Is there a standard or rule of thumb in sizing and design of trim to use in a house? Do you use a certain width of base mold or crown depending on ceiling height or casing depending on something?
I want to change the old molding in my house but do not know if it is architecturally correct.
Thanks,
Paul
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Replies
It usually depends on preference, style of decor (country, victorian, etc.) or my suggestions to a customer. Good rule of thumb, the taller the ceiling height, the larger the molding.
taller that walls...taller the trim. Older the house....more complex the trim. If the inside trims all been replaced...and you have nothing to go on.....check the exterior for some clues. Depending on age....and location....and who built it......it could have originally been basic 2 piece base and flat casing to 3 piece base, chair rail, picture rail and built up crown.
Then again.......it's your home now........make it what you want....that's what the original builder did! Just keep everything the same scale and level of detail. There have always been hundreds of profiles to choose from. JUst because they did basic at first isn't a reason you can't finally dress her up.
Just don't put ranch base and casing in a home with 9' ceilings and fireplaces in each room! Jeff "That's like hypnotizing chickens........."
Jeff-
Whatsamatta? Sumpin' wrong wit runnin' streamline in an old Victorian?
Ken Hill
I dunno Ken I like a old house to look old. Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"
Aw, c'mon Ron, get with the times. Why, you can buy that stuff at HD that's made out of foam plastic and it looks just like real wood and everything, already colored 'n stuff. Gee whiz.
".........right here under the handy laminated imitation masonite wild west gun rack, with the look of real wood..........."
Ken Hill
Paul,
There are a few points you need to consider that have laready been brought up.
"Architecturally correct" and "in-scale."
In general, colonial houses get colonial-style trim, victorian get frilly victorian-style trim. There are times when you can "cross-dress" a room...but it does depend.
The physical size of the molding needs to be in scale with the room, or, as you've aready surmised, the room can look out of whack. Larger rooms, larger trim.
I am somewhat of a stickler for molding, and I think that the only place in a house where "standard clamshell" molding should be used is in a roaring fire in the fireplace.
Built-up moldings can make big eye-candy for a reasonable budget...especially if you own a router/router table and can do some basic edge detailing yourself. the big boxes have, in my opinion, a pretty poor selection of trim. Take an hour and go see what's in a real lumberyard. Also, you'll be shocked at how easier...or maybe, how much easier...it is to trim out a room when using 16' lengths of trim instead of butting a bunch of 8' pieces together.
My "standard" trim has a base that varies from about 7" to 9.5", depending on the size of the room, and most of my window/door casing is about 5" to 6" in width and is a 4-piece built-up. Crown? I really don't have a "standard" crown. I don't know if I've ever installed the same style of built-up crown twice. Crown seems to vary in size, style, and scale on a room-by-room and house-by-house basis.
To me, trim really makes a room. I think it's one of the most under-utilized facets in room design and construction. You can get some trim ideas from "pretty house" magazines. Busy trim can be broken down into its built-up pieces, and you can work from there to replicate it in your own house.
To Mongo Molding: That was a real good reply to the question. Do you ever re-use molding taken from old demoed houses? I've been collecting old victorian trim for a few years now and wonder about lead content in the paint, if it would be better left alone and repainted as to getting involved in a paint removal scenerio? I'm not talking about quartermillion dollar homes. I'm talking renovation or restoration.
There was an excellent article in FHB about two years ago on designing and building built-up, larger moldings using different standard, off-the-shelf moldings (1x's firred out, topped by caps, etc.). My supplier has a whole wall of different "builtups" that are possible with the various parts. I think Craig Savage also covered molding sizing/types in one of his trim books. I'll see if I can find that issue of FHB and post the number.
rez,
I've only done reno/remodel "on the side"...helping family and friends, etc. In that case, yeah, we've visited salvage yards to replicate when neccessary. As a mtter of fact, I think it more appropriate to use salvage than new stock when renovating or restoring. Isn't it amazing what's available out there? Some really fabulous stuff. The problem I usually come across is usually quantity, in terms of not being enough reclaimed stock to run a room. Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
If I knew there was lead on the salvage, I'd have it commercially stripped. It's an added expense, but what little paint stripping I've done was a total drag, and it'd be even worse with a detailed or intricate high-relief piece of trim. I think it would be wise to not bring any new lead into the house to preclude any problems down the road. Who knows what "healthy house" code standards will possibly be passed in the future...regardless of how real-world effective they may or may not be?
