looking at our stock of roofing nails today—–and catch myself thinking–” didn’t the heads on these used to be bigger?
so i get out my tape and measure the “double hot dipped gavanized” nails we buy in bulk for hand nailing—-and i measure the heads on the coil nails. coil nails approx. 3/8″—– hand nails slightly bigger —–but not muchbigger.
but they SEEM smaller than they used to be—-and i know I encounter old nails on tear-offs where the heads seem to be about the size of a dime( significantly bigger)—and the heads are knurled as well
so——question is——-anybody got a source for good old fashioned roofing nails with heads bigger than 3/8″———–preferably double hot dipped galvanized??????????
really appreciate if somebody can hook me up with some of these
stephen
Replies
If you can type that in Chinese, you'll probably get an answer.
http://grantlogan.net/
I was born in a crossfire hurricane..........shooby dooby do
Laughing at the chineese thing.
actually went to the Maze nail web site----thir mill is in the USA------no luck, 3/8"
quick google reveals that apparently in england something called a "clout nail" with an extra large head seems to be available--looks like what we call a roofing nail.
Far as I can tell---locally there is only one place left where I can buy hot dipped galv. roofing nails in bulk----everywhere else has the crappy electro plated korean/chineese junk.
even 4-5 years ago i could still buy---even 5# boxes of hot dipped almost everywhere-------no more.
stephen
do you remember the ones from the thirties? Heads were at least 5/8" across back then
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Piffen----- i am measuring a dime---------it's BIGGER than 5/8"-----so we are probably thinking of the same nails.
most of the houses i work on were built in the 1920's---so on tear-offs thats what i am used to seeing.
maybe you would consider halting production of your fine "piffen screws" and crank out a couple thousand pounds of 1-1/4" double hot dipped galvanized roofing nails with proper heads??????????
please--oh pretty please?????????
lol,Stephen
Oh great, like I don't have enough on my plate, what with saving the world, the republican party, and my ownn health...you want me to rank out an issue of Fine Nail Burning too while I'm at it? LOL
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Dagburnit!! when i was in better shape and used to do roofs ..this be back in the early 20's rhe roofing nails had heads as big as quarters!With heads that big we could roof at nite cuz we had too much farm work to do while the sun was shinning.You young whippersnappers all u do is complain..boohoo..the heads to small!!
'course back then, with poor nutrition and all, your eyesight was such that you needed nail heads as big as quarters to be able to see them
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According to the artist/author/historian Eric Sloane, in the 1800's folks had better eyesight, didn't need glasses, and roofed at night to avoid the heat. Their good eyesight allowed them to work at night.
I don't know where he got this information. I think he has an active imagination. Could be true though.
Wasn't life expectancy about 40 years old back then? I visited a local historic site, covered in graves from the mid to late 19th century, and just about all of the monuments list age at death of about 35 to 50 years old. Whole lot of kids died either at birth or soon after. Most people, certainly not all, need glasses or corrective lens to read by their mid forty's and by 55 or 60 years, just about everyone needs glasses to read with.
average life expectancy was about 47 but that is because of the large number of children who died young. Of the ones who lived through childbirth, and had developed immunities, a great many made it into their seventies
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so why couldn't I just wear my glasses and roof at night?
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I don't know, maybe 'cause you'd annoy the neighbors?
not if they're from the 1800's ...
they'd all be dead.
or at least deaf by now.
I think that artist dude was wrong ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I thot you meant YOU wanted to roof at night. That might not go over well in Pgh. Those old-timers wouldn't have wanted to waste their whale oil so they ate their carrots instead.
Yeah....cuz we all know that roofing at night is the ONLY way Buck could ever annoy anyone.
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
LOL
He'd find a way to make a friend and find at least two or three funny stories about it though.
According to James Hardie, an 11 Ga. Roofing nail is 0.121 shank, and 0.371 head dia.
I guess you need to set up the Piffin nail timemachine to 9 ga. It has to be larger? No?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
Are you saying that a Piffin nail is a large shank as well as a big head?
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Hardly, 9 ga. shank and a dime size head?
pre-everthing silver dollar sized head...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
piffin,you keep talking about your large shank and big head,your going to get sent to the corner. larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Just make washers out of dimes--drill a hole and put them under each nail--simple!
