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Discussion Forum

Installing Glass Countertops

Dave45 | Posted in General Discussion on February 18, 2006 04:57am

I’m building a kitchen island for a customer that will have a glass countertop.  The top will be 3/4″ thick and measure 60″ x 60″ with a 36″ x 28″ cutout for a Viking range.  The top will overhang the cabinet by ~2-1/2″.

The customer is balking at Home Depot Expo’s $700 installation charge and has asked me if I could install it.  The cabinet has a solid 1/2″ plywood top so the glass will be completely supported.

Anyone have any experience installing glass countertops?

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Replies

  1. sledgehammer | Feb 18, 2006 05:13pm | #1

    Chances are who ever is making that top is also installing it. Rule of thumb with glass is, you break it you bought it.

     

    Can you make enough profit to cover a bad experience?

    1. Dave45 | Feb 18, 2006 05:31pm | #2

      You must have missed part of my post, Sledgehammer - lol. 

      The top is manufactured by Oldcastle Glass for Home Depot Expo.  The homeowner wants to avoid Expo's $700 installation charge and is looking for options (i.e. having me install it).  I told him that I would look into it and let him know.

      I know all about "You break it, you buy it", but would like to hear from someone who does this regarding how it's done.  Then, I'll decide if I'm willing to take the shot - lol.

      1. Mark | Feb 18, 2006 08:38pm | #5

        well Dave,  given the fact that you didn't get any hits from people with experience... I would be very very leary  of attempting this.  However,    if you decide to tackle it anyway.   I'd charge them $650.   " If I were a carpenter"

  2. ponytl | Feb 18, 2006 06:25pm | #3

    I wouldn't even blink an eye...  $500 install....  then the next time you'd be "experienced" and just got paid $500 to become so....  shouldn't even have to use the space to type the normal cautions ect...  it's glass...duhh....  I would like you to post a picture...  I've wanted to use back painted/etched glass in a shower  just never have.... 

    p

  3. timkline | Feb 18, 2006 06:39pm | #4

    how is this 60 x 60 top with a cutout going to get from the fabricator to the kitchen  ?

     

    carpenter in transition

  4. sledgehammer | Feb 18, 2006 09:00pm | #6

    Dave, if you are really interested I would carefully research oldcastles instructions. I seriously doubt this is as easy as placing a 250lb pc of glass on top of the cabinets. I'd guess you'll need 4 heavy lifters with heavy duty glass suction cups in your tool box because sliding it around on cabinet tops I doubt is recommended. Part of the installation is taking responsibility that it is done correctly. I do not have any experience with glass counters but plenty with glass in general and having a viking range in a glass top over solid topped cabinets screams thermal stress breakage to me ... and that would be installation problem.

     

    FWIW if this were me I wouldn't be trying to save the customer money but be asking how much does the customer that is buying a viking range and glass tops expect to save having these items installed by persons with no experience ... and why?

    1. Dave45 | Feb 18, 2006 09:24pm | #7

      Thanks to everyone who has responded so far.  Yeah, I'm definitely cautious about this but I'm also intrigued.   One big contributor to my reasonably successful engineering career was that I was willing to tackle the difficult jobs - and managed to make most of them work.  Sometimes, listening to people tell me the reasons why something couldn't be done gave me the blueprint for the specific problems I had to solve to get 'er done - lol. 

      I haven't agreed to do this yet and I want to find out exactly what's involved before I commit either way.  So far, the best argument for not doing it is that the total cost per sq. ft. (fabrication, delivery, and installation) is pretty close to the sq. ft. cost for the more typical countertops.  If that's true, then I'll probably pass since there's no significant advantage to either the customer or me.

      Apparently, glass counter tops are fairly common in Asia and Europe.  They're supposed to be easier to clean and keep clean and they're definitely a different "look".  Everyone I've told about this job is insisting that I take lots of pictures - they're fascinated with the concept.  The cabinet and top is supposed to be installed in early March and I'll post pictures then.

