I haven’t got to building my dreamhouse yet. Unfortunately the design is still languishing; I’m on my third designer now. When we hired each designer we had some references and they seemed to have good work histories but so far there have been gaps with each of them where months have gone by with zero progress.
I’m hopeful we’ll eventually have a design and will find someone to build our home. As much as I’d like to GC it, we’ll need to have pro do it. My question is this:
What is the best way to ensure the work progresses in a timely manner? Is it contractual language? Some particular trait I should look for? Bonus payments? Something else?
Replies
I'm on my third designer now.
It's hard for someone to give you what you want if you don't know yourself. You got your list together?
http://grantlogan.net/
I probably shouldn't mentioned that I'm on my third designer because it had the potential to sidetrack the thread. Here's the story: #1 came recommended. I saw some of his work and he oversold his capabilities (my fault). #2 did a good job of putting our ideas together and we looked like we were going somewhere but he became possessive of the design and didn't want to make changes or explain why not. He was a design/builder and I decided we had a long process in front of us and it was going to be too difficult with someone that wasn't willing to talk. (I just didn't foresee this character trait of his). #3 has a great portfolio and experience, we've provided him with lots of stuff but there hasn't been much progress.
So, I'm looking for ideas on how to get a good job finished in a timely manner.
Usually money is a pretty good motivator.....also in the economy we are in you would think people are eager to get jobs.John
J.R. Lazaro Builders, Inc.
Indianapolis, In.
"#2 did a good job of putting our ideas together and we looked like we were going somewhere but he became possessive of the design and didn't want to make changes or explain why not. He was a design/builder"if you are a builder ( your screen name....) why did you hire a design/build guy to do design only?"I decided we had a long process in front of us and it was going to be too difficult with someone that wasn't willing to talk. (I just didn't foresee this character trait of his)"What is his version of this?
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I'm confused.
Are you trying to motivate a designer or the builder?
"...to ensure the work progresses in a timely manner?" indicates theworking builder, as does the thread title, but most of your comments are revolving around the designer(s)...
A lot of the time, delays are caused by poor communiccations abilities of the client or both.
I have a job now where the plumbing is held up because thecustomer has spent nine months deciding on a toilet and researching all 300 options in great detail.
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
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Excellence is its own reward!
Seems like the main problem is a lack of communication.
If you want to motivate an architect or designer, there's a couple of things to do.
1. Set a firm drawing completion date in their services contract.
2. Ask for a progress set of drawings every two weeks and an invoice for those two week's worth of work.
3. Pay the invoice you requested each time you pick up a set of drawings. Clients that pay regularly get the best service and the most attention.
4. Answer every question they come up with as soon as possible to the best of your ability in explicit detail to keep them moving forward.
5. Ask leading questions that make them go beyond yes and no answers.
When paying invoices, make sure that you're moving toward a complete working set of drawings or you'll burn through the design budget with nothing to show for it.
A few responses to what's been posted so far.
I'm not a professional builder, I pots around some. Sorry if my screen name threw you off.
I don't really know what the design/builder thought when we dropped him. Here's an example of what we were running into: we wanted swinging french doors into our bedroom, he wouldn't do it, said they look stupid. No discussion. His way or no way. My house, I paid my bill and walked.
I'd love to have designer #3 make more progress (and I appreciate "boiler's" suggestions) but let's assume I finally get a well designed/well specified plan and then I hire a GC. How do I motivate the GC to move the project along?
Swinging French doors into a bedroom would look stupid!
;-)
Designers, especially design/builders, have a responsibility to save clients from their own bad taste. I'm not really saying you have bad taste, but he can't afford to put out something that looks bad or strange. In effect, every project is a portfolio piece. When designers or builders put out substandard work it comes back to haunt us.
So a client who doesn't want the designers "design eye" but just a drafter isn't that great to work with. You might have better luck going to a lumberyard where somebody can just draft what you're thinking. That's not meant to be rude, just to say that maybe you're working with the wrong kind of designer.