;-) (just in case you thought I was serious)
I've seen English pennies used in exactly that manner to hold down galvanized roofing in Jamaica. Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
Stephen,
I dont know why I save this stuff but ..... I knew I had a box of nails left over from when I built my detached garage in 1984. Just went out and looked at them ..... 1 1/4" hot dip galvanized roofing nails from Hechingers, if anyone remembers them. The head is exactly 3/8" :( So they have been that way at least 23 years.
Bill Koustenis
Advanced Automotive Machine
Waldorf Md
MrBill,
you may be correct.
YOUR nails have been that way since 1984.
allowing for nuance and subtlety-----your box from 1984 doesen't preclude the possibility that there were nails with bigger heads still on the market at that time.
i DO know that when we bought hot dipped nails---it seemed every time ya reached in your pouch ya pulled out a gob of nails all stuck together with the zinc. My current batch------haven't found even 2 nails zinced together------so in that regaurd,at least--things have gotten better.
I think gun-nails have brought this about.
look at a coil of gun nails---every nail exactly the same---every head exactly the same----otherwise--jams.-----and the hand nails?---now pretty much the same thing-----every nail in a 50# box----the same.-----but i used to find nails with heads shaped like tear drops--or footballs quite often------no more-----manufacturing process must be waaaaaay tighter now?
stephen
I have less complaint about head size than the fact that it seems like every now and then we get a box where a fourth of the heads fall right off when you drive the nail home. I have no recall whether these are chinese or Canadian nails. Can't remember the last time we got American made nails.
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Yup, that's what strikes me about "modern" roofing nails is that the heads fall off about one out of four. Maybe they're made of lead! I remember when I was a kid, we had a saying, "Made in Jahpahn!" said in a sort of sing-song, for cheap, poor quality goods. Well, that is certainly not the case anymore, but "Made in China" sure is.
What nails do you typically get? We go through a few #30 tubs of 1-1/2" roofing nails every year, and they are typically Grip Rite.While I'm not a big fan of Grip Rite gun nails, the hand drives seem to be pretty reliable.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Don't recall the name.Usually in a cardboard 50# box, Labeled made in Canada.I bought a bostich coil nailer a little over a year ago, so my last box of hand nails is only half used and now in a bucket.
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about every fourth head falls off-----------
if referring to the electo-galv. nails----I agree 100%
with the hot dipped galvanized-------I haven't had any such problem.
BTW--- the reason I even brought this topic up-----is that I am seriously,SERIOUSLY considering returning our installation methods to" ALL WORK HAND NAILED"-----and preparing to pay employees quite a bit above market wages in order to do so
stephen
I hand nailed all my life until last year. I am curious why you want to go back? The smoothies will pull out easier and rust faster, but I just six nail with the gun.for me, the gun is no faster, but it does make it easier for my worn out old body.
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Piffen,
I started out hand nailing------working mostly solo------- shifted to guns maybe 15 years ago.
I have been thinking about this for a year or so. for me it's a matter of quality overall---but not necissarily in the way you might first suspect.
working solo, I can gun nail somewhat faster than I can hand nail---and working solo, I can gun nail exactly as well as i can hand nail( nail placement/proper depth of nail etc.)------BUT---to gun nail properly requires CONSTANT concentration on the mundane---and constant adjustments. Even with depth of drive adjustments right on the gun--------there is a lot of fiddling throughout the day-----temp. of the shingle changes------gun must be adjusted to prevent overdrive or underdrive----you or I might do that----but the average installer----no they won't---not to the degree we want them to.
with the gun---the focus is on speed---speed rules-everything is about speed,speed,speed. anything that effects speed---becomes an annoyance to the installer---valleys, vents, soil stacks, step flashing---become irritations and things to be rushed through to return to speed,speed, speed.---the gun is a SYMPTOM of a larger problem--attitude.------------virtually any roofer with some experience who has ever applied for a job with me-------first thing they want to talk about is how fast they are---speed.-What I want to talk about is---how good they are--what can they do----can they do their own layouts, bend their own flashing, how do they install a slant back vent or a soil stack flashing---how would they flash a chimney, etc.
I really don't care AT ALL about speed---because I am not selling speed to the customer. when the installers focus is on speed----his attention to depth of drive, nail placement etc.---falls by the wayside----and he doesn't even realize it.
