First time installing cedar shakes
Situation: New addition. 2×6 construction with OSB sheathing. House Wrapped and Board & Batten siding on all walls. Homeowner would like primed and painted cedar shakes on the gable wall.
Questions:
– Should the house wrap be replaced / covered with felt paper? I’ve read cedar oil is wicked out of the wood and destroys house wrap. This still an issue with primed and painted shakes?
– Should a gap of 1/8 – 1/4 be left at the freeze board and around window trim? If so, does this joint get caulked? Any special requirements on the type of caulk?
– Top course will need to be faced nailed. Will finishing nails suffice?
Any suggestions or tips will be appreciated. I’ve never installed or experienced the installation of shakes.
TIA
Attached is a quick SketchUp. The dark shaded area will get the shakes.
Replies
Hi Carlo,
- You're walking into deep water with the housewrap/felt paper discussion - especially when it comes to the tannins in cedar siding. There are lots of opinions both ways, and not a ton of evidence to back either one up (least not that I've seen). If you've got housewrap up, stick with that. Kudos for actually caring enough about the work to ask for more advice though.
- If the shingles will start right above the frieze board, then yes, you want to leave a small gap so that water doesn't wick up into the shingles. Teh top of the frieze should also be flashed, and the flashing needs to go up and behind the shingles (also behind teh housewrap/felt paper).
You're in NY, and it's getting cold, so the shingles are likely going to be shrunken down due to the low humidity (unless they are wet out of the box). I probably would leave a small gap, but certainly nothing more than a 1/4". It doesn't need to be caulked, but if you do caulk, go with any high-quality exterior sealant.
- If the top course fasteners can't be hidden under a soffit/fascia board, use ring-shank stainless steel siding nails. Keep them neat and straight so they don't look silly. Finish nails will rust and deteriorate from the weather/tannins in the cedar.
Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
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Thanks for the reply Justin. I have flashing for the horizontal freeze board, but what about the freeze board that runs along the gable, and the trim around the window? This is where I thought I would need caulk. The gap between the shakes and the pine trim. Seems to me, if I don't caulk that joint, that rain will run right down the trim and right into that joint. Granted there is house wrap behind that, but to me that is 2nd line of defense.
I agree with Andy said above - caulk is for painting, not weatherproofing.
Whether you caulk or not, water will get into that joint. It's how the water gets back out that's important.
You will want to install some flashing around the window, and under the trim. Think like a rain drop.
Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
"Everybody wants to know what I’m on...
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You're thinking wrong about the housewrap. All siding leaks. Period. The purpose of the siding is to look good, and to protect the housewrap from the sun, wind, and other forces that will degrade or damage it. The purpose of the housewrap (or tarpaper) and its attendant flashings is to protect the house from water. That's your real barrier.
It wasn't that way before insulation and vapor barriers. First, wood was old growth and less susceptible to rot (Cedar still is, but it's the framing we're concerned with). Second, old houses were so airy that they dried out when they got wet. Today, our wood sucks, and walls that get wet dry slowly. That's why I emphasize the importance of the building paper and flashings. It's what's behind the siding that keeps the house from becoming a mushroom farm.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
"Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Book of Merlin
The way I do the upper freize is as follows -
Let's say the frieze will be a 1x8 @ 7-1/4"
I rip scrap 5/8" or 3/4" plywood or advantec or whatever is scraping around, to 6" and nail that over the housewrap or tarpaper up snug to the soffit. Then run the siding to that with no caulk.
Then I do the freize. That keeps all your shingle nails top covered and nbo caulk needed. The freize laps an inch or so over the siding.Of course, if you are using shakes, then youi would need a 2x6 instead of 3/4" material to shim that freize out.Alternately, I do the shime and freize at the same time and slide clapboards in behind the freize later.
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Thats the ticket. I like the idea of shimming out the frieze to cover the shakes. And yes, these are shakes.Thanks for the suggestion.