       

  5. User avater
    Nuke | Feb 18, 2006 10:09pm | #8

    What color is this glass? I'm not seeing where someone shopping at HD Expo Center has any right to 'compain' about an insured delivery and installation. If they cannot afford it, tell them to go get something cheaper.

    Ok, that was mean. Is this glass really able to hide the plywood substrate underneath it?

    1. Dave45 | Feb 19, 2006 01:14am | #9

      Yeah, Nuke - that was a bit mean.  First of all, I don't tell my customers what to do.  Since they're writing the checks, they get to make the choices.  If I disagree, I'll offer options and try to persuade them to change their mind.  That's usually enough although I have walked away a couple of times.

      Most of my customers are quite well-to-do and live in multi-million dollar homes.  99% of the time, their objective is a high quality job and they freely admit that they don't know (or really care) about the details.  That's why they hire me.

      None of them got their money because they're dumb - or wasteful.  Wealthy people are just as interested in saving money as everyone else.  One of my customers just spent mega-bucks remodeling an apartment in San Francisco but they get their groceries from Costco - lol.

      As to the color of the glass, it's bronze.  The color actually results from an opaque coating on the bottom which will completely hide the substrate.  In fact, the manufacturer told me that objects sitting on the glass appear to be floating since the glass is actually clear and the color is on the bottom.

      1. ponytl | Feb 19, 2006 01:23am | #10

        I've installed alot of plate glass... storefronts...  and 3/4" glass you could drive a truck on...  if this was 12" sq tiles you guys would say "nothing to it..."   with the lip you have to work with I don't see needing suction cups  and not sure i'd want em lift'n 3/4 glass anyway.....  kinda like the shower walls i want to use glass for... "it will break"  yet most showers are over 50%  are 1/4" tempered glass anyway... 

        I'd do it just to say i had....

        p

        1. sledgehammer | Feb 19, 2006 01:47am | #12

          You recommend picking up a u shaped piece of glass laying flat by it's edges?

          I'd rather have the suckers and not need them , then need them and not have them.

           

          The nice thing about suction cups is when glass breaks your chances of getting hurt are greatly reduced. Seen to many people go through agonizing reconstructive surgury when heavy glass decides to go where you didn't expect.

           

           

          1. ponytl | Feb 19, 2006 04:44am | #16

            never said not to use the suction cups...  just said @3/4" they aren't required  imho... think of it as nothing more than a glass table top...  how many have you moved and placed and not had a problem...  i think this is being way over thought...  if i ordered one I wouldn't even think about it before installing it... I'd bet 90% of natural stone is alot more prone to break than this glass... not that glass doesn't have a grain or so i've been told... just betting whoever would show up to do the install would be far less careful than anyone on this board...  I just don't see it as a big deal "just cause it's glass"

            but then i answer yes to "can you do this" and figure out how later...  just take'n a break now from rebuilding a control valve in my garage for an elevator... repair guys wanted 7k   yes that is $7000.00 for a replacement installed... said you couldn't get parts for the one i have ect... the rebuild kit was sitting right next to it... if  they even looked... none of the pressure check ports had been touched so i know they didn't even check it out... then as the last step to it's removal i had to disconnect 4 wires that went to the magnetic control valves.... turns out one wire was not connected to the terminal block... 99% sure that was the whole problem... but since I already had the whole valve off and it did leak at the o rings and gaskets some figured i might as well clean it up and replace the seals & gaskets since i had em.... hope i get it put back in service before the daytona 500...  Just another reason I hate call'n anyone to do anything...

            p

            p

          2. sledgehammer | Feb 19, 2006 05:56am | #18

            never said not to use the suction cups...  just said @3/4" they aren't required  imho... think of it as nothing more than a glass table top...  how many have you moved and placed and not had a problem

            A  glass table top this is not. It is a very heavy piece of glass with a very large cutout containing tight inside corner radiuses. One nick chip or scratch is an invite for expensive sounds if the piece is twisted even slightly.