"is this done RIGHT ?"--becomes" is this good enough,or close enough"
Being a bit of a contrarian--- I started thinking about this a year or so ago---primarily from a marketing standpoint. If most people are doing"A"--- i want to do"B"---because usually most people have not anylized"A" deeply enough--they are seeing the main advantage-----but typically overlooking several disadvantages
since I am not selling fast, and i am not selling cheap---hand nailing fits in very well with what I AM selling---it shifts the whole tone of the sales presentation and it presents favorable perceptions about many other aspects of our work------WHY are you hand nailing?,WHY are you so strongly suggesting 50 year/lifetime grade shingles? WHY are you suggesting that material as a flashing?,WHY do you insist that no dumpster or dump truck be left on the job site overnight?,WHY do you insist that ALL workers be covered by workers comp. and WHY are you prepared to prove it?,Why do you insist on this?, why do you insist on that?,------- it's all part of a whole package
Now---I admidt--- I would prefer to continue as I have done in the past------but circumstances present me with many times the volume of work that I would need or want----and yet i have a societal obligations to serve these people---so ,how can I shape the terms of that service in a manner I prefer? Not really needing more money--- I think I will shape it/spend it in ways that seem to verifyably indicate BETTER.-- I would personally prefer zero employees---but circumstances prevent that--so, I think I will likely opt for" many hands make light work". Living and working in an urban enviornment makes this possible. nailing by hand will shape the workers focus away from speed and back onto how well instead of how fast.since most of our projects are tear-off projects----the actual installation of shingles is a much smaller portion of the day than most people migh assume-------following tear-off,wood replacement,icegaurd and titanium udl installation--on out projects-each installer is probably gonna only have to hand nail about 2 squares a day--hand nailing 2 squares--- that's actually kind of pleasant-----and it's LESS wear and tear than gun nailing10-12 square.
stephen
Stephen
Lots of good thinking there! And you have the customer base and reputation to make iot work.Your comments about fiddling with the gun really struck home with me! That is exactly why I made the decision back in the seventies that I was not interested in gunning the nails in. I do NOT LIKE mechanical work or mechanical things that do not work. It needs to work flawlessly for me of I will throw it away. I don't have the patience for fiddling, running down a ladder to adjust pressure when I can be productive nailing, etc. On the last shingle job I did a couple weeks ago, I was getting out my hammer to set one of every 20-30 nails not driven tight enough to suit me.As for the speed comment - that mindset is an out growth of the fact that most shingle layers get paid based on production rates or by piecework rather than hourly. When I first started out, I priced reflashing a chimney based on how many squares of shingle I would normally be able to lay during the time it would take to make the chimney flashing and install it. but it is all true. On the jobs where I get called to do roof repairs for blown offs, nearly every stinking time, it is because the nails were gunned in and placed far too high on the shingle. Another good point here is that when hand nailing on old board sheathing, you know instantly when you hit an airhole that will not hold the nail so you can plunk in another. The gun nail guys just keep on shooting in ignorance of what they are hitting or not hitting.
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Piffen, i also HATE mechanical work- and machines--and I dislike traversing rooftops with a feeder hose and a snaggle of splitters and 5-6 gun hoses running every which way.
also---the VAST majority of my work is,circa 1926 houses, solid southern yellow pine 1x8 decking
Stephen
Another good point here is that when hand nailing on old board sheathing, you know instantly when you hit an airhole that will not hold the nail so you can plunk in another. The gun nail guys just keep on shooting in ignorance of what they are hitting or not hitting.
Near the end of my year and a half as a framing carpenter, I could usually tell if the nails didn't hit anything solid by the sound and lack of kick from the nailgun, though not always. And if you're going fast, you don't want to take the time to feel and listen--then you go around to like the inside of the garage you just nailed the sheathing on and see rows of nails alongside studs and you have to bang them back out and try again!
One thing to operate that way with sheathing - quite another with a roof full of shingles
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Well dang, I just bought my first roofing gun a few weeks ago. I don't mind roofing occasionally, and I don't mind mechanical work occasionally. I guess if you find mechanical work less tedious than roofing, and are willing to pay attention to quality, the gun can work.
Of course I'm not doing what you're doing. We roof our own jobs once in a while, and I'll be roofing my own house soon, which is the real reason I bought the gun.
So it sounds like you decided the solution to your dilemma was to hire on some employees? Even though you didn't want to? Man you're dedicated to your customers.
Mike,
if you are working by yourself and paying close attention--constantly-------- the gun can work ok.