Along those lines, if you find a builder you like and trust there shouldn't be any need to "push the job along," other than a payment schedule. Plan on an extra 20% time and budget to make sure you don't get backed into a corner, have weekly meetings, but don't worry about dangling a carrot. Stay out of the way and let the builder do his job. THAT will help move the job along.
I will have to agree with your designer it may look alright but what about your privacy.
ANDYSZ2WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
Doors with blinds in the glass.
OK, I really derailed this thread by mentioning my design issues.
What I really would like to hear about is what people have found are the best ways to keep the construction of a new home progressing. Are there fair and logical ways to have win-win incentives?
Do like some commercial jobs that pay a bonus for coming in ahead of the completion date
If there's a bonus clause in the contract, is it fair to have a penalty clause as well?I've heard that legally, you could be on shaky ground if you try to enforce a penalty clause in a contract that also doesn't have a bonus / early completion clause.
There well could be- but it might make the builder jittery- worrying that changes might slow the completion date.
Bruce, I would have fired the designer too. If he was going to be more concerned with his "design reputation", as Mike suggests, then your list of wants and needs, he should have made that clear upfront and not wasted any of your time or his. I would have not been happy paying that bill. It sounds like a copout to me...he's forcing you to bail on him and he gets away, collecting some hourly fees and gives you some unusable design work.You may have done something to trigger his exit. You don't sound too demanding or whacky, but perhaps you are.Anyways...back to your question. Interview three GC's and/or builders. Request the interview and clearly explain that you are seeking a custom builder and are interested in exploring them from a compatibility perspective. Tell them that if you feel comfortable, you'll agree to consider them for your project and will work with them in any capacity that they normally work. This is a different approach to what you are presently doing. Currently, you are attempting to create a set of plans and have the builders bid on it. That is not a wrong way to do things but obviously something you are doing isn't working. By changing your approach, you will probably select a GC who will guide the design process and followup with the build contract. Don't take this as an insult, but you don't possess what it takes to get the first job done...so I doubt that you would be good at getting the subsequent jobs done. Designers are much easier to control or "manipulate" than subcontractors or GC's! If you think you are having a hard time now...just wait...Make sure you are firm in your request for firm timelines. Tie them to payment schedules. Verify the GC's claims of his past timelines. Use a bank construction loan, even if you have the cash on hand. The bank draws force the GC to perform and document their performance. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
jim... maybe one of his designers just got a new version of his CAD program.... now that would slow things downMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"now that would slow things down"LOL! Have you been spying on me?!!! Sometimes I spend an hour to do something as simple as resizing a door! Now that you mention it...all the doors in a house will have to be the same size because that's all I know how to do! Seriously, after getting this Chief program, I do believe that software limitations are often driving the design process. I used to see weird things with CAD generated plans and wonder why an architect or designer would draw such an ugly item.....now I'm doing it too! Some of the detailing is impossible and simple things like dimensioning turns into nightmares. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
i told you i joined Dan Bauman's group ... ChiefExperts.com... they can solve your bumps in the road pretty fast
i remember driving to Maine with version 9 on a big complicated victorian.. so my software dealer could give me some one-on-one
i've got X1 loaded but i haven't hardly looked at it... still working in 10.08a
my brain is all wrapped around digital SLR's right now... i've got two design/build jobs comming up... one is waiting for some owner decisions
one is a previous customer who wants some more additions
one nice thing about designing in 3d.. you really can't desing something that can't be built, since you are designing in a scale of 12" = 1 ft.. as soon as you put the 3d camera on it, you can see if you got it right or notMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I'm working in 11.4. The latest patch is only available on the Chief forum.There are lots of pros and cons about 11.4. Most of the cons are about re-learning but most of the pros are about greater functionability. Running these programs is just another form of torture and requires a lot of time to learn the workarounds. It takes diligence and training. I know I need more training. I did the one on one thing and will go back occasionally, but I don't want it to be an expensive tech support thing...which is what my first attempt at it turned into. One of the things that I'm not sure of is about the software itself. I'm getting a lot of weird things happening and I'm not sure if it's a bug in the program, a bug in MY program, or a problem with my hardware: either it's not adequate or compromised in some way. I won't figure this out till I load the program on another machine. By the way....what is SLR? And...what do you mean "designing in a scale of 12" =1'?" A lot of times, when I switch to 3d, I see something that is unbuildable. Maybe I'm not doing something right. I'm going to have to force myself to go through those training tapes that you've suggested. I feel my mind glazing over right now just thinking about it though. I might borrow some A.D.D. meds from a friend... Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
dSLR.. digital Single Lens Reflex.. in other words
after 30 years with 35mm.. i switched to digital about 7-8 years ago.... but it was all point & shoot...