In new construction, the only time I've every used an old piece is for something like a fireplace mantle or fireplace surround. In those cases, they're usually supplied by the homeowner/architect/designer. They've found them on their own and they're incorporated into the trim design. They're commercially stripped, and if wood, fumigated as well.
View ImageThey say lightning dosen't strike twice. . .
Let's hope so. . .
Exactly Joe, and also, most of the time you will find that service areas of the home get plainer trim than the money rooms.
As far as reclaiming materials, you can open a rat's nest of work. Decide on a job to job basis.
Joe,
If I'm trimming out a 14' room vs an 8' room, I'd give the 14 foot room larger crown and taller wainscotting. The taller wainscotting will include a taller base to keep the base in scale with the wainscotting. There are arguments that all base should essentially be the same height, as it's essentially viewed from eye-level regardless of the size of the room. I depart from that idea.
Doors and windows? Honestly, there's not a whole lot of wiggle room...maybe an inch or so from what I define as "big" and "small" window/door trim. If you get too large, the window can look plain silly.
In general, I personally prefer larger trim. "Larger" than what seems to be today's standard. I'll take a hit on that in terms of it not always being "correct." Good points on the "heavy vs light" idea...though being the stubborn arse that I am, I still prefer larger trim and I'd make it lighter, or less visually obtrusive, by painting it a color similar to the wall color so it doesn't jump out at you. For the heavier, or in-your-face look, a contrasting color will help. Virtually all trim I do is paint-grade colonial-type garbaje. Not a whole lot of stain, unless it's a whole-room paneled library/den type of room. Floor to ceiling cabinetry, wainscotting, etc.
Thanks for the email...I'll be over for a visit this weekend.
Regards, Mongo
I AM NOW PARTIAL DISCIPLE OF MONGO , HAIL MONGO
Lots of good comments here so far. No one answer is always correct on trims, but I generally agree with Piffin on his replies. I do generally keep trim sizes in proportion to room sizes. We do quite a bit of custom trims in our homes that are mostly of the older styles. I don't buy much trim from the lumber yards anymore and never any from the big box stores. Most of our trim comes direct from a local custom millwork shop or we mill it ourselves. Paint grade in our area is generally poplar, which is a little harder than white pine and our mill guy does a much better job on it than most "store bought" trim. He will mill anything we draw up, allthough there is a knife and setup charge for a custom profile. If I need that profile again he will have the knife allready the next time. Believe it or not, it isn't that much more expensive when doing whole house quantities. The poplar we use can also be stained if we let him know ahead of time. He will sort out the greenish and gray stuff for the paint grade. A good finisher can make the white poplar look pretty nice. If the customer wants to pay for it, we will do hardwood trims. Did a whole house a few years ago with all cherry base, casings, chair, crown, and 6 panel doors.
As Piffen mentioned, fanciest, largest trims generally in the most formal rooms in older homes, with plainer smaller trims in rooms where guests didn't visit, such as kitchen, bedrooms, etc. If it's your own home, do as you like though. One way to save costs is to use solid wood 6 panel doors on first floor living areas that might be stain or natural wood, solid masonite paint grade doors up in bedroom and closet areas. In those areas you can use some of the wider MDF paint grade trim for about the same money as pine 2 1/4" trim. Stick with your built up custom wood trims down in those living areas.
