A little involved…doing work at a customers house, she wants to ask a question…Daddy just moved into a house and needs to replace the drop-in oven-cooktop unit. They (she and daddy) went to Sears and bought a new 30″ unit, ’cause the old one was 30″…that makes sense. Installer shows up, wants $200 to pull the old unit and install the new one…he says the new one won’t fit the base cabinet so he has to do some re-work. Customer wants to know if I think that’s too much (and I honestly don’t think she is asking me to do the work). My first comment is that the price includes delivery and haul-off…but she says they paid a few dollars extra to Sears to cover both of those. So I think there might be a little conflict ijn the cabinet, but how much conflict can there be with two 30″ units? So I mentally calculate maybe (big maybe) 4 hours work at $50 an hour…no way it will take that long or he can charge that much…so I tell her it sounds high. She says daddy thought so too, and told the installer to forget the whole thing, so now the new unit is sitting in the garage. Does $200 sound reasonable?
Do it right, or do it twice.
Replies
well it depends on a lot of things, a simple switch out with no recutting of the top it seems a little steep
however if the countertop has to recut and maybe the cabinet as well to clear the unit maybe not so steep
is it an electrical unit? if so the fusebox inside the cabinet has to be replaced which requires an electrician to be legal( in ontario anyway), or gas in which a gas fitter has to make the connections(also in ontario)
i had a customer recently who got really upset because i refused(diplomatically) to hook up a gas cooktop, im a carpenter not a gas guy
realistically anybody can do either with a little knowledge and some basic skills but my insurance or peace of mind does not allow either electrical or gas work nor does the law
so be careful and check qualifications
if the guys a licensed electrician or gas fitter(as required) and is willing to recut the hole as required, its money well spent for the peace of mind
remember lives are at stake
caulking is not a piece of trim
200 is not out of line at all if the cut out is the right size then the stovetop might be a little deeper so you would have to cut inside the cabinet base connect the gas line and pressure test every thing 200 would not be to much i do alot of small jobs like this and i do not work by the hour i give a flat price before i start so even if i am able to do this in one hour i will still charge the same some times i make 50 bucks in 5 minutes but state my price first so you dont have an upset customer dont forget you have to charge for you liabilaty if that gas line leaks and burns the house down 200 dollars is not gonna pay for it
Its really hard to know. You get some things that go like a breeze, and others. You always have that little CYA line when you're working up a bid, you know. Guy yesterday got bent that I wanted $X for labor for counters. He said "gee, that's a lot for screwing down counters." and I just didn't even want to deal with it and we parted. But he's going to feel like a bonehead when he does it himself and discovers that he has to remove the old (glued down) the backsplashes (DW patching) which were laid before someone put tile over them, yank the sink, and then theres the stand alone units, the island, and 2 bathrooms as well, without shutoffs. Hope he has fun. I rethought things and don't think I had enough in it, you know?
Gut instinct is about as accurate as you're gonna get from the nosebleed section.
"The child is grown / The dream is gone / And I have become / Comfortably numb " lyrics by Roger Waters
elcid...y did you tell her the guy was a little high when the truth of the matter is you had no idea what the hell you were talking about ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Good question Mike. Based on the description she gave, and what I perceived to be the necessary work, I told her it sounded high to me. BTW it's an electric unit, so reconnection should not be an issue (kill the breaker, change the connections, close it up and start cooking). The iompression I got from the lady was that the installer quoted a price witout doing much investigating.
Granted, I have not changed a cooktup-oven unit, so that's why I asked.
Do it right, or do it twice.
sorry.. my only point is that the guy may be high , he may be low... but $200 doesn't go as far as it used to..
did the work tie the guy up for half a day?.. probably..
is $200 a good rate for a half day's work ? well, i wouldn't be interested in doing it for less....would you ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Cost doesn't sound out of line to me at all. Since this is residential, kitchen, electrical, etc. means a licensed electrician if the job is done to "code and regs." A low ball electrician will cost $80 just to show up, plus any extras and time.
30 inches, 30 sminches. I'm building a combination built in entertainment center, computer desk, bookcasecurio cabinet for a customer right now. Needless to say, I had to design the thing around the TV she finally decided she wanted. Not all 32" TV's are equal. I sure wouldn't want to bet anything on what "30 inches" means here sight unseen. Is that deep, high, wide, what? I forget code for this area, but it's something like 22 inch minimum from stove top to overhead. Maybe that's where it doesn't fit. Who knows. Also, I've seen more the one oven not fit because of the location of the plug receptacle on the wall even though they fit fine by tape measure in the show room.
Just a bit of the devils advocate here.
Don
Dang...I ask a simple question, and then spend the next 20 min defending myself. Guess it's my turn in the hot seat. Don, not to argue or belabor a point, but tv's and appliances arent't the same. You're exactly right about same "size" tv's being different measurtemnts, but I would expect that the appliance industry has pretty much standardized on the "named dimensions" by now, so that they can work with cabinet vendors.
Hey, if nothing else, this has been a good discussion for the lurkers to read. I knew going in that I was going to be pounded. I was looking for insight as to the things that could go wrong in an appliance swap.