             

            You may be able to set this piece with the greatest of confidence and my hats off to you... But the chances of my witnessing that are right in line with me hearing you say "hold my beer and watch this"...  ;-)

          3. jabberwock | Feb 19, 2006 08:02am | #19

            Weight shouldn't be too bad -- I drove a glass truck (yes, a truck made of glass) on occasion a mere 20 years ago.  I remember delivering a 600 pound bulletproof unit that was several times thicker than this countertop (although that's misleading, because there was some kind of plastic core to the big unit.)

            Glass weighs about 150 pounds a cubic foot.  This unit is .75/12 feet thick, multiply by 25 (it's 5X5 feet) and it should weigh 235 pounds less the cutout (60 pounds-ish).  175 pounds sounds reasonable for two careful people, but nothing I'd want to tackle.  Glass is usually less vulnerable than we expect, but that cutout makes the piece a bit sensitive.

            I'd like to see photos too, I like alternative countertop materials -- I think my next client is going the concrete route.

            Geoff

      2. BobKovacs | Feb 19, 2006 01:41am | #11

        Dave-

        If the glass is one 3/4" thick piece of float glass, that put the coating on the bottom, where it will be susceptable to scratching if you set it down and accidentially slide it over a piece of debris or something.  If it's laminated glass (most likely), the color layer may be on an inner surface.

        I've never been one to be afraid of these types of things either (I recently did a project with over $1 million worth of glass floors and stair treads that no one wanted to take responsibility for coordinating)- but I'd find out what the top costs before I offer to set it for $500.  Knowing Oldcastle, it's not cheap (they supplied the glass for the job I mentioned above)- I'd bet that 5'x5' piece of glass cost the client at least $2500- and I wouldn't risk owning that for a measly $500.

        Best of luck,

        Bob

      3. User avater
        Nuke | Feb 19, 2006 02:32am | #13

        If the client had a concern about the HD Expo installers doing a good job then I could see their point in getting someone external (eg you), but this isn't about that (per your initial description). This is about their finding the installation quoted by HD Expo being too expensive.

        This doesn't seem kosher to me. $500 for you or $700 from the supplier, yet what insurance does the client get if you break it (not that you will)? :) Again, this is nothing against you, but rather your client. Usually a client seeks to save considerably if they are balking about $700 on a glass kitchen countertop install. Not something someone without money-concern would be spending time on.

        Hey, take a picture of the post-install. I am curious as to how it will look. That's one hunk of glass going in!

        1. Dave45 | Feb 19, 2006 02:53am | #14

          This thread is getting more interesting by the minute.  So far, nobody has said "Yeah, I've done that and here's how it's done." - which is what I was hoping for - lol.

          I'm curious about where the $500 price tag came from - I didn't mention it.  I'm just trying to find out how this would be installed.  Until I know that, there's no way I would be able to price the installation - if I did it at all.  I'm looking for the nuts and bolts.........I already have a PhD in CYA - lol.

          Actually, I've pretty much decided to pass on the installation.  I may try to be there when it's installed, but just as an observer.

          1. HeavyDuty | Feb 19, 2006 04:32am | #15

            I would think that it's like installing a piece of stone of comparative thickness except you have to watch out for the coating. Typically stone installers would reinforce the U with steel bars and clamps before lifting the top to set on the cabinets.

          2. DougU | Feb 19, 2006 05:52am | #17

            Dave

            I'm curious, how much does this piece of glass weigh?

            I cant imagine that a little prep ahead of time wouldn't result in a very smooth area for  the glass to sit, thus no scratching the bottom.

            I'm finishing up a kitchen and the island is ~4' X 7' with a sink cutout. The granite top is 6 cm's on the outer edge and 3 cm's in the field. 4 guys lifted that thing off the truck and set it in place. I cant believe that your piece of glass weighs any thing close to the granite. No suction cups were used. Must have taken all of 10 minutes from the time the top came off the truck until it was set in its final resting place.

            Doug

             

             

  6. saulgood | Feb 19, 2006 08:21am | #20

    Never installed a glass countertop, but this works well with granite:
    With your assistants standing by, plop down your adhesive in several spots (like the dots on dice) on the substrate. Then place a few ice cubes at equal points amidst the adhesive. This will help you position the glass perfectly, as it will slide easily into place. When the ice melts the top will settle in just where you want it. Assuming that the color on the bottom isn't water soluable (you should check), this should work fine.