If you have a full crew with 4-5 guns running at once off of the same air compresser----and especially if it is a mix of guns---bostich,max,pasload,hitachis---some with depth of drive adjustment--some with out------well then you are going to see considerable variation in the quality of the nailing.( most gun nailers will NOT fess up to this,lol)
Dedication to customers?????? I don't know if I would phrase it that way----but if not me--then WHO?---- it's more a matter of "simple things done well"----and the gun nailing thing is not"done well"----but more a matter of--under the BEST scenario---done"good enough"
few of us get to do exactly what we want in life---if I got to do exactly what i want---maybe I would be more like someone like Chris Beckvort
instead, I am what I am--THIS is what I do--like it or not---I SHOULD do it the best way I can.
the employee thing is about a 99% done deal decision
the handnail/gun nail decision is maybe a 85% done deal
Stephen
That's a good point about the size of the crew. My guys usually have two guns going at the same time at the most. We six nail (minimum) and are seldom seeing any 1x sheathing anymore.
For years, I made my guys hand nail because of the 1x (we had a run where 1x6 sheathing was the norm). The problem I see often with hand nailing (especially on 3 tabs), is the last nail on every other course doesn't get put in when a verticle rack is used and verticle racking is very common around here. A lot of the oldtimers do it with dimensionals. http://grantlogan.net/
I was born in a crossfire hurricane..........shooby dooby do
Grant----you are absolutely correct about the short nailing with a vertical rack 3 tab.
super excellent point!
luckily--- I haven't done a single 3 tab roof this year-- i think i did ONE last year------and I don't imagine I will EVER be doing any in the future---- If I do it will be a memorable exception.
RE: the 1x6's--really rarely encounter 1x6 here--almost entirely 1x8-----gotta say I am glad it's 1x8.-------------2 weeks ago did a 1x6 roof with Certainteed landmarks.
Of course you KNOW what size a 1x6 really is----and you KNOW where Certainteed wants that nail placed( above that 5-5/8" exposure)---well of course on a 1x6 deck---the nail is "supposed " to go right where the mother effen gap is between the boards,LOL.---usually when I have encountered 1x6 decks---the FIRST board was a 1x10---eliminating that problem.
also--almost certainley going to make W valleys mandatory---as it will solve allocation of manpower problems( EITHER side of a valley can be done first----ie: one man to the left of a dormer-one man to the right of a dormer,one man ON the dormer-and one man shingling top down the upper 4 feet above the dormer and capping in)
stephen
Chris Becksvoort has some stuff in a gallery here. I've admired his stuff for years, but man, up close...artistry in wood, that's all I can say.
On the way out of the gallery last month (First Friday of every month is open gallery night here) I realize the lanky guy sitting in the corner was the artist himself. I was too chickensh*t to strike up a conversation. Wish I had.
mike, Becksvort also has--in my opinion--the most appealing, best thought out web site I have ever seen--PERIOD.-----------in fact I have never seen another web site even approach the comfortableness of his site.
I have never seen,in person any of his work----------but I have read his books,a lot of his magazine articles and a lot of stuff on line about him( much of what seems to be a condensed version of his web site)----
what I admire most, I think,---is his clarity of purpose--------he says" this is what I do--this is the style within which i work, these are the materials I use, these are the tools I use, this is the finish I use"--PERIOD-- he doesn't try to be all things to all people-----within his style" simple things done well'---as well as humanely possible I suspect!
I also like the way he puts his prices right out there--with no apology. I am actually suprised that they are so reasonable. He has a dining room table and a sideboard that I covet. I could attempt to make the same thing--and of course fail miserably---or i could spend the same time doing what I do---and earn more than enough to buy HIS beautiful work----which is the way such things SHOULD work I suspect.
well---off to spend some time sweating in the sun and smashing my thumb-----------------------
stephen
I hadn't seen his website until now, that is nice. On the music stand page, the top picture? You should see that thing in person. I got a big grin just looking at it.
His website is a perfect representation of his work, clear, concise, warm and functional.
Reading his articles was a big reason I jumped into furnituremaking after college. Just seemed like the right thing to do.
Of course that lasted about six months and I figured I had made about $2 an hour. Literally. That was the end of that. But it's still my early "retirement" dream. Sounds like it's yours too.
Man I'm a shmuck for not talking to him.
