Replies

1. 
   Piffin | Oct 26, 2002 06:38am | #1

   ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

   I'm confused here - and this is not the first time tonight that I've typed that word so maybe it's me and not you.

   A beam made up of three 2x10s is not an I-beam.

   I read your post three times and all I can do is surmise that your terminology needs translation.

   Maybe you have a built up beam of three two bys and the joists are I-joists (not I-beams) hung with top hanging joist hangers (not brackets)

   Yes, sometimes it is even better to finish nailing the hangers after some load is in place. It should be done immediately.

   No, a triple 2x10 beam sounds inadequate to me for a seventeen foot span, but then I didn't engineer the floor system. Whoever did it should have your answer.

   I can't see the whole system. Way too many details are missing and I'm already surmiseing what you meant to say.

   .

   Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   mapletreez | Oct 26, 2002 07:21pm | #2

   My terminology stands corrected. You did an excellent job in translating what I was trying to ask. The center support beam is made up of the 3 2x10s. The Ibeams I refered to in my first discription, are Ijoists. The brackets I refered to are joist hangers. I did remember, {after my letter was posted}, questioning the builder, if the 3 2x10s would be enough to carry the load. His reply was yes, and the floor was engineered this way. He also said this was an engineered floor he had been using with great success over the last 5 years. I will go ahead and finish fastening the joist hangers. For peace of mind I will also add an additional 2x10 the length of the 3 beam. I think an extra support column under where the piano sits, may be a good idea too. I do not currently see any cracks or deflection in the center beam. The twisting of the Ijoists seems to be worse in the centers of the span. That is what made me think the problem was all in the missing fasteners. I will ask for a second opionion about additional 2 bys added the center beam, just to be on the safe side. Thanks, Mapletree

1. 
   Piffin | Oct 26, 2002 10:52pm | #3

   I had thought that the twisting was in the center beam. If in the I-joists, you can add a great amount of strength and resistance to vibration and joist deflection by7 simply adding straping @16"oc to the bottoms of the I-joists. Much more easily done with a gun than hand nailing though. .

   Excellence is its own reward!

2. 
   Piffin | Oct 26, 2002 11:29pm | #6

   Just for giggles, Is this beam flush set or under the I-joists?

   How long are the I-joists? Which type and size?? 15, 25,35...?(Size of chords and flange tell us or the stamp you should be able to read.) What layout? Are outside ends hung also or setting on foundation walls? Who determined that only 2-2x6 at the end is sufficient to carry the load? Could the lean in the center lolly column be from bumping the bottom over instead of the top going with movement in the beam?

   Got any pictures?

   What is your position in this?> Lead carpenter?

   Bob woke up the detective in me.

   .

   Excellence is its own reward!

   Edited 10/26/2002 4:33:28 PM ET by piffin

2. 
   rjw | Oct 26, 2002 11:11pm | #4

   Now their is a slight lean to one of the 3 lolly columns which is supporting the center beam down the middle of the house.

   One columns "slight lean" is another columns "unbalanced load."

   I think you need to get a structural expert in to take a look at things 

1. 
   Piffin | Oct 26, 2002 11:21pm | #5

   That's probably true. There is a dearth of sufficient information here. I still doubt this cecnter beam is OK. All I can go by is the statement that the original builder had it all engineered. But if his engineeering left as much to be desired as his nailing of the joist hangers, there is trouble in the wings.

   It also just occured to me that these hangers were attached with a screw in the top flange. I don't remember that being a proper installation fastener..

   Excellence is its own reward!

3. 
   BossHog | Oct 27, 2002 01:34pm | #7

   Bob Walker is right - Someone needs to come out and look at the thing.

   But leaving nails out of hangers definitely isn't a good sign. Makes me wonder what else got screwed up.

   What is a "free" gift ? Aren't all gifts free?

1. 
   BillHartmann | Oct 27, 2002 02:19pm | #8

   "But leaving nails out of hangers definitely isn't a good sign. Makes me wonder what else got screwed up."

   Or screwed down in this case.

   His first message indicate that what was there where SCREWS.

   Maybe it is better that they left out the nails. Otherwise they might have filled the holes with screws and mapletree might not have noticed untill they started breaking.

2. 
   rjw | Oct 27, 2002 02:35pm | #9

   "But leaving nails out of hangers definitely isn't a good sign. "

   I thought we were supposed to use only hanger nails; is there a screw that's rated for that kind of shear? 

1. 
   BossHog | Oct 28, 2002 01:56am | #10

   Bob -

   When I said "screwed up", I meant "messed up". I didn't mean to imply that the guy should have used screws.

   Sorry about that................"More hay, Trigger?" "No thanks, Roy, I'm stuffed!"

1. 
   rjw | Oct 28, 2002 02:26am | #11

   Ah, another senior moment over on the liberal bench {G}

1. 
   BillHartmann | Oct 28, 2002 03:24am | #12

   But if you look at the orginal message.

   " Each bracket had just two screws in the tops of the brackets,..."

2. 
   JohnSprung | Oct 28, 2002 10:20pm | #18

   > is there a screw that's rated for that kind of shear? 

   Check the Simpson-Strongtie website, http://www.strongtie.com.  They have engineered screws designed to work with some of the bewildering blizzard of bracketry that they make.  But those screws are only OK when used exactly in accordance with Simpson's designs.