Joe and Mongo have said plenty of good advice her. All I would add is a caution in your planning. Most modern houses have the doors and windows laid out with 2-1/4" casings in mind. The hinge side of a door is often only three inches away from the adjacent wall so there is no room for a wide architectural scaled molding without ripping a chunk of detail off it. Roseettes and plinth blocks become a disaster, not to mention full head entablatures.
So look ahead...
Is it a pretty standard rule of thumb to trim all rooms in a house with the same style and size, or is it fairly common to vary in some rooms?
Also, how do I reply to "all" rather than to previous post?
When you have the reply screen up, suppose you have hit the reply button and are now typing in the words, "Thank You", just above the blank box you are working in is a gray bar that contains a field. That field now says from piffin to [DHoov2] your s might say from DHoov2 to piffin. Click on the little down arrow next to the field box and a drop down menu will give you a choice of names of those who are now on line. The first of these will be "all". Choose it.
I often work in old homes of all price levels with as many as three different trin styles. It is always the same within a room or suite. You will find the most elaborate in the entry and living room/ public type areas where you want show off for guests. Then the library, den, family room and bedrooms might be a step down but still nice because you spend a lot of time there. The storage and utilites areas will be the most plain, sometimes just flat stock 1x4s.
I do focus more on proportions like Mongo but not religiously. You can use cetain crown details to make a room or ceiling "seem" larger or higher. one way is a setped or builtup crown that incorporates a shadow gap. That will lift the ceiling if it is at least 8 feet already. If done on a ceiling only 7'2" or thereabouts, it is so close to eye level that it just looks goofy.
Wainscoting is the board on the wall at the lower portion. The band that tops it is called chair rail. Teh reason for this is that it is set at an elevation that prevents the top of a chair from banging up the wall, generally about 39" to 42". If you set it by proportions in a 14" high room it would be at six feet up - not right obviously. Of course the Craftsman stule would often have a wainscot type wall with the top trim at about 80% of the height.
Excellence is its own reward!
How old is your house? What period? What style?
As an architectural historian (I'll earn my Master's Degree sooner or later), I'd say that traditionally in residences, specific proportions weren't regarded nearly so much as simple conventions and vernacular, or just plain eyeballing it.
It all depends. In Monticello, Jefferson created all of his interior trim based very specifically and accurately on Andrea Palladio's proportioning systems. The residences of McKim Mead and White might also have classically derived proportions for interiors. Particularly grand homes in an Art Deco or Moderne style might also have interior trim based on classical proportions, albeit streamlined and simplified.
If a residence is generically "colonial," then common stock colonial trim should be adequate. If a residence is more of a proper neoclassical or beaux arts structure, then typically the best thing to do is figure out the proper type and proportions of trim by referring to the old pattern books, then reconstructing the profiles as accurately as possible with stock pieces.
In your typical Victorian residence, the millwork would have been put together from stock pieces from a catalog, much as it is today (though there seemed to be many more and much better choices back then). The architect or builder would choose what was available that best suited the scale of a given room. Conventions were widespread. A victorian farmhouse in Ohio might have casings and corner blocks exactly matching those of a San Francisco rowhouse.
With an older building, referring accurately to historic conventions is often the most important thing. Nothing looks tackier than a period house that's had it's original trimmings stripped and replaced with cloying cutesy "Victorian" or "Colonial" trimmings purchased from the local do-it-yourself center.
Wellcome to Breaktime and I look forward to reading more of your posts. PROPORTIONS AND CLASSICAL METHODS ARE INTRESTS OF MINE. Sorry - please excuse thae accidental all caps hit.
Excellence is its own reward!
Paul I think Mongo's
advice is really top of the line. Especially when he says "I
think that the only place in a house where "standard clamshell"
molding should be used is in a roaring fire in the fireplace."
With my company I recommend the following books
to beginning and intermediate finish woodworkers and you might find them helpful
too.
Finish
Carpenter's Manual: Timesaving tips and techniques for the modern
finish carpenter
by Jim Tolpin
This is our "required" finished
carpentry manual. When ever there is a question on how to do something
we default to this book. I also like how it gives man-hours for certain
finish carpentry tasks so that my tradespeople can use it to help estimate
and plan their time.
Decorating
With Architectural Trimwork : Planning, Designing, Installing:
by Jay Silber
This book with some great pictures to
get some basic ideas regarding what to do with trim and might be the
best book to help you begin to answer some of your original questions
regarding what to do.
Finish
Carpentry : The Best of Fine Homebuilding (For Pros by Pros Series):
Timesaving tips and techniques for the modern finish carpenter
by Jay Silber
An excellent all around collection of
some of the best articles from Taunton's FineHomeBuilding if you don't
already have a complete library of past issues.
Traditional
Woodwork : Adding Authentic Period Details to Any Home
by Mario Rodriguez
Another good book from Taunton. Mongo
said "...if you own a router/router table and can do some basic
edge detailing yourself." There are a couple of pictorial examples
of how in this book.
I also sort of agree with Joe
Fusco's comment "I disagree with the assessment
that "larger" rooms get "larger" mouldings. The only moulding
that should increase in size are "crowns", this is because that
with taller walls the "scale" needs to be adjusted for your eye.
A 5-1/2" crown in an 8ft room is not going to look or feel the same when
it's installed in a room with a 14ft ceiling." I say sort of agree
in that that is sort of generally true but it all depends on some subjective
design decisions that need to be made depending upon what you are trying to
achieve architecturally with the look you are using. In other words the design
of molding and trim effects is not always a simple basic black and white solution.
We've done a few jobs in the last few years where our crown molding had a
3/4" gap between the top of the crown and the ceiling. It gave the feeling
the the ceiling was floating above the walls rather than being supported by
them. Some people like it. Some people don't. (On two projects with that effect
all the AC was entering behind the crown and the cool air ran up and over
the molding so nowhere in the room could you see any intake vents.)
How you choose to size crown and base will also be decided by how you choose
to finish the trim too. A color that matches the walls and ceiling will tend
to blend in and disappear while a contrasting color will draw attention to
itself and make another statement altogether.
What you (Paul) might want to do is buy some moldings and tack up (mockup)
some pieces to see what you get. You might want to test some color combinations
out too to see what happens.
Jim Tolpin also has another book entitled
Measure
Twice Cut Once. In the first or second chapter there is a good explanation
of some of the proportional thinking and rules that can so in to designing
woodwork such as the Golden Rectangle, Fibionacci Progressions, etc.
if you really want to learn your stuff.
In general just go to the library and look through the architecture picture
books and just soak it all up. Tellurian's comment "Nothing
looks tackier than a period house that's had it's original trimmings stripped
and replaced with cloying cutesy "Victorian" or "Colonial"
trimmings purchased from the local do-it-yourself center. "
Avoid at all the DIY look. Think architectural. Think period. Think style.
Anyway good luck.
"Do not go where the path may lead, go
instead where there is no path and
leave a trail."-- Ralph Waldo Emerson
/SMH
Jerrald,
View ImageThey say lightning dosen't strike twice. . .
Let's hope so. . .
Joe I figured that was what you meant but when you wrote "The
only moulding that should increase in size are "crowns"
that sounded sort of absolute to me so I wanted to qualify my own general
agreement. Yup, it is subjective but there are some good basic rules and guidelines
built on thousands of years of history that still and will always make sense.
I've done projects with tall bases and virtually no crowns and vice versa.
I love design rules but I also love to break them too. I guess a caution I
would offer is to woodworking design neophytes: breaking design rules for
the pure sake of breaking the rules often leads to stupid idiotic looking
designs. Rule breaking generally takes experience and a firm understanding
of why the rules are rules in the first place.
"Do not go where the path may lead, go
instead where there is no path and
leave a trail."-- Ralph Waldo Emerson