Installing Custom Rake Windows
Hi Guys.
A while ago, in this thread:
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=108007.1
…a number of you offered some great advice that helped me with some custom sealed units installed in a log truss (our house). I thought I’d post the installation process as a follow up (and as a thank you).
The project involved this:
1) A log truss that had nothing but two layers of poly in it for four years. I was surprised how well it lasted. The poly was still reasonably supple after four years of UV and weather.
2) I started by removing the wood stove and built a simple scaffold.
3) I laid a 2″ cedar sill. You can’t see it in the pic, but there’s a bevel and drip kerf on the exterior.
4) It’s pretty hard to fit glass to logs, so I scribed to some 3″ fir blocks to form a right-angle.
5) Marked some lines.
6) Some chisel work.
7) Block ready. I made these at each of the two lower corners and two at the ridge.
8) Unlike some of you guys, I’m a bit of chickensh!t when it comes to heights, so I wore a mountaineering harness when working at the ridge.
9) After the blocks where made, then came the outer stops. I used a plumb bob to be sure that the stops were all on the same plane. This is important.
10) The outer stops done for one side.
11) With the outer stops done, it was time to make templates for the sealed units. I thought about using luan, or stiff cardboard, but decided on strips of corrugated plastic sign material. It’s light, fairly rigid, and real easy to trim without power tools. I used an aluminum extrusion as a guide to cut the strips.
An added bonus, it’s a perfect 1/8″ thick, which means that scraps can be used as shims to get the right setback from the bearing surfaces. If you look carefully, you’ll see that I used my wire tacker (round staples) to hold strips in place. The round staples are real easy to pull with pliers when the template is done.
12) Of course, the downside of 2″ strips of plastic is the floppiness, so I needed to brace it. Most of us scoff at hot-melt glue guns (me included), but this is one case where it was the perfect tool. A dab of hot glue and 20 seconds of cool time was all it took to stiffen the template.
13) Here’s one of the templates ready for the manufacturer. The guys at the window factory thought this was a great way to make templates.
Speaking of factories, here’s an interesting story about the glass industry.
Because I did my own drawings, templates, and prepared the stops myself, I had no use for a glass shop; I wanted to deal directly with a manufacturer. Not that glass shops don’t deserve to make a living, of course there are times when their skills and knowledge are well worth the cost, but this wasn’t the case with me. A glass shop would simply be marking up the product, sometimes quite handsomely as you’ll see below, for nothing other than handing my templates to the factory.
I soon found that, at least in Canada, the glass industry is full of protectionism. Not a single manufacturer would deal directly with contractors, much less a homeowner. I got the same song and dance from every one of them, “You must deal with a retail glass shop”. I was not a happy camper.
Then as a last resort I called the company that made the regular windows for our house. Turns out they can make custom sealed units and regularly deal with contractors and homeowners. Now we’re a happy camper.
Check out the range of quotes. These are for EXACTLY the same units: 5 mil glass, Low-E on one side, double glazed with 1/2″ spacing. Prices are for all four units, based on me picking them up with my truck. Proper CAD drawings with all dimensions and angles were provided to each bidder .
1) Nearby glass shop in an upscale neighborhood: $5900
2) Typical glass shop in a nearby city: $4200
3) Local glass shop in our town: $2900
4) National glass chain based in a nearby city: $2200
5) The manufacturer that made our regular windows: $1200
Amazing huh? And by the way, the last quote included argon filling, something the others didn’t even ask me about, and I’m sure there would have been an upcharge. Sweet; now I’m a REALLY happy camper. Twelve hundred bucks is a great deal, IMO, certainly compared with $5900.
14) I built a simple A-Frame to transport the finished units.
15) The units made the five hour trip without incident. Not exactly a pretty sight, but it worked well.
16) It’s kind of hard to see here, but the first installation step was to seal the outer stop from exterior air intrusion. I’ll seal the outside joint too at a later time.
Edited 9/1/2009 12:10 am by Scott
Edited 10/9/2009 12:46 am by Scott
Replies
Part 2:
17) Some people use rubber or foam bumpers to lay the sealed units on. I couldn't find these so I opted for peal-and-stick felt, cut to the same depth as the units.
View Image
18) Humping those puppies up the ladder was no fun at all, even with glass cups. The larger ones weighed approx. 150 lbs. Nothing got dropped, no one got hurt; that's good enough for me.
View Image
19) Once up, placing was easy. They fit perfectly. I put a bead of silicone around the outer stop, we set the unit in place, and my helper kept some pressure on while I tacked a temporary inner stop in place.
