a hand cleaning there job site beware dont take the short route pay tyhe bucks and be protected.its just like the ol'saying you can pay me now or pay me later
*Ed,Some how I think we're in violent agreement. None of my comments were directed at you as an employer. Just talking the issue.BobL
*bobl,No doubt about it. It's a sore issue with those of us in the border states. Like an itch you can't scratch. Just very bothersome. I'd love to find a way to solve it, but it'll take some serious work. I haven't seen or heard a solution yet that has merit.Ed.
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Is it my imagination, or is there an illegal alien or two on every crew out there? It sure seems that way here in North Jersey. Though reluctant to bad mouth these hard working guys who seem to do acceptable quality work, it's becoming increasingly difficult to look the other way, especially when I'm being underbid on a seemingly regular basis by contractors who employ these guys.
The last job I was on, the G.C. had an illegal doing carpentry and siding, the entire sheet rock hanging crew was from south of the border (I was told this by the sparkler, who was bragging about how cheap these guys were) and the plumber had a laborer who spoke Spanish exclusively.
Obviously the contractors aren't paying workers comp, liability, payroll taxes or benefits to these guys, everything us legit contractors have to do for our home grown guys. And I'm getting a little bit pissed off about it!
I never got every job that I bid, but lately my average has been dropping off sharply. There are many factors associated with this predicament, but I'm convinced that the cheap help some guys use is a significant part of it. Anybody else out there having the same problem?