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| I am installing an Ipe deck for a customer but I am not sure how I want to fasten the deck boards. I don’t have access to the underside of the joist for the Deckmaster system as the deck is 2×8 over a concrete slab. I am considering the Eb-Ty system and I am looking for feed back on Eb-Ty. My friend told me that on This Old House they used marine adhesive and face nailed with finish nails but I am not sold on that idea yet. Any Ideas or suggestions. Thanks, Joe | |||
Edited 4/1/2002 10:52:31 PM ET by Joe L
Replies
Hey Joe L,,John Hyatt here,,Ipe is the top of the line decking,,,we have used it for years,,the underdeck channel is a pain,,the Ipe clips are good if you really want to warm up your bisket jointer,,most of the time my co. face screws on this material,we tried the chanell fasening system one time,,never again. I like the Ipeclips over the other brand just because I can get them out of my nail bag a little faster,,only SS screws on Ipe,,it will eat up everything else,,lets go get em!! John Hyatt DeckMasters deckmastersllc.com
Joe,
In the future, please post your discussion in one folder only.
Thank you.
Joe,
Eb-Ty is pricey and laborious, but once you get in a groove it goes fairly quickly and is fairly inconspicuous.
To me, with Ipe it's either Eb-Ty or pre-drilling and screwing with stainless. Then plugging the screw holes, sanding flush, etc.
Do you have a recommended adhesive to hold the plugs in ?.
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
Gorrilla glue works great PhillBob
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
The ebty system is a pain- If you use it be sure you screw through the ebty and the ironwood because the ebty will not hold the wood down by itself. Bob
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
If you pre-drill and plug- use Stainless fasteners-and plug with Gorrilla glue. The plugs cost 15 cents each and they are not tappered, so they are difficult to install.Bob
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Hey Guy,,it great to get ideas from you guys,my Co. is about the only one around that uses Ipe so I have to learn as I go,,we have been using it for 8 years now and I love the material,one question I have is why do you leave so much space inbetween the decking?man my customers would hate that,If am thinking it is for ventlation,we handle that with vents, like soffit vents,installed in the skirting ,with a router detail and screen on the back,what do you think? John Hyatt deckmastersllc.com
John- We leave the gap for all wood and even composite decking to move and to allow for moisture to pass through and it also lets the product dry faster after a hard rain.
That is three good reasons we like to space our decking but others in this forum will tell you why they like no space between products.
You state that your customers would hate it. Why?Bob
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Nice Pics.
Two questions for you:
1. I noticed that you only installed one screw per joist location, and that you alternated the fasteners so to give even hold down pressure. How come only one screw per joist per deck board. Why not at least 2 screws per joist? Is Ipe less prone to cupping? If you were using treated lumber instead (5/4 deck board) how many screws would you then use to hold it down at each joist location? Reason I ask is that I've always used 2 screws at each location...perhaps I'm wasting my time.
2. I believe Ipe would be a "special order item at any of my lumber yards. The local box places don't carry this either. What is the cost of a 5/4 X 6inch X 16 foot deck board in IPE?
Thanks,
Davo
Davo- We use 1x4 IPE @ $1.35 per foot. I wouldn't recommend 1x6" because of the cupping problems. Alternating fasteners when screwing is more than adaquate for holding down any product.Bob
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Thanks for the reply. Again, nice pics.
What brand of wood sealer would you recommend for IPE? Do you apply a sealer coat such as CWF, or Sikkens, or do you simply let it weather?
One last question, hope you don't mind....Do lumber suppliers, such as Georgia Pacific or Weyhauser handle this product, or is this only available from a specialty supplier?
Thanks.
Davo
Penofin sealer every other year.....
Hardwood lumber suppliers usually give you the best price on IPEBob
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Then Penofin it is!
Thanks so much.
Davo.
try marine supply stores ( like http://www.jamestowndistributors ) for plugs ( bungs ) in quantity.. any species... even Trex... $0.15... is way too much......
the dowel bit .. puts end grain up.. the bungs run the grain the same direction as the decking.... and bungs with gorilla or epoxy (or sika flex) will last forever...no different than plugging the deck of a yacht...
bungs (plugs ) will be about the same labor as the eb-tys....Mike Smith
Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
With the EB-TY system you would be " saving" on labor costs, compared to plugging, because you're eliminating plunge motions. Not only the labor savings, you have a fastener free surface without the "extra" labor involved in chiseling and sanding the plugs down. If you are interested in the facts try http://www.EBTY.com or http://www.swansecure.com and they'll straighten things out for you.
gesms... bs on teh extra labor.. they're a mexican standoff.. you forgot about plunge routing the side of the plank to accept the eb-ty..Mike Smith
Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, it's a Mexican stand off until you have put in the plugs and then chisel or sand them down, so you're forgetting about 4 extra motions, plus, the spacing of the boards, which doesn't have to be done with EB-TY. Also, you've interrupted the surface of the deck board with all your plugs.