If you ever make it up this way we should go visit him at his shop. It's not far from Portland. We can all stand around awkwardly and admire his work ;-)
If we ever visit him in his shop---- i will be bringing a checkbook ----so we won't need to stand around awkwardly---we'll be customers.
coincidentally--my oldest son informs me--that he would like to try getting into the " North Bennet Street School" after college----and pursue something of the same thing.
since I have never Balked at any of the other tuition charges I have incurred on his behalf----and since the north bennet street school clearly falls into the realm of " things I wish I had done"-------- he would have my entire support.
stephen
Good for your son. I lived in Boston for several years and always meant to take a class there but never did. Man you're reminding me of all kinds of things I should have done. Thanks a lot!
A buddy of mine did take a class or two there on basic woodworking while he was working with me doing carpentry. He liked it, but said it was pretty laid back. Maybe that's good or bad, don't know.
It's nice that you're cool with your son doing that.
BTW--- i owe my youngest son( jazz & blues musician) a music stand that i promised him.
unfortuneately---the design i have in mine exceeds my current abilities.---it's a bent wood thing---something similar to a wood hayfork-----with a slice of burl to hold the sheet music.
started working( and failing miserably) on it in the spring---------then a hail storm june 8( the day my wife referrs to as the day that "ruined stephens perfect little life")---anyhow--the hail storm and it's aftermath have sucked up most of my free time untill winter---when i will resume my bungling,wood butchering attempts.-----
also have some walnut my sons gave me for christmas---which will become a new desk, on which to write outrageous$$$$$$$ roof proposals.--hey I gotta pay Becksvorts tab somehow, LOL
Stephen
I haven't finished reading this whole thread, but I think if you've got the work and can present your work in such a way that the quality will distinguish it from the rest of the crowd, there will always be a niche for you.
There's a high-end architectural firm near here and all their final drawings are hand rendered. All the other guys are using computer generated drawings. Their hand rendered drawings are absolutely beautiful and guess what? They have more high end work than they can possibly handle. I'm sure there are reasons other that just the drawings but as they say, perception is everything!
Steven, I went to a nail maker in CA to pick up some copper nails I had ordered from ABC.
Damnedest collection of clapped out old machinery all clanking away making copper nails.
Lots of not so perfects, but all of them nails except a few mangled & bent one came with them.
Interesting to watch, probably have armedguards on the place now.
Joe H
They just seem smaller because you are looking down at them and seeing your gut in the background, which seemes enourmous. Before, when your gut was smaller, you were comparing the nail with your willy, and the nail head seemed ENOURMOUS.
Well, that's how it worked for me anyway.
I remember when 1 1/4" screws were
THIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIS long!
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
If your hair looks funny, it's because God likes to scratch his nuts. You nut, you.
Maybe you just need bi-focals to compensate for your shorter arms. ;)
Troy Sprout
"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should also have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government."
-- George Washington
Does code require a minimum diameter on the head?
Dave
Just for kicks, i went on a google. "Tree Island Industries" out of Richmond, BC, (near Vancouver) makes a hot-dipped nail with a 7/16" head. It also sells under the brand name "Mazel".
Not sure if that's enough larger head to make you happy, but here are some links, in case you hadn't already found this source.
http://www.treeisland.com/section.asp?catid=185&subid=186&pageid=81
"A 10, 11 or 12 gauge nail with an enlarged 7/16" head suitable for preparing roofing, asphalt shingles, insulation board and felts. Standard Finish: Bright, Electro-Galvanized and Hot Dip Galvanized"
and a retail source for buying them:
http://www.cornerhardware.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=6744_6907_7456
PS: As to the nomenclature re "clout nails"...my Brit called roofing nails simply "clouts"....pronounced as "clowt" rather than "cloot", btw. I never heard him say "clout nails".
Edited 9/19/2007 12:26 pm by splintergroupie
Now that he finally has an answer, does this mean that a very fine thread will have to come to an end and degenerate into name calling?;)I'll start -
You're a Great Googlist Girl!
