Hey guys,
First time posting here at breaktime, but a long time member of knots.
I build cabinets for a living, so far all have been face frame with overlay doors. I have a customer looking for inset doors and drawer fronts on their cabinets and I don’t have a clue about where to start. They want a standard raised panel door with a beaded edge so my plan was to build the doors and apply the beading taking into account the face frame opening (and leaving 1/16″ or 3/32″ reveal around the door).
Can anyone point me to some info online on construction ideas/tips, as well as hardware sources? I would like to stay with euro hinges if possible.
This will also be my first job using dovetailed drawers and blumotion soft-close slides. Any input about those would be a blessing as well.
Thanks in advance,
Lee
Replies
Lee, I build with overlay doors also, so can't help ya much there. Although I have been toying with the idea of using inset doors on my own kitchen (maybe this winter). I did see this at JLC - has a little info.
http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39563
Are you making your own dovetail drawers or buying them? I make my own - just whipped up ten this morning, ten more to do tomorrow.
Mike
articcat,
Are you making your own dovetail drawers or buying them?
I'll be buying them. Since I am a one man shop I try to outsource some things to speed the process. Homeowners and contractors alike don't like to wait.
On my personal projects I like to make them.
Thanks for the link!
Lee
Would you consider buying instead of making?
JMadson,
As for the drawers, see my post to articcat. I will be buying them to save some time.
Doors I usually also outsource to a company in Arkansas (Cabinet Door Shop). On this job the customer wants sinker cypress cabinets. Cabinet door shop offers cypress, but not sinker. I may contact them and see if they would be willing to make the doors if I ship them the lumber, otherwise I will possibly end up making them myself.
Lee
Lee
I've built a number of inset door/drawer cabinets and I don't think you'll have any trouble doing them. The big difference is that you have to make sure everything is square and stays square - something you probably already do with overlay doors!
I'd give some serious consideration to adding the bead to the FF rather then having it on the door/drawer fronts. For one, its much easier and for another reason I'd worry about expansion contraction of the doors for that beading.
Typically if I need to add beading to the door/drawer fronts I do mitered as opposed to cope and stick.
Here is a couple examples of FF's with the beading and doors/drawers with the beading. I've never added beading to a stick and cope door and I don't think I would, maybe I'm wrong but it seams like a accident waiting to happen.
All three sets of these cabinets use Euro hardware and two of them have Blumotion drawer guides.
When I build the boxes I try to have the inside of the box even with the inside edge of the FF, makes for mounting the Euro hinges fairly easy.
I use 1 1/2" FF's so that makes it easy to butt two cabinet boxes together thus giving me my flush inside edges that I like for hardware.
Doug
Hi Doug,
Thanks for the photos. A few questions:
Adding the bead to the FF - Had not thought of that. The customer asked for "beaded doors" when we spoke on the phone. I meet with them on Wednesday to measure and talk details before I give them a quote. They may be fine with the beading on the FF and I especially don't want problems if I use a cope and stick door.
I would assume you miter and glue or nail the beading to the inside of the face frame opening? In your photos it almost looks like you cut the profile into the face frame.
If the inside of your box is flush with the FF then does your hinge plate mount on the FF or to the box itself, similar to the way a frameless hinge would mount?
My biggest concern is outsourcing the dovetail drawers and getting the sizes right and also the mounting. They look complicated. Any tips or insight?
How do you control the depth of the blumotion slides to make the drawer front flush with the face frames? Is ther some sort of adjustable stop?
Sorry for all of the questions, but thanks for letting me pick your brain.
Lee
Lee
I would assume you miter and glue or nail the beading to the inside of the face frame opening? NO In your photos it almost looks like you cut the profile into the face frame. Yes, so much easier!
You run all your FF stock with the bead on it. Its very easy to mate the FF's together.
I have some pictures of how I do that but I need to search a little more for them. Gary Katz has a method that he uses to make is pieces mate that is very good, I haven't used it but it does look like a good thing to have if your going to do more then one set of these. I always say I'll build one of the jigs that he uses but........
does your hinge plate mount on the FF or to the box itself
Depending on your hardware but the Blum hardware that I used mounts to the box. If you've used Blum hardware you know there is no parts numbers that mean anything so you have to either use a Blum book or experiment with the hinges and mounts, that's how I did it. If you have problems let me know, I'm sure I can dig up my examples for ya.
My biggest concern is outsourcing the dovetail drawers and getting the sizes right and also the mounting. They look complicated. Any tips or insight?
I've built dovetailed drawers and bought them out, I prefer the latter! All I can say is measure everything 8 times before ordering them and then measure one more time just for good measure! Seriously, I do a double measure just to make sure because once you place the order their your drawers - whether they fit or not!
