Anybody everseen or built an indoor Koi Pond?
My customer wants to install a 12’x16′ Koi Pond in their basement. I am a small general contractor/remodeler in Kansas City, Missouri with no experience with this type of thing. I haven’t found any local people with indoor pond experience that can answer some questions. I am hoping someone here might or could point me in the right direction.
I have a few questions/concerns.
Will a typical 4″ basement slab hold the weight of the pond? I came up with a square foot of water 2′ deep weighs approxamitly 120 lbs.
Will it create to much humidity in the home. The home is about 8600 square feet with a 30×40 foot atrium on the main floor looking down into the lower level(basement) where the pond will be.
Thanks a million for any help.
Replies
I have been looking into the same subject, and have even seen a few such ponds. Here's what I've learned so far:
Koi are "dirty" fish. What this means is that you can't have as many in the pond as you would if you used a cleaner fish, and that the filtering is critical.
You can't just fill the pond, and add the fish. There is a natural bacterial cycle that needs to get started, and can't be rushed. So, you put in one fish ... and add others later.
The ponds I've seen were simply ordinary outdoor ponds, set up indoors. I don't think weight is an issue; these ponds are typically about a foot deep.
The ponds all had a gentle waterfall, which also served to aerate the water.
Koi are glorified goldfish, and no not need to have the water heated.
One source of information is http://www.aquariumadvice.com . There are also links to "water garden" sites.
From my preliminary scouting, be prepared for the dollars to add up. Even starting a "simple" 10 gallon aquarium will cost you almost $150, by the time all the bits & pieces are added up.
Koi are glorified CARP! Like carp they can live in shttt.
If you want to learn about Koi, go to Koiphen.com and start reading. It's fascinating to see how engaged people are with fish! Some of their ponds are HUGE.
Bob Chapman
I've seen such a thing, but don't have any details on the construction. The one I've seen is in a Japanese restaurant in Indianapolis. The restaurant is in a strip-mall type location, so it was surprising to see such an elaborate setup complete with koi, turtles, plants, rocks, and a bridge that crossed over.
I have been in a house with indoor water features - a small stream that winds through the room! It was well done with a stone floor, glass over the stream, lights etc.
But the entire room was covered with mildew and mold from the humidity. I would encourage your client to go outside with the pond, or go with something much smaller.
It would stink to have such a beautiful feature in the basement, but have to run 3 dehumidifiers to keep things normal. Maybe someone else will be along with a more applicable comparison - best wishes!
DO NOT DO IT! The humidity will cause mildew and moisture will drip and streak the walls. The pond will leak, especially the waterfall. You will need a filter that's as big as a coffin and if it is not properly maintained the fish will die. Who will feed the fish twice a day? Do you know how to make a biological filter and how to "clean" it? Use a pool pump and the electrical bill will be $200 a month, the pump has to run 24hrs a day.
A indoor waterfall can be too noisy for indoors. Hardwood will warp and curl near this pond. How will you keep the water level the same. What will happen if it overflows? Will the fish or owners get electrocuted? The owners will not like the look of black algae on the pond surfaces. Kill the Algae and you will kill the fish. Get one diseased fish and it may infect the others. Will the tap water kill the fish?
In my lifetime I have seen 50+ ponds, they all have War stories and those who still have them wished certain things were done differently. My pond is OK. I get offers of free fish all the time, some people are not fish people.
Feed fish twice a day? You obviously know little about fish. Fish can go weeks without eating depending on their size. Smaller fish need to feed more often, but I have left my small tropical fish for two weeks without food while on vacation numerous times.
I can't argue with much of the rest of your post, but when you say one thing which obviously lacks the most element of knowledge on the subject, one must ask "whatelse in the post is pure fantasy born of nothing".
All the help has been great!
And I am starting to find some help locally.
Anymore coments would be welcome.
The atrium is about 36,000 cubic feet, plus the remainder of the floor space upstairs and down stairs. With dehumidifiers on the each of the 3 zone HVAC systems I don't think the humidity is going to be an issue. Or am I way off?
Thanks again
What about the waterfalls at Crown Center?
Of course that is a much, much larger space to disperse the humidity.
I know that there is a water garden association in the KC area.
Contact Kellers and see if they know of any. And ask them for the contact for the water garden assocaition.
http://www.kellersflowers.com/home.html
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
There was a guy on here a while back that showed some pics of an amazing indoor koi pond...can't remember his name maybe he will see this and reply.
I think that you should find the local pond building guru and bring them in on this project. Are the cust. already Koi folks or do they just think it would be cool to have an indoor pond? If the later, run away as they have no clue what they would be getting into.