Labor for EB-TY in Hardwoods
2 bisquit slots
1 pilot hole
1 screw
No spacing of the board required
Labor for Screw and Plug Method
2 pilot holes
2 screws required
spacing required
2 glued plugs
chiseling and sanding plugs flush
well call me olde fashioned... but i'll stick to bungsMike Smith
Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"GESMS"
Is that you, George E.?
Mongo
Whats up mongo?
Hey George,
I thought that might be you. Tough to tell with the new format and new callsigns.
I hope business is going well for you.
Business is excellent, I hope the same to you. Get me an address and I'll send some hats and shirts. Or is this like chewing gum and you gotta give everybody some?
Edited 4/24/2002 9:37:59 PM ET by GESMS
Mike,
They're not end-grain dowels. They're from some guy in New London (CT) that mills them on his own.
yeah, well, i wuz in a rush & forgot my sign-off..
but hey, whadda i no ?
bet they don't work out to $0.15 a hole either.
so, mongo...is this just a super long bung? or is it a remanufactured material, or what ?Mike Smith
Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
Consider it to be a "remanufactured super-long bung."
How's that for muddling the issue.<g>
Actually, I go them from an old retired guy. He had an amazing shop...full of hte old belt-driven machinery. A place that made you want to pull up a chair and watch him work. He took blanks and milled them in to cross-grain dowels. His setup resulted in 36" long dowels. Essentially, they're as you described...super-long bungs. Some had a single glue line to get the 36" length, but that line only affected a sixteenth-inch of the 36" length. Pretty sturdy, but I'd snap them into shorter lengths. I made a purchase back in...'97-ish...and still haven't run out of that initial supply.
Bad initial "dowel reference" on my part. You're right in that it wouldn't be wise to use a simple end-grain dowel. I should have included more info in that original post.
Hey Davo,,,I use TWP.as a finish on Ipe and most everything else,,I used SuperDeck for like 12 years and they sold out and changed the product,,its the american way..TWP is a bit short or color,,so I mix SuperDeck with it when I need to,,I get ipe from two guys http://www.AdvantageLumber.com and http://www.ipe-wood.com
John,
Thanks so much for the info. I've been tinkering with the idea of adding a deck to MY HOUSE (my wife will be in shock if she finds out I'm gonna do some work for her for a change) and using IPE sounds pretty good to me right now.
I will definately check out the web sites you mentioned.
Thanks again.
Davo
Man I wish is was possible to get through to this site,,,anyway,,I dont know if the shiping would be bad for you guys but http://www.ipe-wood.com everwood decking partnersltd is selling Ipe 1x4 for .75 a lin ft,,,they are docking it in Huston. The site http://www.deckweb.com,,has about the same amount of things on I guess to pay the bills and it is so much user frendly it almost puts a mint under your pillow,,John Hyatt deckmastersllc.com
Hey Dave,,just in case you find this post in all of this,,,the stagered pattern,two on the ends and one up and then one down,,keeps a long span between the holes you are puting in the wood,,thus less chance of a split happening between faseners,,and it lets the wood move when it has to,another great help in the split depatrment,,and it saves you time and money,,I first learned about this from Redwood Asso,,it has worked great for me for 10 years or so,like 0 call backs,,it is the way to go for anydeck material,,one thing about geting Ipe,,I do all that by finding guys on line with the best price/tax,,the best I have found is http://www.ipe-wood.com they are selling 1x4 ipe for .75 a lin ft,,,John Hyatt deckmastersllc.com
John,
Here's what I do with Ipe for minimal board spacing::
If you want to lay the boards tight with no spacing, you can. However, don't clamp them or use a tool to snug them together. Just slide them together "hand tight" Some shrinkage occurs as the wood dries. You can expect about 1/16” on 1 x 4 boards and 1/8” on 1 x 6 boards. This is what I expect and plan for in the Northeast. Hot, arid areas could expect slightly more shrinkage.
If installing in the winter (or temps below about 40 degrees) I wouldn't snug them tight. I'd run a minimum gap of 1/16".
An aside...I also coat freshly cut board ends with a paraffin-based sealer.