Most of the places that make drawers will make them for the hardware that you use. For e.g. if your going to use blumotion guides all you have to do is order them that way, they will come ready for you to install the hardware. That is really a nice feature to buying them out.
One thing that I might warn you about regarding the drawers. Make sure that all your inside boxes are flush with the inside of the FF. If not you'll have more room inside the box then you anticipated. For instance, if I'm building a stack of drawers and the box cant be flush with the inside of the FF then I fur that in, usually using an extra piece of ply or MDF(whatever your box sides are, placed vertically where the hardware will mount) That will give you what you need for the hardware and the drawers.
How do you control the depth of the blumotion slides to make the drawer front flush with the face frames? Is there some sort of adjustable stop?
Mock up an example and then measure back how far the hardware has to be to leave the drawer flush. It's really that easy. I don't recall the exact amount but once you find it it should be good for the whole job.
Another thing that should be mentioned and Piffin touched on it. If you make your FF with the bead on it make your door/drawer fronts with about 1/16th over so you have something to plane off for minor adjustments. eg, if you have an opening of 20" and you allow 3/32nds for revel then your door would be 19 13/16ths wide. I make that door 19 and 7/8ths so that I have some to work with. If the door fits in the opening perfect then just set the table saw/EZ/Festool to recut it at 19 13/16ths and clean up your saw marks and set the door.
Sorry for all of the questions, Just like over at Knots, that's what this place is for!
Doug
Doug,
I would be very interested in seeing how you mate the face frames together with the beads on them. I've seen a machine at Redmond and Sons that notches the face frames where the mating piece fits but that's $8000 I don't have. Who knows when the next job I do like this will pop up.
Thanks again,
Lee
Oops! I posted before I saw your reply.
Edited 10/23/2007 12:09 am by mapleman
You don't need no stinking $8000 machine!
I forgot to mention that I pocket screw all my FF's together.
When you see the rails intersect at the style and the bead continues from both directions - I make my miter cuts on the style, both directions, and then take the appropriate chisel and just push down on the inside piece and cut it out. That's the part that the Katz jig does for you but my chisel does it just as good. I don't care if the back side is not perfect, matter of fact I want it to back cut just ever so slightly, that way I know that the front of my FF's will mate up tight as hell! See the pic.
View Image
Another thing worth mentioning, bid this thing accordingly!
I built this set of cabinets for a house in Austin TX, the guy that I subed the cabinet work for came to me and said that he was going to allow $25,000 for the cabinet work. I told him that he was going to loose his azz on the job, he reluctantly listened to me and changed the bid to $32,500 and when the dust had settled he made his 15% without ever doing so much as touching a stick of wood or lifting a cabinet into place. There is a lot more time involved in this kind of cabinet then overlay cabs. But I would rather never build a set of over lay again. This is so much more fun.
If you need any more info just ask, I know that I dont articulate my thoughts very well but sometimes I can suppliment with the appropreate picture!
Doug
Edited 10/23/2007 12:20 am ET by DougU
Edited 10/23/2007 12:25 am ET by DougU
Hi Doug,
Yes, I pocket screw also. Gave up on biscuits long ago! I see what you are saying about cutting the waste out with a chisel. Could you do this on the stiles as well? Or better to do like your instructions.
As for the Katz jig, is there a link to this somewhere?
Oh and thanks for the pics they make everything clear as a bell - and I know what you mean about getting home to find cruddy pics on the camera!
One more question - I understand what you mean about furring in the side of the drawer bases for the slides. I do this with blum epoxy coated slides and full extension slides. I screw a piece of pine to the ply box to bring it even with the FF. Lately I have noticed once the cabs are in I can't shim the slides side to side to straighten the drawer (like if the wall is out of square for example). So I went back to using those face frame adapters that slide on the back of the drawer slides. I also see Blum makes these for the tandem undermount slides. Do you need to fur the sides for this type of drawer slide since it is under the drawer? And do you need those adapters for the rear of the slide?
Lee
Bid this thing accordingly
Yeah, that's what worries me. I know going into it it will require more labor and time. I plan to bid a little high, just hope I don't short-change myself.
Thanks again for all of your help!
Edited 10/23/2007 12:36 am by mapleman
Lee
As for the Katz jig, is there a link to this somewhere?
I've seen it on the net and in print but I dont remember where. You could check over at JLC but I will look as well.