You say its in the basement but its open to a giant atrium? If its in a big space thats going to be better. If you are going to have Koi you need deeper than a foot-2' would be better. You are going to need a good sized mech room to house the pumps-filters. An indoor waterfall can be loud but you would run two pumps-one for the filtering that would always be on and one for the waterfall when they want that effect. You are going to have to break out the existing slab to run the drains and plumbing.
I don't know of anyway to manage the hummidity in that situation. You would need some sort of giant-automatic dehumidifer sucking the water out of the air before the moisture can mold stuff in the other side of the house. If this was a sealed space that would be possible I would think.
These people gotta have some serious bucks to be even contemplating this so I can't imagine that the extra cost for the elec would have them worried.
I think that this would be a super fun project to be apart of but only if these folks were real serious Koi heads or that they have so much money that it doesnt matter to them...
Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
With a giant Atrium and a 12x16 pond, your clients are not worried about a $1500 watermanagement system or not even a $5000 Ecosystem HVAC system.
Can I assume that the 12x16 is merely the space allocated for the water feature? There will be landscaping and decor around it?
A fish filled water feature is an ecology, one that must be designed around it's inhabitants. Find a good aquarium tender to discover what you need to consider about that. Then talk to a water feature landscaper. Then get the two of them together.
Don't forget engineering the basement eco-lighting system.
Your clients are trying to marry 3 different ecologies into one structure. They're going to need some serious atmospheric control systems built in.
The Aquarium aspect is going to require a twice or three times a week service contract. Automatice feeders might reduce that to once a week.
Looking down from the atrium,hunh? Like a grotto.
Put an air curtain across the opening?
Can I come play? Uhm. . . I mean, do ya need a helper?
SamT
Now if I could just remember that I am a businessman with a hammer and not a craftsman with a business....."anonymous". . .segundo
Was a Koi pond in a local flower shop--the Koi were always on the surface gulping air. I kept telling the owner to aerate the water more than the little waterfall they had. Suddenly the Kio were all dead and the pond is no more--after thirty some years!
I also think if you use concrete or mortar you must seal it or the alkali will hurt the fish.
I'm in southern Japan, living in a 10th floor condo, and the old lady who owns the first 2 floors of this building has a koi pond on the second floor. Hers is outside on the balcony. The koi are really resilient fish. They have then all over here outside in ponds, rivers, etc. They'll live just about anywhere and thrive. I wouldn't have them indoors, its not a good idea, considering moisture issues, mold, sanitary issues, etc. Its just a bad idea. Maybe try and convince your customer otherwise. Even here in Japan, where they are from, you don't see Koi indoors....unless they're on a sushi plate..!
Scott
You might try the Discover Center.
http://www.mdc.mo.gov/areas/kcmetro/discovery/
Not sure what all they have their but they do have project with recycling water and some of them might use a water gardens.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Yikes... the weight would be about 12 tons... 24,580 ish. That is one heckuva flood if it gets loose. Fish are tricky... they need lots of water and they can easily throw off water pH with poo/ uneaten food.
There was someone who did a koi pond over a garage, huge job. I think there was a stack of pictures on breaktime at some point.
Well my numbers are in, and the home owner is not happy. So I thought I would see what you guys think.
Demolition of Slab $700
New slab $1750
Masonry walls w/plaster $5200
Pond finishing and mechanical $7000
Concrete floor stain and engraving $1100
Total $15,750
Plus my mark up ? 20% = $3150
Grand total of $18,900
Is this high? The home owner says she can put a swimming pool in outside for about $20k.
Attached is a drawing of the pond.
of course they are not happy... that's normal...
do you have measures to go with those figures???
20% is a bit low.. is that 20% profit or overhead???
1st impression is you are not high...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
The pond is roughly 18'x10' and 2' tall. Actual wall length I don't have.
The 20% is for profit and overhead. I have a growing company and currently still learning what my exact overhead is. Reading how to price and experimenting with pricing seems to be working so far, but not sure. I guess I am growing to fast to know. Could be worse? For this project I looked at it this way...
$3150 for profit and overhead. The math I have done I need to charge $75/hr to cover my expenses and make a small profit. To justify the 20% to myself I figured this $3150/$75 = 42hrs. I currently have probably 16hrs into this job if I get it or not. So that leaves me with 26hrs to manage it and make sure it is done to the home owner liking.
Yep, not charging enough!
Problem is they have a lot of work for me in the future that I know how to price (3000 sq feet of finished basement with a home theater) so I want to make them happy.
you are too cheap as if I were doing it......