View Image
20) Done. They need a good cleaning, and I'll make some proper interior stops to trim them with (now I've got an excuse to buy that Veritas low angle block plane I've been dreaming of), but the job's pretty much done. One more step towards completing the 20 year project.....
View Image
Thanks to all for the help.
Scott.
Edited 8/18/2009 12:44 pm by Scott
Really nice work. Thank you for sharing.Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
Scott,
Beautiful work - and thanks for the detailed description.Can I ask who the glass supplier ultimately was ? And are they national or local ? Can tell just at first glance, you're not in Ontario ;-)GavinGavin Pitchford
"Sail fast - live slow" (build even slower)
Not in Ontario, sorry. http://www.westeckwindows.com/But you should be able to find a similar company in your area. Making custom sealed units is not difficult.There's no point in talking to the monstrous multi-nationals or national companies. Westeck is a single plant operation with a few showrooms in various cities.If you end up phoning around for quotes on units like this, brace yourself for all sorts of arrogant snobbery on the part of the manufacturers who follow the protectionist docrtine. It was quite frustrating...it's like your money ain't worth the paper it's printed on.Good luck,Scott.
Edited 8/21/2009 12:45 am by Scott
Whenever we had odd shaped windows, and we ordered them without templates, at least one and usually more of the windows were off - giving measurements and angles and scale drawings just didn't work.
Yeah, I can see how difficult that would be. Although I made the drawings as accurate as I could, they were really just for quoting purposes. There's no way I would trust them for building with, hence the templates.Scott.
"decided on strips of corrugated plastic sign material."
I've had that same thought on several occasions, but I've never seen it in any store. Where'd you get it and what sizes does it come in?
BTW, nice job. My experience with windows & pricing is similar to yours. If you don't need the middle man, you can usually save around 50%. You obviously did way better'n that!
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Everything fits, until you put glue on it.
It's amazing to see the price differences between suppliers. Anyways, the windows look great, especially with that view in the background.
>>>Where'd you get it and what sizes does it come in?I think it was HD, in the same area that luan panelling is. It was dirt cheap. The stuff has sat here in storage for a few years though, so who knows if they still have it. I suspect any sign shop could supply it too.It was a 4 x 8 sheet which was more than enough for this project.Scott.
Thanks for the story Scott. Real good work and I just LOVE that view you have. Good call on the corrugated plastic. When I used to install countertops, we used to buy 4x8 sheets of corrugated cardboard that we would then rip down on the table saw to 3" strips for use as templates; also using a glue gun to hold together. The upside to using corrugated templates was, like you said you can cut it with a razor knife but also was that we could template out any desired length then fold the pattern up. Take care.DC
awesome view! nice job too.
Hmmm. And I thought I had the HD shelves memorized! ;-)
I'll give another look.Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
>>> And I thought I had the HD shelves memorizedNow that is a sad commentary if I ever heard one. ;)...but it sadly applies to me too.....Scott.
Well done!The view looks passable as well.
Thanks.Yes, that would be Mt. Currie, named after John Currie, a Scottish farmer who settled this valley many years ago. It's a grand mountain, and I've set a goal to climb to the top before I'm........ who knows.....Here's hoping.Scott.
By the way....Here's another factoid that I learned about the glass industry. Most glass shops don't like to make their own templates for custom sealed units. They consider that to be "carpentry" work. (Ewwwwwwww...... untouchable... perish the thought...)However, it doesn't stop them from marking up the product for the "carpentry" work.I suggest that construction contractors make a point of dealing directly with glass manufacturers. Certainly in cases where glass shop expertise is not needed.Scott.
Edited 8/20/2009 11:45 pm by Scott
Shweeeet!nice jobNo Tag
Looking good.Funny that I did one almost exactly the same in a cypress log home in NC. Right to upside down peace sign. I got pics somewhere. the HO had the glass guys do the template tho', he didn't wanna be held liable for his or my mistakes.20 year project huh? You got 20 more at least, its a log home after all.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
View Image
>>>20 year project huh? You got 20 more at least, its a log home after all.Actually it's mostly stick frame with some log post & beam work. But it's all being done at "Scott Speed", hence the 20 year plan. I have a very patient wife......Scott.
I found it at my drywall store, they sell it as floor and wall protection. It was pricey ($13/sheet), but it's nice to have, and the sheets can be used over and over again. Correx was the brand name of the stuff I got. Another trade name is Coroplast.Z
I get my drywall at either HD or the yard, depending on what else I'm picking up at the time. I've never seen it at either place, but I'm gonna ask next time I'm in.
Would be a nice thing to have a sheet or two on hand.Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PAEverything fits, until you put glue on it.
Excellent photo-documentary!!!
Thank you for taking the time to share with us.
The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.