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Thanky, darlin'!I can't contribute much in the way of technique to you olde farts, but if it's on the Net, i can find it.
thank you,
stephen
BTW--- yesterday drove past the job site of the last local contractor that i know of who hand nailed EVERYTHING--even felt.--------Crew was running guns.
this morning ran into one of his former employees---asked him when Tony switched to guns---------" just this spring, Steve"---so apparently absolutely NO ONE here still does this .--which isa concern,because Tony was VERY honest and VERY sharp.
stephen
I understand the tendency to equate air-nailing with inaccuracy because any 'power' process means you can make a lot more errors a lot more quickly, but i don't see equating it necessarily with dishonesty. It's been my experience to find badly hand-nailed jobs from guys too new to the business to afford the air equipment and too green to do a good job. The very first air tool i acquired was a roofing stapler, which isn't supposed to be as good as a nailer, i know, but i've yet to lose a shingle in a couple decades, though i hand-nail my cap. Of course, i've used up a couple of micrometers, measuring for fastener placement... <G>Good thing i don't roof for a living. I'd lose my arse.
splintergroupie----------
i don't equate air nailing with dishonesty at all.
my comment was along the lines that tony was a very honest, very sharp guy---and if He can no longer make a go of it with his crew hand nailing---it's unfortuneate.
I know tony pretty well--he was one of the first subs I dealt with 10-12 years ago----and i know for a fact he would strongly prefer to sell hand nailed roofs---he was always extraordinarily proud of that technique.
what I suspect is that he found it impossible to pay workers to hand nail--within his pricing structure. It isn't a lack of experience thing---tony has been roofing longer than me--and it isn't a cost of equipment thing-------Probabbly $500 would get a yougster up and running. tonys volume--number of roofs per year is probably 3 times mine--he is quite successfull
I suspect he just can't get young guys to hand nail anymore--at any price-per hour-per day------ whatever. and if tony can't--unlikely that I will be able to either. which is a shame as I was preparing to hire 5 men at comparably high wages per man------I will be able to produce the same probably with 3 men a LOWER wages per man---so i will employ 2 fewer men-and they will all make less per man.
my alternative will likely be to six nail each shingle with hot dipped galvanized gun nails from Maze-- i need to six nail the lifetime shingles to get the highest wind rating-might as well do them ALL that way.
Best wishes, Stephen
stephen
I read this last post of yours with a mixture of sadness and nostalgia.
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ah well----what are ya gonna do?------customers don't know the difference--and likely wouldn't care anyhow.
like my conversation yesterday-----guy I roofed his house 9-10 years ago.--hail storm comes this summer--insurance co. tells him his ok/middle aged roof must be replaced.-- I give him my price( remember I roofed this for him 9-10 years ago)
insurance co. calls me up--wants to know why MY price is different than the one the insurance co thinks should be charged.
customer calls up and says---insurance co. says you should only charge $250/sq. because that's "the going rate"---my response is" that's the going rate for fly-by-nights that won't be in business here next year----but I was charging MORE than $250/sq. 10 YEARS ago when I last roofed your house---why on earth would I charge less than that now???????
customer doesn't grasp---that I can work 7 days a week every week between now and the middle of next summer and still not get my projects done-----doesn't know doesn't care--just thinks I am gonna make an exception for HIM and work at a loss.
ah,well---------" the customers problem is not MY problem,the customers problem is not MY problem,the customers problem is not MY problem........................."
Stephen
Sorry, Stephen. I had misinterpreted bec of your use of the past-tense in your description of Tony: "because Tony *was* VERY honest and VERY sharp". Thanks for correcting that impression.
Good thing i don't roof for a living. I'd lose my arse.
Two things that many folks equate with speed in the trades is roofing, and painting. "Bang 'em on" and "slap it on".
Early on in my "career", I was extremely slow at both. (Never ask a perfectionist to hurry up.)
Contractor I was working for at the time once told me that if I ever received a call to paint a roof, I should RUN away.
J. D. ReynoldsHome Improvements
I sold my restored-over-8-years Victorian to a fine woman who unfortunately thinks there's not a great deal of difference between an $18 sash brush and a handful of Spanish moss as a paint applicator. All those miles of trim i removed, stripped, filled, sprayed, re-installed... As she reminds me, it's not my house anymore. :^(
SG,When we were newlyweds my wife and I built our dream house in the mountains, moved in 1985. We sold that house in 2002 to a young couple, who made some changes to "make it their own."What is funny is that when we have visited them, I feel much more detached from the building than my wife, even though I did almost all the actual work. Maybe it is a gender thing. I just remember when I "let go" of the house emotionally, 16 months before we sold it. I knew I had to do it, and was blessed to be able to. She has suffered a bit from holding on, still refers to it as "our" house. Nope, not any more.Bill
The new owner tells visitors i come back to work on the house out of "separation anxiety", LOL...more than a bit of truth in that, since i've been turning down work for anyone else. You always remember your first, but i think the best is yet to come: the one i finally build from scratch using my own design.