Lately I have noticed once the cabs are in I can't shim the slides side to side to straighten the drawer (like if the wall is out of square for example)
Can I assume by the wall being out of square that you are talking about he house wall? If so that has no bearing on the cabinet box because you need to set that plumb and level. If your talking about the box wall being out of square then you need to make sure your building it square and setting it square as well.
tandem undermount slides, my bad, I've been refering to these as blumotions - should have said tandems but I think you knew what I meant.
Do you need to fur the sides for this type of drawer slide since it is under the drawer?
Yes the mounts for the drawer are under the drawer but the mounts that go inside the box do mount on the side of the box, so yes, I fur the sides in, same as I would for any other drawer slide.
I'd have to get out a tandem to speak effectivily but just like when I using full extension drawer sides like the ones you see in my pix of the alder cabinets I will allow for a little play. eg, if the inside of the ff/box is 20 and on a regular full extension drawer guide where you subtract 1/2" for each side, or 1" for both, I subtract 1 1/16" because i can make that up a whole hell of a lot easier then if my drawer box is to big! I would make my drawers 18 15/16ths strong and everything works great. I dont have the measurments for a tandem right now so I cant give you the proper example here. I think 5/8ths is the number that I would need to use but I'd have to take a look for sure.
I hope I'm not confusing you on this stuff. I can show you a lot easier then tell you!
Doug
Doug,
You are definitely not confusing me - in fact you have turned a lightbulb on in my head.
A few more??'s:
I have been interchanging the terms tandem and blumotion - I will be using the blumotion slides. I went as far a year or so ago to buy a sample drawer and blum slides. I thought I had the blumotion slides but it turns out they are just the tandem self-closing ones. If I am reading correctly, these are identical except the blumotion has the little pneumatic cylinder built in? Reason I ask is I can use this drawer and set of slides to do some experimenting.
Also it looks like there is a different locking device for inset drawers than overlay drawers? Does the locking device mount/screw to the drawer box underside permanently? In other words, does this part stay on the drawer when you remove it?
I was able to download a Blum PDF on their tandem slides from woodworker's supply. Has some accessories I had not seen before. Have you used the blum drawer front adjusters, or do you have a better way to mount the drawer fronts to the drawers?
Thanks,
Lee
Lee
Ok first things first. here is the link to Gary Katz and the jack miter jig that he built to make the cuts for the FF's. His jig is for casing but as you'll see it will work just as well for FF's.
http://www.garymkatz.com/TrimTechniques/jack_miter_jig.html
....Reason I ask is I can use this drawer and set of slides to do some experimenting. I believe that you are correct on that.
Also it looks like there is a different locking device You lost me here? What do you mean by locking device? Maybe I'm missing the obvious.
I've never really liked any of the drawer front adjusters very well but my choice is to use a screw that has a pretty big washer like head on it. I will have to look and see what they are called. They are meant for this application though. The screw shaft is normal size and you drill a hole in the drawer box that is about twice, three times the size of the screw shaft, You snug the screw up through the drawer box and into the back side of the drawer front. Then make your final adjustments, once you have the drawer front where you want it you tighten the screws up and your done. Because the head is much larger then normal it will cover the entire hole no matter where you place the screw. I will often times add some more screws from the drawer box into the drawer face just to keep everything where it needs to be.
I've used those little plastic cylinders where you drill the hole in the back side of the drawer front and friction fit the cylinder in. There is a little threaded nut inside the cylinder that moves around and with a screw from the inside of the drawer you have the same movement that you have with the special screws that I use, just that my way is much easier for me! God I don't even understand what I just typed, hope you make sense of it!
Doug
Doug,
at first I thought I was calling them the wrong thing but a quick look in the catalog and blum calls them "locking devices"
They are the orange plastic things that mount (screw) to the underside of the drawer that attach the drawer to the slides? I think? This is what I have gleaned from looking in catalogs.
Lee
P.S. Thanks for the Katz link - I'm off to check that out next
Ok, I know what you mean by the locking devices.
Yes, they are permanent. and they are the only thing that mechanically connects to the drawer.
Then you set the drawer box on the guides that are mounted to your box sides and the orange pieces are what locks the drawer to the guides. If you want the drawer off/out all you do is reach underneath and pull those orange pieces towards each side, which will release the guides and out comes the drawer.
there is also a part of the guide that indexes into the back of the drawer where you previously drilled a hole. that part now has an adjustment built into it which is quite handy.
Doug
I have only built one kitchen load of beaded/flush doors, but I agree that beading the faceframe makes way more sense. I also milled the bead on the edge of the frames, makes the grain continuous across the face, quirk and bead.
