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Installing a prehung door from hell…..

cdbeardie | Posted in General Discussion on June 28, 2005 02:09am

First off, sorry about the consonant name; it was generated at random by Taunton’s computer.

Anyway, I am ready to throw in the towel installing a prehung interior door. It was purchased at a discount store where you “save big money”. It didn’t work well the first time we tried to install it, so it sat in the basement for a month waiting for installers (my husband and I) to get more patience and time (bad idea, I know). No matter what we do, if we make sure the jamb is square and plumb (or even if it’s not, actually, it doesn’t seem to matter) the door hits at the top on the strike side. Even when the door is lying flat, it still doesn’t appear to have an even gap all the way ’round, either. In order to fit into the door jambs, you have to lift up and shove a tiny bit to get the door to close.

We are ready to give up and just sand the top of the door so it can close better. I’ve googled up umpteen directions and none of them mention any difficulties if the door jambs are plumb and square. Any suggestions to fix this one? I’ve thought of a hand grenade, but that might make the problem worse.

Thanks

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Replies

  1. Yogi | Jun 28, 2005 02:39am | #1

    dKnowing me, I'd probably put it back down in the basement and wait til I had more time and patience-  Next month I'd probably plane the part of the door that sticks-

  2. marlowe | Jun 28, 2005 02:47am | #2

    You don't say if the door is warped or twisted, or if the jamb is. If so, that may be what you're fighting. Hard to say exactly what the problem is, from your description. If the door or jamb is badly warped, you may have to replace. Anyway, here's my method for installing a normal pre-hung:

    Take the door off (just pull the hinge pins), and set the jamb in the opening. Nail up the hinge side good and solid, using shims as needed to get it perfectly plumb. Then put the door back on. Now use the door as a guide to shim and nail the top and other side, leaving an even reveal of about 1/8 inch all the way around, and making sure that the door hits the stop evenly on all three sides.

    There's usually a little fudging and finessing involved, but that's the gist of it.

    1. Piffin | Jun 28, 2005 02:53am | #3

      you don't cut the legs to length first? 

       

      Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

      1. FastEddie1 | Jun 28, 2005 02:56am | #4

        And he better hope that the floor at the hinge side is either level or slightly higher than the stricke side, cuz if it's low, he's going to hjave ahard time getting the strike side at the right height.

         I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.

    2. Piffin | Jun 28, 2005 02:59am | #5

      I'm wondering what method you are using to ensure that the jamb is square and plumb. I'm willing to bet you a drink of your choice ( well, of my choice, since I'm winning this bet) that you are using a level, and that the level is not reading true. The methjopd gumshoe suggested and variants of it will help you. In other words, use the door itself to square the jamb. Once that hinge leg is set plumb, the door will swing true, so even if it is not square for some outlandish reason, the door and the jamb will be in agreement with each other, which is what you want, right?When I buy a level ( or plumbstick as we call them here) I test it in the store first. good name brands can have half of them in the store reading false. Cheaper ones might only have one out of ten reading true. 

       

      Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

  3. Notchman | Jun 28, 2005 03:16am | #6

    I won't guarantee that this is your problem BUT....several years ago I was doing some odd-job repairs and small revisions in a house for a friend of DW's.

    The HO was choosing and buying things like tile and doors and windows at some discount variety place (think K-Mart pre Martha Stewart).

    I'll always remember a prehung, hollow core closet door that drove me nuts until I finally discovered that the stops, which were stapled and glued to the jams, were not parallel, neither with the jams, nor to each other.  I ended up making new jams....I was working cheap in those days, but my labor and mat'ls for the new jam was more than the original cost of the original unit.

    You get what you pay for....and then some....

    1. Piffin | Jun 28, 2005 03:23am | #7

      If the door is really the problem, there could be lots...I have seen a hinge butterflied in backwards. if the lower one, it could make the door raise up as it closed. or the mortises might be poor...it's really hard to imagine the door itself being out of square, but who knows... 

       

      Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

      1. Notchman | Jun 28, 2005 03:53am | #9

        Well, you're right of course.  But I've been to a few door factories, including Marvin and Anderson, and my impression is that ALL of those factories are much like Manufactured home factories.  The difference, in my view, is that the better door and window manufacturers apply better engineering to their product, better components, better quality control....