just before Christmas i took the plunge and bought a DSLR witha nice 18-135mm lens
but.... as with all things digital.... it only opens Pandora's Box.. now i have to learn how to work with dSLR, how to catalog my pics, how to process them, and how to store & transport them....
so .. another good excuse to stay away from version X1 in Chief
BTW... the pro photogs love IMac......
of course the big deal with CAD is the graphics card.. and single vs. dual ( or quad ) monitors
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
hey.. i saw you were looking at Macs for your next upgrade
do you know if you will have any compatibility issues with iMac & Chief ?
ask the question on one of the forums
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I don't think I've seen anyone in Chieftalk using a Mac that I remember. My understanding was that Mac had both systems now. It will be something I check into before I plunge. Thanks for the alert. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Your design issues do appear to be THE issue.when a person finds one designer hard to work with I figure that the designer just has too big of an ego, but when three in a row are not accomadating you, it is likely that there are greater issues.I brought up the possibility, hinting that you have a problem communicating or maybe demanding the impossible, and you want to move on without disccussing that possibility.HmmmI'll admit I may ne totally wrong beause you are giving very little to go on. Money is all it normally takes to motivate progress, but that is not working for you so there IS definitely something going on.
Shoot, maybe you have bad breathe. Maybe you are too far out of town. Maybe you spend 2/3rds of thetime preaching to them. Darned oif I know for sure, but from the little you give me to worek with, you are a hard client. The third designer was astute enough to pick up on it and is pursuing other work where he feels he has a chance of satisfying the client.I'd say that about a third of the time, I get clients with ideas of what they want that are bad ideas or things that just won't work at all- period. Most of the time, I am able to educate them. A few are just not workable and depending on the circuma=stance, I might politely explain why i can't work with them or I might just feel like blowing them off by telling them their frech door idea looks stupid. I probably would never do that, but I can understand feeling like it.
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Piffin -- You're right; you don't have enough to go on to analyze my challenge in getting my house designed. It wasn't my intention to discuss that part of the project. I wanted to hear from builders how to keep the construction of a new house moving along. I've heard some good ideas, such as quick decisions, sticking with well specified plans, being available, and having regular conversations. I appreciate the benefit of others' experience.
OK then.Why do YOU think this latest designer is getting no work done?
What does HE say about it?gotta know things like that to answer your Q
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Piffin -- The latest designer says he's buried right now but will be able to work on our project "soon". I'm looking for a Timberframe design and not everyone can do them. This guy is very experienced, creative, and connected. We've fed him a lot of info. When asked if he needs more/less/different he says he's good now and just needs to clear some things and get to my job. As I've said several times, my concern isn't about getting this designer to progress the job, I believe he will. I was looking for ways to have a successful build.
Most timberframe companies do their own in house design work, but you are working the other way around be sure that the designer undeerstand the problmes that are included with timberframes.If he is experienced with stick framing only then expect another delay while the timber frame company re-designs things to make them workable.
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He's very experienced with TF design but is independent and works with several frame companies and several SIP companies. I'm optimistic that this arrangement will allow the best results.