To make those joints where a double beaded joins a bead, like at a mid rail meeting a stile, I used a radial arm saw set at the proper height and blade 45 degrees from plumb - cut both angled edges then slides the wood sideways to clean out the flat. Cleans up very easilly with a sharp chisel.
I like to use rear mounting clips for side mount drawer slides. That allows me to overhang the faceframe 1/4" inside the inside face of the box, allowing for a little fudge factor but still making hardware installation a breeze. I like the ability to slide the back end of the slides one way or the other to smooth out the drawer operation instead of being stuck with the sides of the box - pretty common to get a little binding if the drawer or box isn't EXACTLY square (or even if it's a Monday).
Loren Wallace for president.
Guys,
Following up on this discussion (which I realize is from the archive). I'm building two built-in cabinets for the dining room. The Doors are fully inset, cope-stick with raised panels. There is a bead detail on the FF. The cabinet doors will each have Rails/Stiles that are almost four inches wide (3 7/8 inches). Should I increase the size of the bead on the FF as well or does that stay constant? Any recommendations on the size of the bead for that thick a door frame?
Thanks.
FR
It depends on the context. How are other things in the house detailed? Is it an early house? A Victorian? Newer?
But personally I probably would not bump up the bead as I think it would get a little horsey looking. But again, it would depend on the context of the house.
Attached is a photo showing a 3 1/2 door casing with a 1/8" radius bead right nest to a 5 inch wide casing with a 1/4" radius bead. I only did the heavier bead on the wider door casing because other doors of the same scale in the house were already that way.
View Image
I routinely do 1/8" radius bead cabinets with a 3" rail/stile. Maybe do a test. It might look alright with a 3/16" radius bead.
Steve
Guys,Thanks for the input. Ironically, every piece of molding in the house has a Windor type casing with a 1/4 inch bead on the inside. However, I agree it would look out of place on the built in. I'll probably go with the 1/8 bead.I've watched every minute of the Norm series on cabinets. That was a very practical approach to building cabinets.FR
Lee
Here is how I do the FF's. Later I'll dig up the link to the Katz jig that he uses and you can figure out which method works best for you. Like I said in my other post, the Katz jig is a good idea if your going to do more then the one set of cabinets.
I made a simple jig to make my miters on.
View Image
Her is how it sits in the chop saw. This will give you your miters on the rails. Cut one side for a single bead rail and both for a double.
View Image
View Image
I left out a step but I dont have a pic of it. You see in my pictures how to make the miters on the rail but not the style. For the style I tilt my table saw to 45 and set the height to the exact amount to just cut the bead, then stand my styles up and using stop blocks for exact repitition I pass the style over the blade. Then once I have all the miters cut I take the style on the flat and run it into the table saw to cut off the bead so that the rail mates properly. If you have two table saws it will help! Otherwise you just have to plan accordingly.
View Image
View Image
Doug
Edited 10/23/2007 12:11 am ET by DougU
Doug,
Let me preface my latter comment with my former comment - you are an incredible woodworking. That is some nice work.
But, do you know where the focus is on your camera. I want to see the details but I feel like I have my glasses off.
JM
But, do you know where the focus is on your camera. I want to see the details but I feel like I have my glasses off.
OK dammit I dont know when I'm to close! Hell by the time I load the pix on the computer its to late to go back and retake the shot!
Doug
"OK dammit I dont know when I'm to close! Hell by the time I load the pix on the computer its to late to go back and retake the shot!"Find out what the close focusing distance is for your camera (read the instruction manual if necessary or experiment) then cut a thin dowel or stick or whatever to that distance and then use that as a guide to how close you can get to your subject.
(read the instruction manual if necessary
Your kidding right!
I say that I need to read the instructions just so that I know what all this camera will do but I received it on fathers day and haven't saw the instructions since!
Someday?
Doug
Edited 10/23/2007 12:54 am ET by DougU
Fine Homebuilding had a great article on building face frame cabinets on site.
"Building Kitchen Cabinets on Site" by Joseph Lanza
FH126 Pages 64-69 Nov-1999
Or if you have the subscription, do a search.You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv
I have found that most of my recent techie toys have manuals on the Internet. Go to the manufacturer and then look for something like "service and support". You generally have to enter the specific model number and then the manual for that model can be downloaded in .pdf format.
I prefer to add the bead to the face frame around the openning. sizing and adjusting the doors is fine work and they need some shaving, especially in a climate like moine where they move from summer to winter. Hard to shave much for fitting when the bead is on the door.
You need your design to allow for stops. They can be just a sliver 1/4" thick glued behind the face frame. On wall cabs, I can usually get the shelves to act as stops, but thaat does not always work on the base units, esp with pull-outs.