Hey Mongo,,,thanks for the reply,thats about the spacing we use as well,it must have been the picture of your work that threw me,,it had like 1/2'' inbetween,,must be what the customer wanted,,this plug thing really is intersting,,we counter sink the ss screws they never shine like some of the posts are talking about,,if the customer dosent want even that to show we use Bordans Polly glue and Ipe sawdust from the chop saw,sand it with the orbital,,and its done,,a lot less work and it shows a lot less than those like big plugs I am seeing in the pictures,,,and I am thinking with the counter sink for the plugs in 1x4 material the screw has like 1/2 " or less bearing on the wood,,sounds like problems to me,,more so with just one fassener in the middle of the board. thanks man,,ghesssss this site is really hard to get around in,,John Hyatt deckmastersllc.com
John,
Those pics were Pro Deck's, not mine. I went back and looked, they were of a bench, so maybe the spacing was increased for the bench boards?
I always use two fasteners per joist.
Bruce,
I did my first Ipe about...12 years ago. I revisited last August. Coastal New England environment, right on the beach, gets hammered with salt water spray in the big storms. Still looked as good as Day One.
Ipe is a great deck wood.
I'm thinking this site needs a glossary. Fascinating thread on IPE, I just have one question, what's IPE? Thanks, I'm from Canada.
Patrick,
Ipe is a tropical (Central/South american) hardwood. Genus Tabebuia. Varies in color from greens to browns, color depends on growing conditions. Typically used as a decking material, but I've made outside furniture from it as well...chairs, benches, tables.
Very dense, very tough on carbide when cutting/milling. That toughness is what makes it a great decking material. Outstanding resistance to decay. The sawdust can act as an irritant/allergen, so a mask is recommended.
Some also market it under the trademarked name of "Pau Lope."
Should be around Patrick, but is often special order. Acorn and Lansing both carry it here, try your local big box (but probably not HD)..
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
I recently installed 2000 sq. ft deck using 8d stainless steel finish nails (pre drilled of course). I have used the screws but hated the look. What do you guys think about this technique?
Benny,
There are two things I personally prefer in a deck regarding fasteners:
Screws over nails.
No visible fastener heads.
In your case, I probably would have recommended stainless square-drive trim head screws. Still stainless, still have a low-profile head, but they're threaded for better holding power...and screws are easier to remove, should you ever have to do so.
I totally agree with you regarding the visual blight of a zillion shiney stainless screw heads reflecting in the sun. I even find colored screw heads a distraction. That's why, if face-screwing, I want the screw holes plugged. All wood, no fastener. With Ipe it makes sense.
I'm glad the nails worked fine for you, and you made a wise choice using stainless.
Regards,
Mongo
Hey Mongo, we've done a few Ipe decks, both square edge and tongue and groove for porches. The way we do the sq. edge is like mentioned above-pre-drill, counter sink s.s screws, plug, and chisel and sand flush. We've had good luck with Premium adhesive for the plugs. Good luck!! Let us know what you do. Thadeus
Hey Pro-Dek... With the number of plugs you have going, how do you quickly knock them all down flush with the decking? I could see that being semi-labor intensive...
We just take the beltsander to them. They knock down fast with 80 grit paper.Bob
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Thanks. I wasn't sure if you sawed them off first then hit them with the belt sander, or if you just let the belt sander go to town. Your results looked great!
Bob,
Have you ever used Ipe dowels to plug the holes? The ones I use are about 36" long. Usually run about a half-dozen at a time. Glue, tap the dowel into the hole, use a japanese saw to just about flush-cut the dowels off, then after the glue has cured, snub off the 16th or so that's proud of the deck board with the sander.
Overall I've found it to be a bit faster than the plugs. Less expensive than sanding half of each plug into Ipe-dust, too.<g>
That was a great series of Ipe pics you posted in the gallery a while back.
Thanks Mongo- I've never seen or used the type of plug your talking about.Sounds pretty slick. Those are IPE plugs we used but not 3' long. A sharp chisel works pretty good for cutting the plugs before sanding but the glue has to be set.
I look forward to posting more pictures when I get my camera back from California. My wife dropped it, and cameras don't like to be dropped.Bob
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Pro-Dek
Love that look, and have considered going this route... but are you concerned what those plugs are going to look like after 3 or 4 years of freeze/thaw, direct hot sun, lots of foot traffic and 14 day soaking rains?
BruceM
Bruce-I think the plugs will do fine as long as the deck surface is sealed with Penifin every couple of years. It is when the deck surface dries out that the wood shrinks,thus pulling the glue from the plug.This is my first try with the new Gorrilla glue. It actually expands between the product you are glueing. I can only liken it to thick SuperGlue because if you get it between you fingers you have to separate them with a knife. :-)Bob
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"