   -- J.S.

3. 
   1remodeler | Oct 28, 2002 09:07am | #13

   I'm going to upset a lot of people here but you should pursue a lawyer in this case because.

   1. your builder showed neglect at what could cost a great deal to repair properly.

   2. your building inspector you paid for also screwed up.

   3. you were wronged and need to have this fixed, or when you go to sell a home inspection could possibly find these problems and cost you a great deal latter.

   4. structural engineers are not cheap.

   5. I have never heard of using screws in hangers unless they are designed for that purpose. (a dry wall screw or even a # 8 deck screw do not have adequate shear strength for any I-joist hangers)

   Good luck

   Wait I just reread your posts you are a lawer. can you tell me how to get $18,000.00

   out of another lawer that I did work for and is now broke but not filling for bankruptcy. what happens, or how long would I go to jail if I reposessed his $7,000.00

   barbque or his custom designed $12,000.00 steel rail or his custom hand made doors to his custom garbage chute I labored over for 36.5 hours

   sorry I got off on a bit of a tangent.

   Perfect is usually acceptable!!!

   Edited 10/28/2002 2:45:24 AM ET by 1REMODELER

1. 
   Piffin | Oct 28, 2002 12:21pm | #14

   You really are off on a tangent old buddy. Boss Hog isn't a lawyer, he's a truss designer. Bob Walker also posted above and he is a recovering lawyer but you didn't adress it to him. And you first spiel of advice was good if it was directed to the homeowner, but the owner never entered this discussion. The thread was started by mapletree who is neither builder nor owner by the context of his/her posts. I asked who exactly mapletree is but haven't gotten an answer. I have a shadow of a question in my psychic parts suggesting that mapletree could be builder, owner and designer all rolled into one without admitting it. Maybe we'll never know.

   RE you advice, the owners bear some culpability if they moved iin before the building was finished and made it impossible to get at areas of work to do things right or complete..

   Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   Mongo | Oct 28, 2002 08:19pm | #15

   You have a main beam that appears to be improperly installed, is possibly undersized for the load it is carrying, and which has support columns that are deflecting.

   You have TJIs supported by the above described beam that appear to be rolling over.

   You have joist hangers that appear to be improperly and inadequately fastened.

   By modifying any of the above, you are now assuming, in one form of another, responsibility for the structural base of the house.

   Do you want to do that?

   What is your role in this? You already referenced "the builder". Are you a framer? Homeowner?

   Take a step back from what is going on and call your code official. Have him come by for a look. Take his recommendation, even if that requires bringing in an engineer to review the framing "as is." The building official approved the plans, ensure that the house is built according to the plans.

   Why is the beam deflecting laterally? Why are the TJIs rolling? There are myriad reasons, none of which I'm going to troubleshoot here.

   Remember, any modifications that you make WILL make YOU culpable down the road.

   Tread carefully.

1. 
   JohnSprung | Oct 28, 2002 10:08pm | #16

   The only good thing I can see here is it sounds like the sort of situation where most of the debris is likely to fall inward.  There is no substitute for on-site expertise.  The homeowner,  possibly in consultation with the local building officials, needs to determine who is responsible for applying that expertise, and then make sure that it happens.

   -- J.S.

2. 
   FastEddie1 | Oct 28, 2002 10:18pm | #17

   the owners bear some culpability if they moved iin before the building was finished   Why?  If they were advised by the builder that the house was ready, and if they had green tags fromm the inspectors, why should they wait?

1. 
   Piffin | Oct 28, 2002 11:42pm | #19

   I didn't read anything in the post that indicated either of those conditions.

   I realize this doesn't apply to most of the country, but many places don't require COs befopre move-in.

   I'm still wondering where the original poster is with more info. How do you like these one sided conversations? It becomes an exercise in speculation!

   .

   Excellence is its own reward!

   Edited 10/28/2002 4:46:37 PM ET by piffin

2. 
   FastEddie1 | Oct 29, 2002 12:43am | #20

   Well, he said that the HO moved in with all their possessions, and didn't mention anything about an early move-in, so I assumed... :)  I also assumed...that the builder had received the proper framing etc inspections, but youi're right that that's not required everywhere.

   I hope the original author is tied up with something more important than this discussion of his problem, cause it borders on rude to not respond like he's doing.  Maybe we can speculate that he was the HO and the house collapsed this weekend. 

   No, wait, I had a vision...he was using his Ryobi cordless drill to install some 1-1/4" sheetrock screws ("well, the clerk at HD said they were the best he had..."), the head of the screw snapped off, threw him off balance causing him to fall off the kitchen chair he was standing on, he fell against the center column, knocked it loose, and the beam sagged terribly.  While he's holding the beam up, he sent his wife to the orange box for supplies and advice, and the kid from lawn & garden who's covering the lumber dept is trying to decide if those mdf shelf boards that are on sale will work, or should he sell her landscape timbers?  Oh, decisions, decisions...

3. 
   Piffin | Oct 29, 2002 12:51am | #21

   LMAO.

   Excellence is its own reward!

4. 
   1remodeler | Oct 29, 2002 01:39am | #22

   amen brother

5. 
   goldhiller | Oct 29, 2002 06:02am | #23

   ROTFLMAO

   Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.