Plan extra time for the fitting and alignment - as much as an hour per unit. This style is unforgiving.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
apply the beading
My first thought is in the drawer stacks--they are fussy at the best of times, which might disincline me towards an applied beading.
I'd likely plan on buildicg the door & drawer frames to "weak on" the exact openings, then marking them out and cutting them to fit, Then, beading their edges.
That also means not having glue, joints, pins or the like right where the cup bores wind up on the doors, too.
Be prepared for some sticker shock for hinges for flush/inset doors on faceframes if they open more than 90º too.
Back in my perdition at the cabinet shop, we found a stock hinge that allowed our sales weasles to change from a stock hinge & overlay to a high dollar one at the last moment in the process--it looked like some sort of mechanical grasshopper out of a japanese monster movie (and about the same number of moving parts). Expensicve, but middling easy to install (good for the Door Department) and opened 160, 170º or so. Only hinge scarier-looking was the wrap-around inside-corner cup hinge we used on right-angle-corner cabs.
Done right, there's not much to compare to a flush/inset job--it's just not something you can compare to KD & flat-pack at all.
Be prepared for some sticker shock for hinges for flush/inset doors on faceframes if they open more than 90º too.
......it looked like some sort of mechanical grasshopper out of a japanese monster movie (and about the same number of moving parts).
My Boss in Austin used to call those hinges Back hoes! And your right on about the cost.
Doug
Here's something that might be interesting: http://www.josephfusco.org/Tips/Quirk_bead_02.htmlhttp://www.josephfusco.org
http://joes-stuff1960.blogspot.com/
call those hinges Back hoes
LoL! Backhoe, on average, looks a lot less dangerous to nearby fingers <g>.
But, those hinges work. Ought to, for the price tag.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I'll go against the grain here and say that I make lots of cabinets with beaded face frames, and I always mill and attach the bead separately. Most of my work is painted and time is always of the essence; the slight drop in quality is never seen by the owner but the $$$ is.
I rout the bead on both edges of a board, then rip and thickness plane to size. Make up a regular face frame with pocket screws and sand. Pre-cut a bunch of 45's on the beaded pieces, hold in place and mark for length, cut the other angle, get all openings filled then go back and glue and pin nail them together.
Another advantage is that it's something I can have a moderately skilled helper do while I'm starting something else.
If it was fine furniture, or a really nice natural grain, I'd do something like what DougU does with a jack miter; I jack miter other stuff all the time and know it's a good way to do things. But for everyday built-ins I think applying the bead is the way to go.
Not a great picture but an example of when I've done it this way:
View Image
You nake some good comments there on the bead.We have done about four kitchens and several other miscellaneous pieces with the beaded edges. We learned real fast not to bead the doors and drawers, but when it comes to the bead, I prefer to mill the bead as part of frame like Doug, but one of the cab guys I have subbed to uses separate bead exclusively and makes it look good even on stain grade. The other guy works for me and built the first one or two like i do with the bead milled as part of the face frame.
One the last onme, he went ahead and changed to applying it separate. He says he will never go back to the other way again.Advantages are - faster, and it uses up off-rips for those smaller pieces making for more efficient use of wood, and like you said, the helper can be adding the bead. I think modern tooling makes this an option that works, but back when the tools were hand tools and hide glue and hand nailing, it was not a good choice.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Re techniques for installing and aligning drawerfronts, and dialing in those perfect reveals and margins, go to the Woodweb site.
Under the cabinetmaking forum section, search for the "knowledge base articles," then scroll and select the one on the topic of drawerfront installation and alignment.
You'll see what a lot of the cabshop pros are doing to address this.
I like the use of margin stickers and doublesided tape, myself.
Gene,
Thanks for the tip, I will check over at Woodweb - I forgot they have a cabinet making section.
Lee
Advantages are - faster, and it uses up off-rips for those smaller pieces making for more efficient use of wood, and like you said, the helper can be adding the bead. I think modern tooling makes this an option that works, but back when the tools were hand tools and hide glue and hand nailing, it was not a good choice.
I bet if those old-timers had 23ga pin nailers, aliphetic resin glue, and routers they'd be applying the bead most of the time too. I definitely respect the craftsmanship it takes to do it the traditional way though.
Mike,
Thanks for your reply. Your points are well taken. I am actually leaning toward doing it your way as I am pretty nervous about the dovetail drawers and blumotion slides already. I know I can do it the other way but it would be one less thing to obsess over ;)
Lee
Lee,
You might want to take a look at Norm Abram, they just did a 9 episode series on kitchen cabinets and the drawers and doors are inset.
Greg