    1. TomMGTC | Feb 19, 2006 01:32pm | #21

      Now that is ingenious.Tom

      Douglasville, GA

      1. Dave45 | Feb 19, 2006 04:51pm | #23

        Well, I had a conversation with the customer yesterday and convinced him that having the glass professionally installed made the most sense.  The total cost of the glass (fabrication, delivery, and installation) is only about 10% more than an equivalent piece of granite and the clincher was the fact that the pros will have all the necessary tools, experience,  ...................and insurance - lol.

        I'll still try to watch the installation, but now I can stay focused on finishing the designs and building the other cabinets he wants.  I'll post pictures when it's all done.

        Edited 2/19/2006 8:54 am by Dave45

        1. dgbldr | Feb 20, 2006 01:04am | #24

          Dave, we've done this and I don't recommend it for a different reason.  Glass tops do scratch with use. Just look at a kitchen or dining table with glass top that's been in use for a few years (yes, even expensive ones).  Unless it's sapphire glass (like on expensive watches) or somehow textured to hide the scratches.

          Granite hides scratches much better, depending on colors, etc.

          Installation was no different than granite. Actually had my stone guy do it. 

          DG/Builder

        2. User avater
          Matt | Feb 20, 2006 02:08am | #25

          I wonder... is a piece of glass like that tempered or not?  Also, I wonder if tempered glass is any more/less scratch resistant?

          1. Dave45 | Feb 20, 2006 03:34am | #26

            dgbldr -

            It's the customers choice.  That question came up and Oldcastle told me that the glass is polished and sealed and very resistant to scratching.  Time will tell, I suppose.

            Matt -

            It isn't tempered - which surprised me.  Part of the island I'm building has section with adjustable shelving.  They asked for bypass sliding glass doors in the same color as the top.  Oldcastle is making them too, but out of 1/4" tempered glass.  It's what they use for backsplash material and has the colored coating on the back.  It should be a really neat effect.

          2. DML | Feb 20, 2006 06:10am | #27

            It sounds like you've made your decision, and I think I would go with the pro installer on this, but since we're on the subject here's one more thought.

            I have installed backpainted glass on a few jobs and one thing that my supplier told me is to use a very specific Dow Corning Silicon based adhesive. They had problems with other adhesives reacting with paint over time and coming through.

            Removing a 175lb piece of glass that is glued to a substrate - nasty. 

          3. Dave45 | Feb 20, 2006 05:10pm | #29

            very specific Dow Corning Silicon based adhesive

            I was wondering about that.  If I get a chance, I'll ask the installers what they use.

          4. dgbldr | Feb 20, 2006 09:19am | #28

            No, Matt, tempered glass is not particularly scratch-resistant.  I have several pieces of tempered glass in my house including an all-glass interior door, a dining table, etc. and they all have scratches in spite of very careful, light use. 

            DG/Builder

          5. Danno | Feb 20, 2006 05:52pm | #30

            Tempered glass once scratched is likely to break along that scratch--look at tempered glass coffe pots--they warn not to use abrasive cleansers or scrub pads. I would think untempered would actually be better--less likely to suddenly disintegrate explosively.

          6. Dave45 | Apr 08, 2006 04:45pm | #31

            In February, I started a thread regarding glass countertops and got a lot of great feedback.  The top went in yesterday, and here are some pictures.

            Installation was an issue until early last week.  The Expo installer couldn't meet the deadline, so the customer hired a commercial glass company to do it.  It took them less than an hour - lol.

            Oldcastle recommended using "Acrylic-Pro" (a water-based tile mastic) spread with a 1/8" notch trowel.  This seemed to work fine and after a couple of hours, it had set enough to work around it again.

            Thanks again for all the input.