OK then, shakes are too thick and irregular to even think about caulking at side edges. Do like Andy mentioned and run a strip of vycor, thirty pound tarpaper, or rooftopgausrd behind the window casing and wider by about 4" and draping down about 12" to where it can flip out on top of a course below the window
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Good call on applying the freize after final course I do the same. As for housewraps I have witnessed bleed thru and burn marks on Tyvek but not Typar so I have switched to Typar behind my cedar jobs. As for around doors or windows I install Vycor splines and butt the shingles tight and as for 1/4 spacing I think that is extreme especially for the pre stained cause they are usually kiln dried and dont seem to swell like the natural
Yes, even for unstained, we use about a 1/16" gap between cedar shingles. Fro hand split shakes, you have to go more like 1/4" but I would still run as tight as possible to window casing.
Siding sheds water fast enough that it does not soak it up to cause swelling problems unless the shingles are extremely dry when nailed up - which is never in my experience.
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Justin hit the nails on the head, for the most part. Use a bigger gap though - quarter inch minimum. Don't caulk. If you do caulk, it should be for aesthetics only. If you're relying on caulk to keep out water, you're screwed from the get go. Flashing keeps out water, caulk provides a paintable surface. Never caulk the bottom of siding, that just keeps water in. Prime all cut edges. Housewrap should be no problem with primed shingles.
For the best info, vist the Cedar Shake and Shingle Bureau at http://www.cedarbureau.com (maybe .org), and the Western Red Cedar Lumber Association's site at http://www.wrcla.org.
I've done presentations for both of these organizations, and nearly everything you could ever need to know is there.
Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
"Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Book of Merlin
Glad you swung by Andy. I'm curious what your take is on nailing off the wide shingles (aka "bed sheets"). Old information said every shingle, regardless of width, got just two nails. Now I've read that some are saying you can use four for wide shingles. One nail on each side of the shingle (an inch from the edge) and two close together towards the center. Thoughts?
I've never really understood the two-nail method int he first place. How do two nails on the outermost edges prevent splitting?...I'm still waiting for somebody to clear that up for me!Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
"Everybody wants to know what I’m on...
What I'm on? I’m on my bike, busting my ### 6 hours a day…
...What are you on?"
- Lance Armstrong
I've never really understood the two-nail method int he first place. How do two nails on the outermost edges prevent splitting?...
My understanding is that it's easier for the shake or shingle to move on two nails when it's swelling from saturation. More nails keeps it from moving as it wants to and in turn is more prone to split. http://grantlogan.net/
I was born in a crossfire hurricane..........shooby dooby do
Actually, it is the shrinking (like a check in fire wood as it dries) being held back, but yer right, two nails allows more movement.
Edit for spelling
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Edited 10/16/2007 5:19 pm ET by Sphere
What you describe, the four nail method, is code for shingles 8 in. and wider. The theory is that a shingle that width is going to crack. The double nails in the center ensure that when it does, the remaining halves each have two nails in them.
Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
"Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Book of Merlin
Edited 10/16/2007 5:54 pm ET by Andy_Engel
the four nail method, is code for shingles 8 in. and wider.
I've never laid one wider than 8". I always cull the "bedsheets" and rip my hip and ridge pieces from them. But then, I'm discussing roofs not sidewalls and Justin didn't say which he was talking about, I don't think.http://grantlogan.net/
I was born in a crossfire hurricane..........shooby dooby do
I'm talking walls. I leave the roofs to you.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
"Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Book of Merlin
I was talking about walls. There are a couple of brands of preprimed R&Rs in my area that include lots of really wide shingles in each box.Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
"Everybody wants to know what I’m on...
What I'm on? I’m on my bike, busting my ### 6 hours a day…
...What are you on?"
- Lance Armstrong
<< The double nails in the center ensure that when it does, the remaining halves each have two nails in them. >>
aaah, brilliant. Thanks Andy.Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
"Everybody wants to know what I’m on...
What I'm on? I’m on my bike, busting my ### 6 hours a day…
...What are you on?"
- Lance Armstrong
Andy, I gotta ask for a double check on that one being code. it is theory with two sides and I remember being taught to never use more than two nails per shingle, have always done that way, and have never seen my work have the puckering problems that this fouyr nail and slit method is supposed to be beating.
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What's the widest shingle you use? I just save the wide ones for the weird cuts like cheek walls or cut them in half if they're over 7" or 8".
I had to make a guy strip a square of shakes (real shakes) because he nailed the heck out of them. Said that's how they did it up north.