12 to 16% too low for P&O as an acculmative number for me...
you can't possibly get that done in 26 hours...
are the saying there is more work after this pond??? - if you treat us right here of course...
do not be afraid of the price... do not justify... you have to get what need to make a living... charge what you need...
there is always omebody cheaper as well as there are those that charge more...
I hope you are charging them for this work up seperate from the actual job...... Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
BTW.. is this future work under contract or just promises???Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Long story short. The home owners are a friend of a friend and he is doing their structured wiring. The home is being built, and the home owner is unhappy with the builder. So the basement, home theater, and a few odds and ends are being putt off untill they close on the house. After words they would like the rest finished.
The whole project seems to be poorly planed (e.g. the Koi Pond). The house has been rocked and is currently being taped. The plumbing for the pond filtration was not done correctly. That is why the slab needs to be demoed and repoured (extra cost). There is no water supply to the pond for filling or dedicated electrical for the pumps. Just to mention a few of the items adding the expense of the project.
Was there a plan?
I am more or less contracting the pond as a favor because (I may be wrong and I not know the whole story) the builder is not handling it and it needs to get done. Doing this in hope to get the rest of the job.
Maybe I should just step back and let the builder deal with it. Because this is why I am up a 4 am!
Thanks for letting me vent.
Do your business a favor and pray you DON'T get this job.
or
Quickly "find" an error in your math and double that bid.
From your previous posts, I thought you were trying to break into the high end custom creations market. From the ones you've put here today, it more looks like you wanna be a bottom feeder.
26 hours unpaid estimating time.
Doing it as a favor.
Giving a "foot in the door" bid in hopes of higher profit work later. HAH! That never happens. They will always insist that any later work is done as cheaply as the one that "got you in the door."
Earlier in this thread, I was thinking, ballparking, this job in the $30k - $150k range, and now you're saying $19K!!!!!
But, you're kinda just startying, aren't you? I remember when I was there, I would carefully count sticks and nails and preplan every move and minute. Then I started doubling my numbers. THEN, I started doubling them again. After that, I started showing some profit, and getting better clients, too.
20 years later, Breaktime convinced me to charge for doing a Proposal for larger jobs and stop giving free, 26 hour "estimates."SamT
So much of the success of a company is not determined by degrees but temperature. gb93433 83537.46
Trying to get off the bottom. Guess I am going about it wrong.
Your right I need to walk away.
Sounds like this "CUSStomer" isn't happy with anyone. New home? Work after closing? In case you haven't noticed, property prices are flat, or even falling. You work will not be part of the first mortgage, there won't be any equity from climbing prices, and the customer won't have the money in addition to his mortgage payment. Friend of a friend? Why should they get a price break? They already have the peace of mind of knowing you're a reputable guy. Let them take their chances with the phone book. If they're such great friends, they won't mind paying you a bit more than the 'bottom feeders' want. Save your sympathy, They can live without a koi pond. I'd run like mad from this job ... tell them it's beyond your abilities, and to find a specialty contractor.
I'm not trying to bust yur butt...
the estimate... I would have charged for it seperately from the work..
1700$ plus...
this is the moment of truth or concequences... they baulk or try the whining bit or promise more in the future for less now... you walk...
there are a lot of people out there willing to pay fair for fair... simple...
arm twisters and beat ya down types have to get off of the bus...
seem to me that the GC is trying to bail with his butt intact.. or as much of it as he can...
talk to him.. get another perspective.... there is alot more here than your party to... listen for the context of the conversation in addition to his words....
unless that basement is under contract.. it doesn't exist and is all smoke and mirrors... hope is nice to have but it doesn't feed the family...
I've done several of these ponds... 20K is just opening money...
28 to 30K for a nice one that works...
never take over somebody's botched one BTW...
now that's a real pain to get flying...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
BTW.. you sell yurself short here..
you have dug yurself a hole these people will never let you out of...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Everybody's advice has been welcomed greatly and will be used.
Looking back, the worst expiernce I have had so far was my customer (another so called friend) nickeled and dimed me to death when I gave him my estimate and then he wanted everything for nothing. After that I told myself, "My price is my price, if they like or not, they can take it or leave it!" I guess I was/am overwhelmed with the scope of the possible future work.
I guess they can take it or leave it. Let them try to manage it!
Still learning here, trying not to be a bottom feeder.
Thanks again!!!
I hope you find a math error and get yur final price bunped up...
can you recover at least the estamating costs????Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
The home owner says she can put a swimming pool in outside for about $20k.
Only if its made from OSB.
If you're going to pursue this, you need to talk to an engineer.
The moisture alone would be a big problem that would have to be dealt with directly. You're basically creating a natatorium, and would need serious ventilation, otherwise you're going to have an indoor air quality issue. Think mold.