          7. ponytl | Apr 08, 2006 06:02pm | #32

            nice top...  I never saw a problem with the install... and your pics confirmed it... but if someone else is pay'n why not.... if it was mine i'd have installed it in a heartbeat... I never assume anyone is more careful or knows more than me until they prove it... It's so cool to be around anyone skilled, informed, ect.... it's a real change... maybe i just see the bottom more than the top...

            p

          8. Dave45 | Apr 08, 2006 07:47pm | #33

            Actually, having a pro do the installation was a good plan.  They had the right truck to get it to the site and knew how to handle large pieces of glass.  The top weighs almost 500# and placing it took several of us.

            The customer wanted me there to "supervise".  Since I had done all the design work, I knew exactly where it needed to be.  For the most part, I just explained what the finished job needed to look like, then kept out of the way and watched.

            I did have to give some coaching on troweling the mastic.  I've done lots more tile work than they have - lol.

          9. User avater
            CloudHidden | Apr 08, 2006 08:23pm | #34

            Dave, pretty cool! Can you offer some technical details? Thickness? Tempered? Did the mastic dry clear? Is the glass colored, as it appears? Does the mastic show through the color at all? Anything else?

          10. Dave45 | Apr 09, 2006 02:07am | #35

            Cloud -

            Now that I've done it once, I'm an expert so ask away - lol.  To answer your questions...

            The glass is 3/4" thick

            Not tempered.........(yeah, that surprised me too)

            The actual glass is clear and the color comes from the coating which is applied to the bottom - much like a mirror.  Several colors are available.

            That piece of glass is 19 sq ft and weighs ~475#.   I'm glad I looked into it before I built the island........I made it extra beefy to account for the weight.

            These tops are available from Home Depot's Expo Design Centers.  Like HD, you want to be careful who you talk to.........the associates aren't all that knowledgable.

            The manufacturer says that the coating makes the glass opaque and that there will be no "see-through" but that didn't happen on this job.  After the top was set, you could see a whitish layer under the glass.  The whitish layer was the mastic and you could see the edges of the cabinet where the glass overhung the cabinet.  It wasn't ugly, but it was visible.  I sent pictures to the manufacturer and expect to be hearing from them about it.

          11. Jerry18 | Apr 09, 2006 08:51am | #36

            That is a beautiful top. I had thought about 3/4" glass tops in my kitchen (sandblasted on the bottom) but worried about scratching. Glass does scratch very easily but as you said is suprisingly strong, even untempered.I did make a fully cantilevered top for the 1/2 bath out of 3/4" glass and although I never got a definitive answer, the general consensus of the experts was, it did not need to be tempered. So far, so good. Here's a pic and ther's more at: http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/leccej/my_photos - in case anyone's interested.JerryEdited 4/9/2006 1:53 am ET by Jerry18

            Edited 4/9/2006 1:54 am ET by Jerry18

          12. Frankie | Apr 09, 2006 05:20pm | #40

            Great pics on your website Jerry. Very impressive.You mentioned that you made the glass top for your 1/2 bath. Did you cut it to size and polish the edges yourself? I have never cut such a thick piece of glass. Same score and snap method?How about the bowl used as the sink? Was it a bowl intended to be used as a sink with the proper detailed holeand indent for the drain basket? Or did you fabricate it out of a bowl you found?I particularly like that you did your own stone fabrication. Which polisher and router do you have? I imagine you own as a stone router is not a typical rental item.I do not mean to hijack this thread but it is rare for me to find someone who is doing this kind of fabrication without a big shop.FrankieThere he goes—one of God's own prototypes—a high powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live and too rare to die.—Hunter S. Thompson
            from Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas

          13. Jerry18 | Apr 10, 2006 06:01am | #41

            Dave,
            I also hope I'm not hijacking your thread.Frankie,
            I believe the glass was 24"x30"x3/4" and I bought it from a glass distributor for $55. It came cut to size with a 1/8" bevel on all edges and polished. For another $450 (not a typo) they would have cut the 8" diameter hole required for the sink, so that I did myself. I think you can see some of the pictures of me drilling the hole with an 8" duct cap and some silicon carbide grit. The sink is made by Porcher (American Standard). The frame that supports the glass I welded up myself from some scrap.That was my first atempt at granite and I really enjoyed it. The only power tool I bought specifically for the job was a Flex 1503 water fed polisher. I made the water attachment for the circular saw and built the work table/tranporter also from scrap. Of course I had to buy all the diamond blades, pads and wheels. For the 3/8" roundover I used a diamond profile wheel made by Alpha that attaches to my polisher and most of the shaping was done with a 4-1/2" grinder with a diamond blade.If you have any questions, feel free to ask,
            Jerry