I also cull the wide ones separate to use fo rcuts at cheeks and valleys or hips, but once I have enough of them set aside, I use the shingles as they come. I've probably laid some 16" wide.
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"How do two nails on the outermost edges prevent splitting?."If shingle is going to split, it is most likely top be where a nail is, so adding more nails just increases the chances of having more splits. This thing is less of a concern for siding as this guy is doing anyways. When you get to roofing with them, things are more critical.
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First Q - do you really mean shakes???
About 70% of the time when somebody says shakes to me, they really mean cedar shingles, not understanding the difference.
Cedar shingles are all same thickness and saw cut.
Cedar shakes are hand split and much thicker at butt, and re-sawn to taper. They create a very irregular surface, unlike cedar shingles.
Shakes are rarely painted while shingles are often painted.
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Piffin,
you said shakes are never painted while shingles are often painted..
stupid question but why aren't cedar roofs ever painted?
wouldn't they last longer with coats of paint?
I told you it was stupid question, but for the life of me I can't think of a decent answer other than that's the way it's been done forever..
Fiorst - I did not say that shakes are never painted.unless I am mistaken, I said they are rarely painted.And
cedar shingle roofs ARE often painted! I have re-roofed quite a number of painted cedar shingle roofs that were fourty - fifty years old and did not show the wear that comes from water and wind eroding the wood.I think I have a picture of my wife's garden shed we did with pre stained two coats cedar shingles on the roof
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Is that a piece of Feeney aluminum railing on the ground?
Nice shed. Want to help me redo mine?
I am not sure what that piece of material was Mike
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I think I'm going to quit my job and just build sheds. So much fun.Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
"Everybody wants to know what I’m on...
What I'm on? I’m on my bike, busting my ### 6 hours a day…
...What are you on?"
- Lance Armstrong
Probably make more money building sheds too, eh?
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About caulking, when we do sidewall shingles, we blind caulk. You caulk each course above the reveal and then when the next course goes on, it gets caulked above the layout. This way, everything is caulked, but you don't see it.
It looks much cleaner.
That is the way I do with cedar shingles against vertical legs of casing and cornerbords etc.but I am still reading along to see if these are shakes or shingles. waste of time to do that with shakes and there are different methods altogether for using shakes than for shingles
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<< About caulking, when we do sidewall shingles, we blind caulk. >>
aren't you worried about trapping water behind the siding with this method Tim?
(nice article in this months JLC, by the way)Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
"Everybody wants to know what I’m on...
What I'm on? I’m on my bike, busting my ### 6 hours a day…
...What are you on?"
- Lance Armstrong
No I'm not because each layer is lapped basically.
Thanks for the comment about the article. It took a ton of editting. I think is was close to 4000 words to start and then whittled down :-).
How would it even be possible to trap water there when it is a vertical caulk joint behind the shingle and with a break at each course?
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Seems to me that tim was talking about a horiztonal line of caulk, not a vertical one. I see your thought Piffin - that makes sense.
But a horizontal line just above the reveal? I guess shingles layered 3 deep wouldn't be a problem in that case, but it still seems wonky. What am I missing?Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
"Everybody wants to know what I’m on...
What I'm on? I’m on my bike, busting my ### 6 hours a day…
...What are you on?"
- Lance Armstrong
He wasn't talking about a horizontal line of caulk.
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Nope, no horizontal line, just vertical.
Research at the Forest Products Lab suggests that caulking joints between siding and trim is about as likely to trap moisture against the trim or the end of the siding as to keep it out. Think of how caulk behaves, particularly when it's in contact with three surfaces to which it can adhere. Most caulk gaps and tears eventually, and water can pool within these gaps and against the wood. Caulk is no substitute for flashing, priming, and good workmanship. (Not that you didn't know that last bit.)Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein (or maybe Mark Twain)
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
"Everything not forbidden is compulsory." T.H. White, The Book of Merlin
It's generally safe with primed and painted cedar shakes, but adding felt paper as an extra layer of protection could be beneficial. Leaving a small gap at the freeze board and window trim is a good idea to allow for expansion, and using a high-quality, paintable exterior caulk will seal it nicely. For the top course, finishing nails should work, but make sure they are stainless steel to prevent rust.
When I was working on a similar project, I used a website to compare local companies for siding services and it made the process so much easier and affordable.