Installing door casings – top or sides?
MG911
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
Hey all…just out of curiosity…when installing door casing, how many of you measure and cut the top casing first, tack in place, and then measure up the side casings to meet the top piece? As opposed to tacking up the sides first and then fitting in the top piece. Is one method consistently more accurate than the other?
I’m fighting with these darn things…but if some of you read my string in the general discussions, you’re going to blame it on my saw, aren’t you! Go easy on me…
Replies
IMHO, top-side-side works, side-top-side works, side-side-top doesn't work, but building them on the floor works best.
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
I'm with the woodright. Attach the head casing to the sides on the floor. (end nail) then place it in the opening. Shim the top to fit level then make the sides plumb. Nail with finishing nails then hang the door. Then of course the stops.
I have some basement doors I installed that were prehung but with MDF casings. Yuck. It was like nailing up rubber. Your shimming needs be dead on for each point with that stuff. It wanders too easily for my taste.
Nail head first.Cut left and right miters, turn upside down and mark top of head. With the miter upside down you are marking square cut for floor. Check fit, glue miters and only nail the top of the side casings in a couple places. When glue dries you can work the casing to the margin you want. This keeps the miter from opening as you nail.While glue is drying you can move to another opening and come back in about 45 minutes.
Mike
I usually start with the hinge side of the case. that gives me the reveal. if there is one. Then I can mark that leg to cut the mitre. the the head then the latch side.
But if your talking about clear coated or stained case and your mitresneed to be absolutly positively perfect then i like the glue and floor ideas. I mean Perfect. you can get pretty darn, un-noticably close the other way too. If you hung your door and its still plumb and square.It always helps to have bluegrass playing in the back ground. A little Doc Watson or Del and the Boys
Every opening is different, how do you fit the casing on the floor?
I prefer to set the door plumb and level.....
make's for 45's that are pretty durn close to perfect.
Or....order everything split jambed.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
Nice theory, I case one side before it goes up, most hate that plan.
I have a slick lil low angle plane for fitting miters, but that is old school.
6 ways to skin a cat.
in actuality.....I usually do the legs first then fit the head.
usually I'm the one that set the door......so I got no one to blame for an extra trip to the chop saw.
I've also done lotsa new trim in older homes....trimming doors that have settled over the last hundred yrs or so......grew up trimming those.....so getting the head miters to fit near perfecto hasn't been a big problem for a long while.
I have done the old "trim on the floor" deal...but triming standing up ain't such a big deal so I usually just hang and trim without a second thought.
One company I sub for uses 99% split jambs. I think they're ok for paint grade...but I can get a better finish grade fit and finish doing it myself.
I'm with U on this one.....do what ever works for ya. ...the order of assemble shouldn't make any difference at all....still just 3 sticks of wood with a coupla pointy edges that go together....
sometimes this trim stuff gets a bit over complicated.
there is one way to make it all go faster.....just cut it perfect the first time.....
I do use my little combo square to make my reveal coupla times down the legs and across the top.....usta drive my old boss nuts...something about wasting time?
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
I have one of those low angle planes. stanley 12 and 1/2 . Why use anything else.
I've been using the kreg jig to pre-assemble (on saw horses, not the floor--this back is getting too cranky). It works great. Before I used to do the sides then fit the head. Kreg gets rid of the need for biscuits or cross-pinning corners. Many many old house doors later, I've given up assuming I'll get the angles right on the first cut. On paint grade I trim screw casings to the wall and jambs. I pity the fool that comes after me thinking they are going to just be able to pop that casing off to make a little repair...
Steve
hey Steve , Do you use those Small square drive trim head screw?
If so have you evr used the to build up mdf? How do they work?
Where there's A wheel there's a way, got any wheels?
Hey Muleskinner,
Yes those are the screws. They use a #1 square drive. I've not tried then on MDF though. I would think they might want to mushroom.
Steve
Pretty interesting seeing how many different ways to skin a cat... I don't think there are too many guys who trim exactly the same way as their colleagues.
One of the old cranky fellas (no offense to any old cranky fellas out there) I used to work for used to threaten to kill me if he saw me cut the legs first, then the head. He finally accepted this mode after a couple doors that looked great and went quick. Needless to say, I couldn't get him to try it that way. The point is that if you find someway to do it that works for you, then do it. Like the old fella said after a while, "I don't give a s--- how you do it, just make 'em perfect."
BTW, nice name MuleSkinner....totally agree with you that work is better with some Bluegrass i.e. Dr. Ralph Stanley, or some Skaggs
might as well end the denial. i must be a cranky old fella too. head first, then jambs. seems so obvious. would you just listen!
brian ;-)
Laying it out on the floor gives you the oppotunity to check your joints, before you nail it up. not really practical, in go-like-hell, new constructuion. But in a case with a wide moulding with a intricate profile. It might be more important to get that cut perfect. No matter what, You'd be happier with a plumb jamb and a level header.
Like i said you can get it pretty darn close the other way. After all that last 45' you cut on your header has to be right or your going to be too short. But,Thats why Leg-head-Leg is good, because you are always making your next cut to fit the previous. In the event, it happens to be off slightly , you may be able to correct it, before it Becomes kindling. It really depends on the job, and what your trying to achieve.
And not to mention that a major function of the reveal is to compensate for a slightly out jamb. You can get away with a lot. A reveal can ease the transition. and no one will ever see the difference. Also casing clam, ranch, you basic case moulding is thin, enough that you can actually bend it slightly. After you have the top pinned. You can tweek it, to maintain the reveal on an out of plumb edge
Miters always dry out on the inside edge. I jump thru a lot of hoops to get them to stay good, and each house is different.
Cutting a 45 and fitting on the floor is something I would never do, but I don't do a lot of things people here do.
You musta been watchen me work. Thats my routeen to the letter.
Yeah or maybe you were watching me work. Next time you write it all out and i'll agree with you.Where there's A wheel there's a way, got any wheels?
I cut and fit all 3 at the same time. (Sort of)
I put shims under the ends of the vertical pieces to givr me the reveal I want, depending on the flooring guy's preference. They'll ALMOST stand up on their own. Then I set the top piece in and make sure everything looks kosher.
When things look good I hold the left side piece in place with my left hand, and set the other 2 on the floor. Grab the hammer and tack the left piece before it moves.
Then I do the test fit routine again with the top and right pieces. If everything looks good, I hold the top piece with my left hand while I lay the right had piece down. Then I nail the top piece.
Then I install the right piece and finish nailing all around.
I kinda like the idea of gluing them, as MIKEK4244 suggested. I may try that next time........
Rigid flexibility is the key to indecision.
I don't use my tape much at all . Except to rough measure the length of the header. I find it interesting how insignificant a tape measure is. Then I wonder where the hell I put it.
I eyeball my first leg piece and mark it on the leg itself. The mark is the same amount above the head jamb, as the reveal on the side jamb. again just an eyeball. "If your not building a piano" Thats my first cut. As long as your saw is true. You can go around the same way. I can anyway. And I'm Fussy.
Here's my way; I mark reveal along head jamb and top 6" or so of sides with dividers, cut sides to length by standing trim on floor and aligning with marks on head jamb ( no tape needed),using torpedo level nail right side trim (could be left but right just works better for me) along reveal lines at top 6" for now, the level assures you are plumb at the top where it matters, attach left side the same way
Now take head stock cut about an inch long and mitre one end, hold upside down over side pieces with long point of mitre of head piece just touching long point of mitre on side piece, mark opposite end of top piece where it rests on opposite side piece, this the length of your head piece, cut, glue both mitres, nail head piece completely, nail off sides adjusting the reveal by eye as you work your way down the door. This sounds complicated but it's really very simple if you see it done.
This is done after the door is installed of course. Some day I'm going to try trimming the door on the floor like some of these other guys do.
I do the head first, then the legs.
My top door and trim guy does left leg, head, then right leg.
The only work I've ever seen better than his is when it is table assembled with biscuits and Collins clamps first. - but his is as close to perfect as most people will ever know. I can't do it that way so it's a personal technique thing.
Excellence is its own reward!
I'm a leg man. Pin them starting from the bottoms so I can work wavy stuff, and stop about 6" from the head. Cut the head a tad long and squeeze it in. Biscuit if stain grade. Collins clamps(thank you Big Cal), if it needs 'em. EliphIno!
Leg man huh???
Can we call Collins clamps Ear-rings then?
.
Excellence is its own reward!
Yeah, I can see it now, Carpenter Chic Jewelry and Piercing Parlor<G> EliphIno!
I like my casing like I like my woman-on top first
Once again, this forum is such a great resource. Thanks for all the tips - I like the idea of tacking up the top, cutting the leg mitre's, turning them upside down and then marking for the square cuts. I'm going to give this a shot.
I think the possible root of all my problems though is my saw. Needs to be properly aligned after I mucked around with it. Ya ya Piffin, I can just here you now ;)
Mike.
a suggestion , nail that head piece, counter sink those nails, send it home, I wouldn't tack it, for it just might give you the impression, that you may want to mess with it. Enjoy it , for the next piece of wood, you handle, is going to be alot heavier than the door casings. Jim J
Thanks for the tips....got them all done but if you read any of my strings in the other section, I think my saw is causing me some of the headaches. Maybe I'm being hard on myself but do any of you pros need any gaps filled after trim work?
The only reason I tacked up the head pieces originally was that it needed to be taken down to paint after cuts were made.
I have some bad gaps (1/16" - 3/16") with my base boards and at some of the mitres on my door casings. I'm using stock that doesn't have any profile so coping on the base boards wasn't an option.
What do you pros use to hide any of the discrepancies? Latex caulking? One other thing, all my casings/base are painted black - I've yet to find a black latex caulk. (Why black? Ask my wife. Our decor is fairly contemporary so it looks really sharp - I pray she never sees this after the grief I gave her).
a suggestion, cut a 24" piece of stock at a 45 degree with mitre saw, swing to opposite 45, cut another 24" piece, set both pieces in/along your framing square. Two things come to my mind, you either need glasses- (probaly not), or tie a dollar bill to your chop saw and throw it away. OK, now I'am smiling, I hope you are too. I prefer a caulk by the name of Big Stretch, caulk the joints you like, and tear out the trim/joints you don't like, for there is a good chance, that those few bad joints will bother you. But then again, maybe they won't. The key thing for me is to try and enjoy, what my efforts bring me, though it don't always turn out that away. Jim J
Lol...great post. I have been enjoying my renos so far but this last round with the mitre saw drove me nuts. I just tried exactly what you said with some 1X3 and found that it was far from square at the mitre joints. The innacuracy really comes through with the 45's but cutting at 90 degrees doesn't show any error.
I tried putting small shims against the fence and between the stock to adjust the cut but didn't have much luck. Lack of experience would sum it up. Crazy as it sounds..I'd give up a day off to go spend a day with an experienced finish carpenter - knowing how to fudge things and deal with odd ball situations is the big difference between us rookies and some of you pros.
"For Sale.....Craftsman 10" mitre saw....cheap!"
Glue holds a miter together, a miter is a joint, it turns two sepatate pieces into a single unit. If there are large gaps, you don't have a miter, what you have are two boards nailed to a wall.
I don't know what to tell you other than re-cut. Black is absolutely the hardest color to finish to. Unless the job is fitted and finished to perfection, you will see every gap, and every nail hole, you will even see the sandpaper scratches.
You don't need a finish carpenters' advice, you need an autobody mechanic. Turtleneck
most people think you just cut a few 45's and slap them together and if they don't fit the painters will take care of it ,believe me I loose bids to these kind of trim carpenters all the time. many things can cause a joint to open up besides not being cut right to begin with.if the trim tilts in or out from the jamb this will cause either the heel or toe to open up.therefore you either need to compensate this with your miter cut or shim or back plane-plow the trim to get it into the proper plane with the door opening this becomes much more critical when doing craftsman style or flat casings.i would suggest since yours are already done to get some bondo and fill the gaps get a new saw and put a good blade on it while your at it to. good luck
Thanks DJ, yes you're right - the work is done and unfortunately I found the problem with my saw after the work was done. Since my carpentry skills are a little green I've been working on the gap filling techniques! ;) I have another kitchen to trim next week and I've had some great tips so far - should go much smoother.
Mike
heres my two cents to add to this topic. if I hung the door and know that its plumb, level and square, which 99.9999% of the time it will be if I did it. then I
1. measure the inside dimension of the door jamb (important to get very accurate dimension)
2. add 1/2 inch to that dimension (assuming 1/4 inch reveals) or add 3/8 if using 3/16 inch reveals.
3. then multiply the width of the casing by 2, and add to the above.
this way you can always measure from the long point of the miter
for example:
finished opening is ...................................................36"
add 1/4"+ 1/4" for reveals on the side jambs = 1/2"
add 2-1/2" + 2-1/2" for width of casing x 2 =...............5"
measure 41-1/2" from long point to long point . no having to measure to inside corners of the miter . I'm a top first then l turn it upside down on a piece of flooring if possible to mark the square cut at bottom.
Been Doing some work with the finish crew . MDF casing and Base Molding.
All the doors are hung, by someone on the crew maybe you maybe not. all the Heads and legs come pre cut for your door size. Mitres already on.
Hold up the head and split the difference to get your reveal ( for that particular door) . It may not be the same on the next door, of the same size.
Start with a leg and go around the top. The only real cutting comes from subfloor height changes. badda bing
Hopefully, the guy who hung the door was conscientious or you'll be working on your wet noodle thesis. Thank god for painters.
Where there's A wheel there's a way, got any wheels?
Doors, doors, doors. Where do I start?
Interior swinging doors with solid jambs can be installed with or without trim on one side. But I assume from your question that yout door is already hung and applied to the opening it belongs too.
Trim that requires 45 degree cuts should in my opinion be applied from left to right or right to left. Side-top side. Although many of my professional collegues do it many different ways.
Doors jambs very rarely from the factory fit the opening perfectly (jamb width) nore does the finished wall rarely fit the prescribed jamb for the said opening.
45 degree cuts at the corners will then most likely need to be individually refined to meet the walls correctly and the fellow peices of trim correctly too. Trim installation can be an art even for simple colonial 2 1/2" trim.
I start at the left because I like too..... you can start from the right if you prefer. By starting with a side and moving around the casing you are only ever having to deal with one piece of wood meeting another peice of wood at a single joint.
You can work your way around refining each joint as you go, knowing that the joint you left is soild and tight. Barring the wood was acclimated to the building properly, glued properly, and attached properly. You should have no problems with the joinery.
If joints don't fit tight even after adjusting your saw, try end grain planing the 45. This is a great way to refine your joints so you have exquisite joints that will stay tight for years.
Doors should not only be hung plumb and square but even more noticable and annoying is when a door has uneven reveals, does not seat against the jamb along its whole length properly when closed, when a door is shimmed improperly, swings shut on its own, and does not latch proerly because of any of the above problems or poor hardware installation. Many of these are all more important than a door that is plumb and level. Although any door hung in a plumb wall should be plumbed in the opening and end up with a level header.
Thanks for the detailed information...nice to get it from experienced folk.
Mike
One thing no one mentioned is to make sure the door fits before installing trim. Sometimes the jamb has been banged about for some time before the trim comes along. The painters often have the door in another room. Test fit the door and see if the jamb needs adjusting before you start trimming. It take a little extra time. I install the head piece first. We may be slow, But we're expensive.