Geat.Patience might be all you need then
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I think the discussion of why you can't get the design done is significant and pertinent to the topic. It indicates a track record for getting a task done. There are about 100 tasks on a house and if you have trouble getting the first task off the ground, it's very likely that history will repeat itself on the ensuing 99 tasks. You're searching for incentives instead of searching for fundamental building blocks in the process. It's kinda like training the dog's tail and hoping the head and body will follow it. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
"What I really would like to hear about is what people have found are the best ways to keep the construction of a new home progressing."
easy.
make the big decisions while it's all still on paper.
stick to the prints.
make the small decisions quickly.
pay attention but stay out of the way and pay on time.
customers are responsible for most of the delays.
make all your choices before U start ... then make the rest immediately.
pick it and stick with it.
all these Q's about getting the GC to build faster forget one thing ...
most don't get paid unless it's built.
if a GC could bid it at 6 months and build it in one ...
he would!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
"customers are responsible for most of the delays.make all your choices before U start ... then make the rest immediately."I have acustomer who has now spent close to nine months researching toilets and trying to decide which one.
meanwhile his wife is wondering why the bathroom insn't finished yet.Worst customer I've ever had.
He's about to be fired as soon as I finish this portion.
No way am getting into the kitchen with him
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I say have a complete set of plans, no change orders at all, nothing different from the plans, so make sure your foundation design is right, no change order at all.then go hire the most expenseive building in town that been in business over thirty years and employed over fifty people.you pay for what you getmy favorite was; On time, on money, on quality- pick two.two ways to screw up concrete 1) concrete driver 2) concrete finisher
A designer needs to accommodate the client's needs based on their expertise, experience and talents. Sometimes the issue is not asking the right question to get to the specifics of the needs of the client, and, instead, the conversation ends up being one of personal preferences which can often end up a headbutting match. Maybe French doors are bad, and maybe the designer was actually correct, but saying 'they are stupid' and not continuing a dialog with the client seems to me that they, indeed, were not a good person to hire for design work.Conversely, if you have a very strong idea of what you want, perhaps you don't want/need a designer, but rather a talented draftsman who can simply translate your wants/needs more directly.
Yeah, that's what I said.
You just said it better.
Some master suite entries can look good with a double door as an entry. See here. The master suite is entered straightaway down the hall, and a 4068 paired door (each door a two-panel) is used as its entry.
View Image
I did not use the word "french" because that to me means glass doors, maybe 10- or 15-lite. That would be bad design.
I agree that the OP needs to hire a house draftsman, if he wants to run the design show.
I am always baffled by folks who think that their designs and tastes in house architecture is so unique that they need to start with a clean sheet of paper. There are literally hundreds of thousands of house plans available out there for purchase, and the internet has made them so easy to see and shop for. Furthermore, most all the plans service offer to make modifications tailored to one's needs.
Sure it looks OK to have double doors to a master suite. But, 4-0? So every time you enter the room you have to either squeeze through a 2-0 opening, or throw both doors open? Bzzz. Bad design.
As I said above, French doors are glass doors. Double doors are double doors. Sometimes you have French double doors, sometimes you don't.
For anything but the most boring, simple city lot I wouldn't use stock plans except as a point of departure, and I have found it actually takes more time to make a set of stock plans fit an "interesting" site. Easier to just get the program and budget from the clients and design to suit.
To each his own, Mike. That house was designed for a couple, and no one else. The guest bedrooms, two of them, are rarely if ever used, and are on the upper floor of the house. It's like a bespoke suit.
The house is a showcase for the owners' art, mostly Asian rugs and constructions in rugs and fabrics. Every piece of furniture in the place was commissioned to be built for the home, with its location, lighting, and surroundings considered. Two corridors intersect at right angles in the house on its main floor, each with windows lighting the ends. The direct view into the MBR suite is intentional. The doors are rarely closed.
I agree Gene. To each his own should be stamped on every designer's forehead! There are people who love french doors and would put them on their bedrooms. They'd create the privacy needed with fabric and it would be lovely. I've had clients ask for full louvered doors on their bedrooms! ....Okay....Whatever....you're paying the bill! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
mike .. saw you got published this month... looked at the pics.. gotta go back and read what you wrote
congrats !Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
We had swinging french doors opening outward from our bedroom. I always though they were cool. French doors don't HAVE to have glass - ours didn't.
They sure made moving furniture easy!