          14. Frankie | Apr 10, 2006 07:30pm | #42

            I just went back and took a better look at your pics. I am even more impressed now - if that is even possible!Your choice of toilets is great. I love the rear exhaust and having the toilet elevated off the floor. Was this for ease of mopping or is the bathroom in a basement/ on slab? I have gotten the in-wall tank design spec'd in the last 2 jobs I bid. Looks like it is becoming popular.Getting back to the stone countertop fabfrication - I have a similar Flex unit. Mine is reddish rather than yellow and has a water feed. I was not aware a profiling bit could be used on this unit. Did you find it dificult to keep the bit parallel and square to the slab? Does it have a bearing component as a router bit may have so that it can "ride" a template?The sink cutout must have been a challenge. Tell me how that went. I would think that any error in this area would be very apparent. How did you maintain a consistant profile?BTW - nice design and fabrication on the transporter. Note to self: Learn to weld.Thanks for the pics. I look forward to learning more.FrankieThere he goes—one of God's own prototypes—a high powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live and too rare to die.—Hunter S. Thompson
            from Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas

          15. Jerry18 | Apr 11, 2006 02:29pm | #43

            Sorry i didn't get back to you sooner but I've been busy. I'll post later today.If noone object i may copy some of this to a new thread in "Constucuion Techniques"Jerry

          16. Frankie | Apr 11, 2006 03:31pm | #44

            Cool.No rush. Good things take time.FThere he goes—one of God's own prototypes—a high powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live and too rare to die.—Hunter S. Thompson
            from Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas

          17. draftingguy | Apr 11, 2006 07:15pm | #45

            The pictures in your album really illustrate the effort that went into that little half bath! Looks great...Where did you get your lavatory? While I don't think I have the time to go the glass countertop route, the sink would look good on the type of vanity I'm contemplating.

          18. Jerry18 | Apr 12, 2006 07:31am | #46

            Moved this thread here:http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=72306.1Jerry

          19. Jerry18 | Apr 12, 2006 07:32am | #47

            Moved this thread here:http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=72306.1Jerry

          20. wrudiger | Apr 09, 2006 09:16am | #37

            "Not tempered.........(yeah, that surprised me too)"

            One tap on the edge of a piece of tempered glass and it goes into hundreds of little pieces.  The tempering (heat treating) causes the glass to go into a more crystaline pattern, which is stronger on the face (throw something at it and it's likely to come back at ya) but more brittle on the edge because of the way the crystals align.

            I probably totally botched the technical description, but I can vouch for the results!

          21. Jerry18 | Apr 09, 2006 09:33am | #38

            Here's what I found out about tempered glass (probobly not any more technically correct than your description).The glass is heated and the the surface is cooled more quickly than the core putting the piece in perpetual compression, making it much stronger. They can vary the depth of the surface "skin" for different applications, but when the skin is compromised, by a deep scratch, by drilling, impact or chipping the edge, all that surface tension is immediately released and the piece sort of explodes. I guess it works on the same principle as pre-stressed or post-tensioned concrete.Jerry

          22. wrudiger | Apr 09, 2006 09:51am | #39

            Good explanation - that makes sense. Thanks for the info!

    2. Dave45 | Feb 19, 2006 04:40pm | #22

      Saulgood -

      That sounds like a technique I heard about several years ago for lowering phone company conduit runs.  They trenched beside the conduit - undercutting as much as they could.  Then, they packed the undercut areas with blocks of dry ice and dug away the remaining dirt support sections.  As the dry ice sublimated, the whole structure slowly lowered into place.  I never saw it done, but some old timers told it it worked really well.

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