        But the assemblers are not particularly well paid or skilled and from high end plant to low end plant are indistinguishable.  The end result is that those low end plants (which may contract a lot of doors for HUD housing or Mf'd homes) who sell to the discount market, are rarely held accountable for producing a flawed product, because the end-user either doesn't know the difference, doesn't care or is just proud of the 60 bucks they "saved."

  4. doodabug | Jun 28, 2005 03:26am | #8

    Can you clarify? Is it hitting on the head jamb or the side jamb?

    1. cdbeardie | Jun 28, 2005 05:15am | #19

      Dear Doodabug,It is hitting the side jamb by about 1/32 or so.

      1. doodabug | Jun 29, 2005 12:50am | #26

        Do you have equal margin from top hinge to head? You can nail or screw top hinge tight to shim, then shim head over.

      2. doodabug | Jun 29, 2005 03:49am | #27

        Maybe I am doing it wrong. Don't you nail hinge side first and Shim those margins first, five shims sometimes, one at each hinge and then where needed? then equal margin on head, then latch side last, shimming as needed. Seems to me it wouldn't matter if door is exactly square then. Pippen says he hasn't noticed a door that's not square. I certainly haven't and maybe that is why. Maybe?

  5. quicksilver | Jun 28, 2005 04:03am | #10

    Check to see if the door is warped.

    Check to see if the door is hinge bound

    Check to see if the door was put into the mortising machine backward, meaning pin side of the hinge leaf on low side of the bevel

    check to see if door is stop bound

    To check your jamb for plumb hang a plumb bob down the center and check for consistant measurement from jamb to string both sides.

    To check to see if the set jamb is in plane run a string diagonally from bottom right to upper left across the top to upper right and back down to lower left. If the jamb is in plane the string will touch barely in th center. I saw someone argue the other day that the string should be reversed for a true check, technically this is true but I think with prudence one can gauge whether the string is out more than half a strings width without reversing.

    Check to see if the hinges are evenly mortised

    Check to see if hinge screws are stripped

    These are some things to check

    Your door is I think falling away at the top hinge. Since this door is nearly a throw away at this point try this: Take a couple three inch screws and from under the hinge leaf on the jamb side install two screws to pull the jamb in. If this doesn't work and it looks like the reveal is small at the lowest hinge you can tyr this also, spring the hinge. Be careful if your door is masonite this technique might pull the hinge screws out. If they come out replace them with longer screws. Place a nail set butt end in between the bottom hinge leaves close the door enough that the set is caught there. Apply pressure to the door in a closing manner until the hinges bends out slightly. Take your time go little by little. This will kick the doo off of the bottom hinge side raising it slightly on the top latch side.

    This might draw a little heat from purists but in this case the solve might apply.

    Gentlemen, please don't crucify me for this post

    1. Notchman | Jun 28, 2005 04:07am | #11

      I certainly wouldn't criticize you;  a cheap door can be use as a lab experiment....sometimes a 4 lb. hammer is a versatile tool....

      1. quicksilver | Jun 28, 2005 04:19am | #12

        Years ago I served time as a puncout man on the tracks in the DC metro area. I've yanked around many a hollow core piece of crap.

    2. piko | Jun 28, 2005 08:01am | #23

      Two thumbs up -way up.

      I often use a piece of card behind the hinge, tho. I like your idea, too.cheers

      ***I'm a contractor - but I'm trying to go straight!***

  6. des | Jun 28, 2005 04:28am | #13

    Check to see if the top of the door is square, I have never come across a new door that wasn't but you never know.

    Next check that when the door is open that the inside dimension of the head jamb is wider than the door. Measure both sides of the door because there should be a bevel on the strike side of the door, anyway, the jamb should be a little wider than the largest side of the door. This doesn't necessarily pertain directly to your problem but it is still worth checking. If it is not wider than the door the best way to fix that would be to plane the door slightly towards the top edge. when you are shimming the strike side of the jamb for nailing make sure that you keep the width wider than the door. The rule ofd  thumb is with the door closed the gab should be the same as a fat dime or a thick nickel depending on the type of finish on the door, paint calls for the thin nickel.

    Your top edge problem should be able to be corrected by lowering the hinge side of the jamb. Instead of using loose shims i like to make my hinge side of the rough opening plumb by nailing the appropriate thikness shims directly to the stud prior to placing the door in the opening.