French doors ARE doors with glass.
You had a set of double doors.
"French doors don't HAVE to have glass - ours didn't."You have a strange definition of french doors
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Buy a lot of new home plan magazines, then get something like SoftPlan Lite and design it yourself.
I did and probably saved many of thousands of dollars in the process. It still took a long time, but it was worth it.
Custom Architecture plans are very expensive.
Regards,
Roger
Since no one seems very interested in answering your question without being tongue-in-cheek, let me give it a shot:
I moonlight on the side (regular job = architect) drafting site plans and occasionally designing a small addition, garage or house for both, people I know and those who are referred to me.
Generally I don't see myself as a great designer; I do relatively nice design, responsive to needs, codes, conventions and whatever the client wants, for a known budget, with regard to site conditions, local conditions -- you see what i'm getting at: design is nothing more than problem solving with a set of criteria. Some designers are selfish, glorified artists, who would rather burn their design than see it changed. Unless you have a soft spot in your heart for that, stay away from them if you ever want to see your project completed on time and budget, btw. Of course there are all kinds in between too, but let's just stick with my type for now.
Last project I designed on the side was a house near Patoka Lake in Indiana. Client was a friend's parents. Their idea of budget was $75 a sq. ft. My idea, after talking with thier proposed builder from the area, was $120 a sq. ft. So lesson #1 is that setting some kind of clarification on what you can spend is pretty important.
It was not important in that project to worry about the cost as it turned out, because the client had a pretty fixed idea of what they wanted to build. I'm not sure how they decided that the cost difference was worth it, but they sketched out the plan with basic dimensions, and I squeezed everything I could to make it still work for the program. This resulted in them being happy (so far as I know) and me having enough info to draw what they wanted. Ultimately it is up to the builder to give them the final cost.
Lesson #2 is that the builder is the most important person relative to the cost of the project, because I'm betting most designers have a very, very limited understanding of what thing cost in the real world. Try to find a designer who has some hands on experience (such as myself) or at least a concept (they've actually had things built before) and they'll know a bit more about what you can afford relative to the design and your intent. I can say it will cost $65 a sq. ft. all day, but it won't mean a thing when your contract to build is between you and a the GC. And if you be realistic about the general cost up front, obviously that will reduce the number of financial headaches you encounter along the way, and you might actually get what you wanted and designed all along. Happy day when that happens!
Many times for me, putting the first line down on the paper is what's difficult. Relative to the designer, anything you can give them that outlines what you would like is helpful. Magazine pictures, samples, stock floor plans, whatever inspires you is bound to inspire and give the designer a start (if they're like me). If they're the selfish unapproachable type, they don't need your ideas, because the design is all about them, not you....remember, stay away from them, unless you like S&M.
As far as inspiring a GC? I don't think you should have to. If you have a nicely designed house with nice details and a look that kills, and good GC would love to take a crack at it. Good GCs like the challenge of doing something well and getting paid for it (look at union workers -- just kidding). Seriously though, check the references and ask them about their experiences with the particular contractor. Use your gut feeling and make sure you LIKE the GC. You will not have fun working with someone you don't like. With people you like, they can screw up a little and you'll still end up okay. With people you don't like, that just aggravates the situation. and relax, because things will go wrong. A good GC will be able to handle that work around those things that go wrong. Paying on time helps too, because despite anything anyone might say, money talks -- loudly. Put don't put down too much in advance unless you're REALLY confident that it pays off for you. A good, financially stable GC should not require a big down payment. Contracts are really only as good as the people agreeing on them, so beware of the "I'll just cover my a$$ in the contract and it should protect me." It won't. Attorney's fees will cost you more than anything in the long run trying to execute your contractual language. Keeping records and communicating in writing is good for everyone involved as well.