Do it right, or do it twice.
Wow, sorry for the pounding. Wasn't my intention at all. Devil's advocate as I said and from a distance my intention was just to add the some possible insights about what might be going on. I also did this taking for granted the understanding that the guy could very well be a shyster also! 8^(
I am curious though if you know why the top did fit. What about the 30 inches didn't fit?
Don
No no Don! No offense taken! I have no idea what didn't fit.
Piff...good point about the 3 vs 4 prong plugs...forgot about that. If the existing cooktop is old enough to be replaced, then the house probably has the wrong receptacle.Do it right, or do it twice.
LMAO...how youre getting slammed all over town....lol. Sorry you opened your mouth??? lol
Actually you started a very good thread for people to think about simple estimates, never mind more complex estimates. I think they should use this example in contractor school....lol.
All really good responses.
I have customers saying things to me like, " this isn't a difficult job, right"?....meaning you're not going to charge a lot, right?
I hate those questions. My answer is usually, "not if you know what youre doing and liscensed and insured and and and.
All I can think when I'm saying that is~~if its not so hard then why don't you do it?
The answers about half a day is probably acurate when you take into consideration the time it took to look at it (going there and getting back to the shop), Then going there again and going back again as well as the supply house at some point and all the other points raised........
when asked if I charge T&M I always say no......none of their biz what I get an hour. To me each job dictates more or less knowledge and I charge accordingly in so many instances.
Trying to find a water leak for example from rain.
Well, by looking at the house I can usually see why water from twenty feet away is getting in over an old bathroom or why (just two weeks ago) the water stains are at the top of some clapboards and the condition under it.
A newbie "contractor" charging $50 an hour will take probably ten times longer than I will.
A recent customer said, because there was an old bathroom in the house that had tons of leak issues...Didnt make sense to me that the water stains in the problem at hand (water stains on the clapboards high uptop the house) were so high up and coming from an old bathroom.
Got up on my ladder and pulled the end of a loose capboard away a little and discovered the solid 1x6 sheating boards were completely rotted right down to the ground behind the clapboards and felt paper.Also noticed the roof was the only new thing on the house...duh....
They asked why I wanted so much to redo the siding. I did a lot of work for these people (Shglaw refrence)so I didnt charge to acess the problem being that I was there anyway but what if it wasn't a reference and I wasn't already there.
Should I have revealed the problem at no charge then ask for the residing/sheathing costs?
People need to pay for your knowledge not just the job in their face.
Be old...lol
andy
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
"People need to pay for your knowledge not just the job in their face." I couldn't agree more andy, many people have no idea what goes into learning a craft. i consider myself competent at several and master at more than one, yet i am still learning after a lifetime at construction works. there are many who post here that i look up to and have great respect for. i have made it a lifelong habit to be sure and say thank you when someone shares their knowledge, and i in turn share it freely with anyone who shows respect for the craft. it is this knowledge that is the key to "fine" homebuilding in my opinion, and the efforts of those who have taken the time to learn this knowledge are again in my opinion frequently underpaid compared to what some people in this unscrupulous society of ours earn. does the word "enron", to name one, stir an emotional response? because thats what i was thinking about when i responded in this thread.
30" vertical to combustibles.
Another issue I have been running into is that new electrical codes require four prong plug instead of older three prong. Pigtail and re-wireing recepticle is not cheap..
Excellence is its own reward!
"Another issue I have been running into is that new electrical codes require four prong plug instead of older three prong. Pigtail and re-wireing recepticle is not cheap."
Not exactly, unless you have a local code that overrides the NEC.
NEW circuits require a 4 wire branch circuit (and recptacle if used) for 240/120 volt stoves and dryers.
There is no requirment to change those if you are just replacing the appliance.
If using a plug in connection get the appropirate cordset and install it on the applinace and add remove the bonding strap on the appliance.
You're right Mike...$200 for a half day is reasonable...I just question if it's a half-day job...looking at it from across town :)Do it right, or do it twice.
ELCID72,
I think you obligated yourself to install that cooktop for the customer's Daddy. For a lot less than $200. In fact, in my judgement, you ought to be able to do the job for $85.
I'm not kidding.
Because you couldn't bring yourself to say "I can't tell you without looking at it, so I just don't know", you insulted the installer who was there and saw the situation. You also re-enforced the general feeling people have that contractors/installers are ripoff artists who overcharge. And, now the old boy has a new cooktop but can't use it.
What if they get another installer out and he gives an estimate of $200 or more? Gonna tell them that he's too high, too? Do you know what the installer's overhead is, or what houly wage he gets, or what profit he intends to make this year?
Nope, I say the honorable thing is for you to go out and install the thing.
How about it? Willing to put your money where your mouth is?
Cliff
No Cap I won't take the challenge. Lady said that daddy was going to call the maintenance/handyman at the apartment he just moved from, cause they got along real well, so the story has a sort-of happy ending. If the handyman charges $200, then that reinforces the going rate. If he charges less, I hope he gets what it's worth, and then both he and the customer think they got a good deal.Do it right, or do it twice.
ELCID-
Fair enough. You're a good sport.
I've found myself in the same situation. A mentor and good friend of mine overheard me on a job once doing what you did--judge someone else's estimate--and advised me to either say I didn't know, or offer to look at the situation and offer an estimate (if I wanted the work). Otherwise, don't second guess. And the same for techniques and materials--unless the work is dangerously bad.
Best regards,
Cliff
Have ya at least learned that $200 maybe ain't so high?
Only helps learing this stuff when U apply it to yourself.
Also notice most all mentioned the half-day deal.
Once again......think about applying such principals to yourself.
Even if the job takes "Only about an hour"....
Pretty hard to put 8 of those into one day.
Starting to make sense......ever wonder why service companied have a minimum charge....now ya know...and they're in the biz to make money....so should U.
I've explained to people before that it takes $150 just to get my van into their driveway....
Now the flip side of that coin....sales wise......making for the more satisfied customer.....is to then explain how that 2 or so hour job will cost $200.....but if they have enough work for ya....the full 8 hrs will only cost $350.
They benefit by getting the group discount.....
You benefit by getting another day in the year filled at your full billing rate.
Years ago we'd do tons of work for a landlord that wanted things done "his way".
Nothing that'd burn the place down.....but plenty of stuff that wasn't exactly the "right" way. We'd explain how the "right" way was....then say as long as he'd take full responsibility.......it was his party....and we'd have no problem doing it "his way".
Half the stuff we installed I'd hate for someone else to look at ...... right about that time I learned not to criticise other's work that I wasn't privy to the whole deal. Ya just never know what conditions the other guy was under.
BTW......$200 ain't a bad price at all.
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
Especially once you consider taxes and insurance. It's really a $120 to $130 dollar of income job.
;^P
i just wanted to weigh in here about costs and prices, i think that most of us don't get paid enough. everything is so expensive these days. i would like to see all tradespeople be paid better, and profit more than they do now in most cases. i would also like to see more emphasis on quality. i don't think you rip someone off by charging a high price, i think you rip them off by doing shoddy work. i don't want to underbid anybody, i want to do my best work on everything, and be paid well for it. i like building things, i am proud to be a craftsman, but this is what i do to feed my family. show me the money. if i got the job to install a cooktop for $200 i would earn every cent of it, and i would probably find more to do, which i would then want more money for. my grandfather used to say "just give it a lick and a promise", which means that he wants it done perfect or a little bit better. a good craftsperson would check many things even on a simple cooktop installation frinstance, and make sure that it would be properly done. the experience, knowledge, and attention to detail needs to be paid for. i would like for you to consider, can you afford to buy the house you build?
First, I think the discussion before you posted was pretty much in agreement that the $200 was probably appropriate, and I conceded.
Second, I don't agree with your interpretation of your grandpappy's "lick and a promise". I have heard that many times, and it was always in the context that the work in question was good enough to get by, but just barely. Certainly not approaching perfect. I would be interested to hear why you think it's a "quality" phrase.
i would earn every cent of it, and i would probably find more to do, Most of us here would earn every cent of the fee, because we would always be looking for the details. You would too. That's what makes it fine homebuilding.Do it right, or do it twice.
ElCid,
I have installed and changed out cook tops before. I would do it in most cases for $150. But then again that all I could get in my area and it is a moderate priced area to live in so I suppose $200 wouldn't be all bad depending on where you are. I sure admire the way you took the grilling though! DanT
elcid i did not mean to offend, and was not complaining to just you when i posted about not being paid enough. it is a general thing that i think is prevalent in this country, there are to many people out there who want to make their money by exploiting others instead of doing an honest days work. to many who want to manage, and not do. i think that those of us who do are worth considerably more than the middle managers. as for my grandfather, he owned hayward electric, in hayward california just east of san francisco, he was a union electrical contractor. i first went to work for him when i was about 10 or 11 years old.the old man was a perfectionist. every wire he ever ran was plumb or level, his thinking was if he ever needed to find a wire he wanted to know exactly where it would be when he went back to install a new outlet etc. on my first day he took me to the parking lot between the buildings, and told me to sweep it. i spent about 3 hours and was begining to get blisters. i went in and found grandpa tony at his desk and told him i was done and what did he want me to do next. the old man didn't say a word, got up from his desk and walked to back door. he stopped at the doorway without ever going outside and said "its not clean enough, sweep it again." i did my best to not cry in front of him and then hit the parking lot with everything i had. after only 2 months my salary was raised from 25 cents to 35 cents an hour. my dad and all my uncles said the old man was getting soft in his old age but i knew better, i had earned it. when he said give it a lick and a promise he meant he wanted it perfect or a little bit better. that old man taught me a lesson i will always be thankfull for, he taught me how to work. in my opinion nobody who has learned that lesson is paid enough, and when he works for you is doing you a favor.
No offense taken...just that I have always heard 'lick & a promise' used as a reference to shoddy work, or promises not kept, that sort of thing.
Do it right, or do it twice.
I am getting ready to install a Jen-air drop in for a customer to replace an existing very old drop-in. The Jen-air does not have front controls like the old oe and guess what, there is no counter top in the front. It will be interesting to make it look right.
Even though this job may not take the whole half day it probably will consume a half day.