    Using a 6' level or a shorter one with a good 6' to 6'6" straightedge place the level against the stud, if the stud is dead plumb, great just nail some 3/8" shims to center the door a little better. if not, pull out the level either top or bottom to get the bubble centered and nail a shim of the appropriate thickness to the stud. you then need to determin if there is too much opening left. If the opening left is much more than 1/2" then you can add two shims of the same thickness too the hinge side one on top of the first shim you put in and the other at the other end of the level. Now with either the one or two locations shimed you should have a plumb surface to start from. by the way thse top and bottom shims should be a few inches from the top and bottom of the jamb. Add a thrid shim half way use your level or straightedge to determin the thickness. Also if the stud is twisted try to use wood shingles as shims placing the bevel of the shingle in the correct orientation to conteract the twist of the stud.

    Sorry I'm so long winded.

    Now to address the problem of the top of the door. Place the door in the opening with the hinge side of the jamb firmly against the shims. you can tack a finish nail in to hold it there. just one into the top shim. have your partner make sure the bottom of the hinge jamb is against the lower shim. now place a wood shingle shim under the bottom of the strike jamb to raise it up until you have a uniform space above the top of the door or at least the same space at both ends. If the top jamb is bowed you can fix that with a shim and nail later. Now if there is carpeting or you don't care about the space under the jamb you could just nail up the door  first on the hinge side and then shim with opposing wood shingles to get the proper spacing on the strike side.

    If you want a neater look then there is one more step. Note how thick the space is under the strike jamb. Remove the door and cut that thickness from the bottom of the hinge jamb thereby lowering the hinge jamb to adjust the top of the door. remove the shim from the bottom of the stike jamb and replace the door. If you have been accurate it should be perfect.

     

    Good luck.

     

  7. hacknhope | Jun 28, 2005 04:44am | #14

    DW here once quibbled with DH over the $75 cdn charge from Sears to install a storm door.  Well, after serving the guy three meals and getting to know him real well we concluded the installation fee had been a bargain.  Nice guy with lots of experience.   But, the door frame on our 1929 home was neither plumb, nor rectangular, nor anything else (but none of the deficiencies were visible to the naked eye).  If the misalignment of the door had matched the misalignment of the frame  (by shear luck) you'd have been laughing all the way to the bank.   

  8. User avater
    basswood | Jun 28, 2005 04:46am | #15

    What is your approximate location (Menards has 120 locations)?

    1. SlimShaving | Jun 28, 2005 04:58am | #17

      What"Quicksilver"said. Plus check to see that the screws in the hinges are flush. When you shut the door they can "push" against each other.
      Just finished a pair of "special prehung Brazilian mahogany" doors that they decided the screws worked better if they were put in sideways.
      For those who fought. Freedom has a special meaning the protected never know.

      1. Notchman | Jun 28, 2005 04:59am | #18

        I like your tag line.

  9. bkhy | Jun 28, 2005 04:52am | #16

    That reminds me of a door from hell. I level the head, plumb bob the hinge side,set latch side parallel, door doesn't fit---repeat....finally check the door & find it is a trapezoid.

    Anyway in your case it seems the top corner hits the stop before the bottom corner--that would mean the wall/ frame is twisted or the door is warped/twisted. Most likely is the wall /frame if you are setting the frame in the same plane as the wall. One way to check this is to cross two strings diagonally on the face of the jamb--if they just touch at the intersection the jamb is ok, if they don't you can cheat several ways---toenail the wall plate into the correct position, move the stop to match the door,or cheat one corner of the jamb slightly out of the plane of the wall. Maybe a blend of each.