Well, that's quite a ramble, but I'll conclude with this: I charged my friend's parents $500 to draw plans, elevations and a section of their house in Patoka. Attached are a couple examples of what that gets you. I think a very reasonable cost for a decent set of drawings that include a bit more, say door & window schedules, details, more sections (especially with stairs) you should be able to find someone who'll do it for $2,000 or so, probably hourly. We don't have to have residential designs stamped around here by an RA, so if you find an accolyte, make sure they've earned their reputation with more than an education. If you can't find someone, give me a shout and send some pictures of the site. I'd love to have the chance.
linden.... nice plans ... what program do you use ?
and ... <<<< I charged my friend's parents $500 to draw plans, elevations and a section of their house in Patoka. Attached are a couple examples of what that gets you. I think a very reasonable cost for a decent set of drawings that include a bit more, say door & window schedules, details, more sections (especially with stairs) you should be able to find someone who'll do it for $2,000 or so, probably hourly. We don't have to have residential designs stamped around here by an RA, so if you find an accolyte, make sure they've earned their reputation with more than an education. If you can't find someone, give me a shout and send some pictures of the site. I'd love to have the chance.>>>>
why do you undervalue your work ?... we do design/build... i'd charge about $3000 for what you've done
AND.. there would be a clause in the design contract that says that we're the only ones that can build from those plans ... the owner gets to keep the plans but can use them for concept only... they have to have someone else redraw them and assume liability for the design if we're not the builder
i assume you do not carry "errors & ommissions" so... in addition to your $500 fee you are also assuming unlimited liability...
as the builder, i already have the liabilty and i control the job site and the construction methods ....but once the plans leave your drawing board they take on a life of their ownMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike --
Everything I draft is done with AutoCAD.
I probably often do undervalue what I can do. In this case it was for a friend's family. In addition, I didn't do much detailing or real construction docs. These plans are pretty schematic in nature and simply identify the intent. It's up to the builder / GC to fill in the gaps and put together the rest of the set needed for permitting.
A permit set, which would include sections, site plans, electrical, mechanical, plumbing, roof plans, in addition to the floor plans and elevations, would cost more. A lot more, like in your range. Usually I tell someone I work for $35 / hour and give them a range of what it should cost based on my experience.
In this case, i don't need to worry about them taking this design elsewhere to build it. And I have virtually no liability, because the plans aren't signed or sealed. They're simply pictures from which someone who gets permits would have to take on liability to actually build it. If I stamped them or something I could perhaps see an issue with that.
And no, I don't have errors and omissions. If it were commercial work, that would be important. Generally I wouldn't worry much about it residential work. On this I didn't even have a contract -- it was a handshake, so there was no proof of anything either way really. You bring up a good point though -- I never think about the CYA kind of boilerplate when I do this stuff -- I should probably add that to the standard title block regardless. Thanks for that. I hate to have to, but that's what this world is coming to."It depends on the situation..."
i'm pretty sure i've seen some CYA language on prints... i bet AIBD has something on this... if you find anything , let me know
i once was named & had to give depositions in a 3d party suit... by the time i was done i had $3000 in non-insured legal costs....
it's amazing how these things can come at you thru a back doorMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
So would E&O insurance have saved you the costs? Were they costs relative to missed work, or costs relative to hiring an attorney? Because it's scary to think that even if you did your job right, and had virtually NO liability for the work (like this case) that someone could still drag you into some battle and waste your time and money...is that the case here?
Thanks for the input. This could really help keep me out of future trouble : )"It depends on the situation..."
no.... that problem was construction related.. i just used it to illustrate how these things can come out of nowhere
here's what happened.. we built a house for a customer
they had a house warming .. a lady tripped going out of the door
she sued the homeowner, said the threshold was non-standard ( it wasn't )
the homeowner's insurance co. sued me
and lo & behold.. the time when the accident occured was a time period prior to my then current insurance company's coverage
my previous insurance company had gone bankrupt ( ???) and my agent had not placed me with a company for continuing coverage
eventually..... after paying my lawyers $3000 out of the business ... the insurance company decided i had no liability and let me out of the suit
so... there was a three month period where i was without coverage without any knowledge
i got a new agent... and a $3000 payment on my business tuition
anyways... wether you are liable or not, you can still be required to defend a liability suit
so.. i'd add that CYA language to your drawings and your design contracts
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore