installing furnace &air con myself
Hello
My Whole house furnace and air conditioner needs replacing. I was thinking that I might like to try it myself and hire out for the freon filling.
I already do all of my own construction, plumbing, electrical and masonary around the house
I have good basic skill sets and I know how to use a multi meter.
Any bizzare pit falls associated with this kind of work?
How much money could one save doing it this way
Any advice would be apprecisated
Thanks
Malcolm
Replies
HVAC is a science unto itself, with some steep math involved. There are computer programs that can help you out with this though.
A few questions to get you started:
Are you happy with the capabilities of the system you had?
Any problems with any rooms being too hot or cold?
Are your gas or electric bills too high in the winter or summer?
Have you changed any structural elements of your house - like added rooms, removed walls, added or removed doors, etc?
Have you gone from carpet to tile/wood floor, or back?
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
If it's a simple direct swap it shouldn't be too difficult. But if you have to do much ductwork (as would be the case if you're upgrading to a zoned system, eg) then you'll avoid blistering the paint by hiring it done.
Some things to be aware of:
-- Local codes may not allow you to do this, or at least not allow you to make the gas hookup.
-- The new furnace is probably smaller than your existing one, especially if you get a high efficiency unit.
-- Most furnace vendors will not sell to private parties.
-- Your furnace warranty will likely be worthless if you install it yourself.
-- Generally the A coil does not come in an enclosure -- you'll need to craft one. (Don't try to recycle the old A coil -- get the one that matches your new condenser unit.)
Thank you for your reply. You where very helpfull
Malcolm
I,m licence in HVAC but since I do not have a business licence in HVAC they will not sell to me.
-- Generally the A coil does not come in an enclosure -- you'll need to craft one. (Don't try to recycle the old A coil -- get the one that matches your new condenser unit.)
You can now get cased A coils sized to fit most gas furnaces with the new furnace. The coil is sized for the correct tonage of cooling and to fit a particular model AHU. It is enclosed in in a three piece plenum that mounts above or below the AHU, depending wheather it si up or down draft. Freon lines are stubed out and the condensate drain pan has femal fittings ready for the line hook up.
Make installation a whole lot easier than trying to build a plenum around the coil. a short duct run with a flex collar makes transitioning to existing duct work much easier, and serves to isolate the AHU noise (vibration) from the old duct work.
Dave
Depending on where you are you may not be able to buy the unit without a license.
Thank you for your reply
Is selling only to a rep. a city state or federal requirment?
Malcolm
I'll go against the tide... hell yeah you can do it... no it's not rocket science... chances are you will take more time and do a better job than if you hired someone...
if you aren't great with sheetmetal then draw up what you need and any small sheetmetal shop will bend up what you need...
if your local distributor won't sell to you... buy off ebay or just go in act like you know what you are doing, know exactly what you want and tell em you want to pay cash it's a side job... about half will sell to you... or pick any hvac name out of the phone book and tell them it's a cash ticket... maybe a little dishonest but then i don't think any trade should be "closed"if ur sell'n and i want to buy... i think i should be able to buy... jmho
guys save your slam'n... just what i believe
anyway read up on what ur do'n or plan'n and i think with basic skills you'll be fine
p
Thank you very much for your reply
You where very helpfull
Thanks again
Malcolm
57robbie
This could be doable depending on your skill and attention to the small details.. I got my gas company to do an audit for me (free) they recommended a unit size and even offered to sell it to me. They fully expected to install it and were shocked that I would do it myself. I checked out the cost of various units from suppliers and surprisingly the one they recommended was also one of the least expensive ones.. (with a very high rating).
Each supplier seemed to have a differant policy.. some said no to anyone not in the trade, some said sure and a few were willing to sell only after they found out I'd already lined up a unit with the gas company.
The snotty clerk at the warehouse where I picked it up was more than offset by the warehouse guy.. He told me I could save another $250.00 if I took one of the dented ones that had been returned.. Mine his an almost invisbable dent in the service door that has never affected it's operation.. he looked thru that model "til he found the one with the least damage. He assured me installation would be easy, warned me to use pipe dope on all connections..
Installation was both easier and harder than I expected..
I had ruined the first section of ductwork getting the old one out but found a friendly HVAC guy to repair it for me at an absolute nominal charge, He was there to check it out before I fired it up..
Repairing the ductwork and checking out the furnace installation, gas connections and everything cost me $50.00 the Gas company wanted $1100.00 do install it.. the cheapest HVAC company was $550.00 and a moonlighting empoyee, cost me $50.00
I'm glad I own a two wheeler, otherwise getting that furnace in and the old one out would have been impossible. too heavy and too bulky for me to lift by myself..
My furnace is in the tuck under garage so I didn't need to get in up or down stairs.. Could not have done that myself. Connection and disconnecting the gas was no problem, same with the wiring.. (black, white, ground & thermostat)
My floor wasn't that far out of level I was able to set it level with the adjusters provided but I've seen plenty of shims where the floor was bad (sometimes in new homes)
The ductwork connection that I thought was hopeless was so easily fixed I was shocked. (He also showed me how easy it would have been to pull it apart if I'd known the trick)
these numbers are about 7 years old so your prices may vary, close cover before striking, objects in the mirror etc.
Edited 7/7/2006 6:46 pm ET by frenchy
thank you for your reply
I think I can handle the duct work (I'm an old draftsman, I really like laying out ductwork patterns).
The fact that companys wont sell to me is a bit of a mystery Why? Is this city state or federal thats doing it.
I know that doing it myself will probably void the warrenty but I accept that.
The only thing that really concerns me is the silver soilder joint and the vacuum purge. I will probably farm that out.
Other than that I think this is something I can do.
Thank you for the help.
Malcolm
It's mainly manufacturer/distributor policy to only sell to licensed (or otherwise "qualified") installers. Probably varies by locality, based on local licensing requirements, etc. A few brands (I believe that Goodman is one) have a more open policy, I've been told.To some degree this is likely in violation of restraint-of-trade laws, but good luck fighting it. If things are tight in your area, you might be able to work a deal with an installer to do most of the work (or just have something fall off the back of a truck).
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
It seems like a wholesale-resale type thing to me. Suppliers I use, will only work with business. No Home Owners, or DIY's.
Home Depot is a way around this. My brother purchased his boiler from HD to avoid the hassle. Got it cheaper than plumbing supplier.
Actually I use HD for oil tanks, as they are 1/2 the price of the plumbing supplier. And that is at cost.....
Go for it, even the AC part.
A few years ago, got on line and got an EPA license for buying F-22 for $25 and taking a multiple choice test (fairly easy for 609). That type does NOT allow you to do 'work for hire', but perfectly good for DIY.
For assembly of the AC or HP, a pitfall is the brazing - you will need to do a Nitrogen or CO2 low pressure fill to avoid generating oxides inside the copper. You can read up on that from various sources, one of the better (in most libraries) is an ARI publication from Prentiss Hall , " Refrigeration and air conditioning".
You probably will be better off with a Heat pump over a furnace depending on your location (fill in profile)
There are numerous ducting calculators free on the internet, you just need to look for one you are comfortable with.
Grainger will sell you AC equipment, (and Freon with an EPA license) and numerous web based sites will also sell equipment to anyone. I've even bought split system components off ebay.
Once you learn a little, you can pass yourself off on hvac-talk as a pro if you dont ask any really dumb questions (ie-just read) , then search for details on topics like superheat and installing txv vs. standard orifices, etc. If you are already familiar with the terminology, you are halfway there.
As for price differential, did a 3T Heatpump/AC install at Mom's house for less than 20% of the lowest bid she got for the work, (1.1K vs 6K) although I did 'cheat' and use flex ducts vs. sheet metal.
Have fun.
Brazing is not always required. A soldered joint made with silver bearing solder (like Harris StaBrite #8) works just fine without the brazing drawbacks.
REMEMBER unless you are an HVAC PRO thats PRO
you will kill yourself and burn the whole town by doing it yourself
I doubt it. You could have an expensive mess on your hands, but it would be hard to burn the house down unless you screw up the gas piping.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
just kidding. the hvac-talk people think you can not change a fan blade, contactor, motor or circuit breaker 'less you are "AN HVAC Pro"
"the hvac-talk people ..." very, very few of which ARE pro's. They should rename the forum, HVAC union Tech Talk.
Agree
Some very attractive tax rebates available now for both ac and heating. Go with high end performance equip and you can get ? 4 or 500$ back gotta go check. Varriable speed frunace/ac and 95%+ efficent.
Here's a little not I got on a order I made.
The tax credit actually will be $500.00 for both or just the $300.00 on the ac. The tax credit goes until 2008
What state are you doing this in?
These guys even help with an install video for a DIY'er
http://www.alpinehomeair.com/?linkfrom=galpinehomeairproduct&gclid=CMaOpfSviIYCFRQoJAod-C_bgg
(edit) - I have not used them, nor am I planning to. I am hiring a local guy for my new install job. it is just something in this project that I don't want to tackle.
Adventures in Home Building
An online journal covering the preparation and construction of our new home.
Edited 7/10/2006 8:01 pm by jhausch
http://www.usamfg.net/
if no one will sell to you these guys will... the prices shown on the site are usually more than what you'd pay they always have specials that are 20-50% lower
good luck
p
Those sites are interesting. I didnt know HVAC equiptment had such a high markup locally. Those prices are about a half the supply house prices.
well the local guy (young guy) that has the/or a local johnstone supply lives in the best area of town... might not be much other places but 1.5 mil houses are still kinda rare here
p
I've been reading the thread with interest, since I am about to DIY AC. Ferguson is the local plumbing house that will sell me just about anything, so I went to their HVAC counterpart, Lyon, Conklin & Co, today.
The counter guy sounded a bit scripted when he asked if I was a licensed Trane installer etc. He must get guys like us a lot.
Anyway, I am ordering a packaged unit (I'll only need to run electricity and ducts) from desco energy. I found them on ebay, and they are in York, PA, not too far a drive for me. They run manual J's, and duct sizing for you, based on your house plans, and sell complete kits, should you need that.
I've bought both packaged and split systems from Desco and have been happy with them.
I do buy accessories though (tubing, filters, txv) elsewhere on the net or locally. Dont forget to check the closeout section of the Grainger web site, got some great deals on txv and a scroll compressor there, and got a great deal on a 3T Rheem packaged unit a few years ago when grainger changed suppliers for their Dayton brand (think they are York units now) .
As a home inspector I see a lot of amateur installs, (and a fair number of amateurish installs by "professionals.")
I recommend using a professional who is training in combustion efficiency and carbon monoxide analysis.
Very few furnaces which I test (even new installations) are anywhere near tuned for peak efficiency, and a few are off the charts for CO (even with a n ice "blue flame.")
I would like to thank you for your advice. If I was a single guy l'd install it my self. But after reviewing all thats required I'm going to have a professional install the system.
Thanks
Malcolm
Forming sheetmetal to mate the new hardware to the existing return and supply ducts can be quite simple for a good HVAC guy, and almost impossible for the rest of us.
Without knowing more it's impossible to say if it's going to be an easy swap or a nightmare requiring upgrading of any or all the parts of the system.
At the very least I'd look into a consultation with local building officals to see what they need, bring as much information as possible to a supply house that works with DIYers and can provide usefull information (not HD or Lowes), and ask around for someone who knows someone who knows about HVAC systems and can at least look at what you've got and offer good advice.
Good luck
Thank you
Good advice
Malcolm