    Oops,just reread your post,you are hitting the head jamb not the stop--either the door or frame is not square



    Edited 6/27/2005 9:58 pm ET by BKHY

    1. cdbeardie | Jun 28, 2005 05:29am | #20

      Well, thank you to everybody who replied. You are truly all voices of truth in the wilderness.And, after measuring the door, it is a .....excuse my language.....fricking trapezoid. It is 1/8" bigger at the top edge than the bottom edge. Now, that isn't really the whole story, because there is a bigger gap at the top on the hinge side than the bottom at the hinge side.But, with all the suggestions to try, and knowing the door is just plain wrong, we should be able to get it to work. Plus, the humidity here in Minnesota is around 98%, so maybe when things get more normal (30 below and 0% humidity most of the year), the door will be fine.And, in spite of our DIY construction motto: "We're not very good, but we're slow.", we are good at getting things square, and plumb, and our levels are accurate. It is good to know that we just screwed up by assuming that the door was fine to begin with. As we say here in Minnesota, UFFDA! And thanks again!!!!! '

      1. FastEddie1 | Jun 28, 2005 05:58am | #22

        In spite of what the computer calls you, you have the ability to change your screen name to anyttrhing you choose.

         I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.

      2. piko | Jun 28, 2005 08:05am | #24

        I hate to be a purist, but I just hammer at a block of wood where the jamb sticks, and fill up the gap with wood putty.

        Now, I can't believe I said that, on a FHB site and all! Whatever next?

        cheers

        ***I'm a contractor - but I'm trying to go straight!***

        Edited 6/28/2005 1:11 am ET by piko

        1. calvin | Jun 28, 2005 02:21pm | #25

          Since you have a larger margin at the top hinge location, remove the top screw closest to the stop.  Replace with the same size, but 2-1/2" screw.  Run it in good and snug, it should pull the hinge and jamb tighter to the framing, enough to free up the door.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.

          Quittin' Time

  10. DanH | Jun 28, 2005 05:29am | #21

    First off, get a piece of fairly fine string and string it diagonally across the door, from top left to bottom right. (This only works easily if there are no projecting lite frames or whatever on the door.) If you do this from both pairs of corners and both sides of the door, you should never see a gap between the string and the center of the door. If you do see a gap, then the door is warped.

    Also, while you're doing diagonals, measure the diagonals of the door. The diagonal measurement should be the same no matter which direction you measure it (though you have to omit measuring any sweep or gasket, etc). If the diagonals are not equal, the door is not square.

    If those check out, keep in mind that no door opening is perfectly square (and some are not perfectly square more than others). In particular, if the floor is not level, it can confuse things badly. (Thankfully, this is an interior door where threshold fit is not an issue.)

    Also, no door opening is perfectly flat, and some are much, much more not perfectly flat than others.

    So what do you do? First set the door into the opening with it braced/strapped closed, so that it's fitting the frame reasonably tightly all around. Press the trim of the hinge side flat against the wall, then look at fit of the trim on the latcch side. Ideally, that side should want to lay flat against the wall too (though it may not if the plaster bulges along the top), but at least we'd like to see an even gap between trim and wall top to bottom. If you don't see that even gap then the opening is not flat.

    Also check the opening for plumb, with the level against the wall, not the rough framing, so you can tell if the opening tilts toward you or away from you (into or out of the room).

    Once you know how the opening is un-flat and un-plumb, figure out what the best compromise is. It's simplest if you make the hinge side flush against the wall and fudge on the other side, but that may not be the best compromise. When you compromise, try to favor the side of the opening that's the most plumb.

    Cut away any high spots in the wall that you've identified as needing to go.

    Ok, you know roughly what you want to fudge. Place a wedge (to give you adjustment range on the other side) under the bottom of the hinge side and tentatively mount it to the rough framing. (You may want to mount some plywood shims or whatever first, to get the overall opening down to about 1/2" clearance on one side when the door is tight against the other side, but be sure to leave room to make the door plumb side-to-side.)

    Plumb up the hinge side side-to-side and get the desired relationship between trim and wall to compensate for any lack of wall flatness, out of plumb, etc.

    Now try the door and make sure it's roughly opening and closing right, not dragging on the floor, etc. More securely mount the hinge side, with screws through one or two of the top hinge screw holes and into the rough frame.

    Double check that the hinge side is mounted the way you want, then shut the door into the frame. Slide a wedge under the bottom of the latch side frame until the top gap is even across. Fit wedges at several points along the latch-side frame until the gap between frame and door seems right. Work the trim towards the wall until it's as flush as it's going to be without warping the fame. Tentatively fasten the latch side.

    Double-check fit and finish fastening. A little caulk or wood glue on the wedges will help hold them in place. After they're fastened, trim them down so you can attach the trim on the other side. Of course, if the opening was badly warped you may need jamb extensions.

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