I am building a small manufactured stone fireplace, replacing the mantel which was in need of replacing. I installed barrier, metal lath, scratch coat. When i tried to install the stone using type S mortar i had problems getting them to stick to the wall. the mortar seems to stick to the stone just fine. Reading the manufacture website and many sites on the net it seems you can add thinset to the type s to make it more sticky? I was just wondering if you guys had any helpful tips to share. this is a pretty small project , appx 30 sf. The stone is a dry stack with no grout joints and i tried wetting the stone and the scratch coat. What proportions should i mix the thinset with the quikqrete? any help will be greatly appreciated. thanks in advance.
Frank
We were the winners, cause we didnt know we could fail….
Waylon…
“I was born in the darkest ignorance, and my spiritual master opened my eyes with the torch of knowledge. I offer my respectful obeisances unto him.” Aciores autem morsus sunt intermissae quam retentae. (Freedom suppressed and then regained bites with keener fangs than freedom never endangered.) Cicero, De Officiis ” once i had woman with high hand, and i let her treat me mighty low man, she made a lover of my best freind, and now he treats me like a hasbeen…”
Replies
I had the same problem when I put some cultured stone around a window on my house. I ended up using straight thin set for tile work. I troweled it on the cement board ( I didnt do lathe and scratch coat process), combed it out with a noched trowel, back buttered the stone and stuck it on. It didn't budge, and after it dried I could not pull it off no matter how hard I tried. This is outside and has gone through several winters and I never had a problem. It was a much cleaner process too, like tiling a wall. Hope this helps, good luck.
Craig
thanks, any particular brand or type of thinset?? i have gotten a few on but havent been willling to see if they stuck yet or not...We were the winners, cause we didnt know we could fail....
Waylon...
"I was born in the darkest ignorance, and my spiritual master opened my eyes with the torch of knowledge. I offer my respectful obeisances unto him."
Aciores autem morsus sunt intermissae quam retentae.
(Freedom suppressed and then regained bites with keener fangs than freedom never endangered.)
Cicero, De Officiis
" once i had woman with high hand, and i let her treat me mighty low man, she made a lover of my best freind, and now he treats me like a hasbeen..."
wolf did you try to thin your mortar making it a little looser? also on some styles of rock when you pres it on the wall don't overdo it, as the more you wiggle it around the more problems you have it sticking. In the past week I have hung and grouted about 600 sq.ft. and had that problem the first few hours of messing with this particular pattern.
well at first i think it was too thick, then i thinned it a little, and that seemed to help but still had a lot of trouble getting them to stick, i had to hold them for several minutes. on the man site they say to mix 2 parts s type to 1 thinset, i may make a small batch of that and try it...just wondering what the pros are doing.
thanks for all your replies..
Frank
We were the winners, cause we didnt know we could fail....
Waylon...
"I was born in the darkest ignorance, and my spiritual master opened my eyes with the torch of knowledge. I offer my respectful obeisances unto him."
Aciores autem morsus sunt intermissae quam retentae.
(Freedom suppressed and then regained bites with keener fangs than freedom never endangered.)
Cicero, De Officiis
" once i had woman with high hand, and i let her treat me mighty low man, she made a lover of my best freind, and now he treats me like a hasbeen..."
It was just regular thin set I got in a bag from Home Depot, it was versabond I think, so it has a little bit of latex additive in it, which I wanted cause its outside and I figured it would be good if the stuff had a little flexability in it.
wyowolf,
Here in the south it is common practice to mix a scoop of portland in with the mix to make it ''more stickier''.
Actually, I've never tried to stick rocks without putting portland in the mix so I don't know if it makes it better or not, I just know it works real well.
I back butter my stones and then with my trowel I ditch out a small hole in the middle of the mud..... to make suction I suppose, I really don't know, thats just the way I was taught to do it.
I think you mentioned this, but I always wet down my scratch coat on hot days.
BTW, your scratch coat was "scratched" and not troweled smooth was'nt it?
Hope this helps...
dug
thanks i will try that, yes i did rough up the surface as much as i thought i could, i feels pretty rough to me... i read about the suction thing too, will try that as well. yes i am here in hotlanta too.. thanks for your advice.FrankWe were the winners, cause we didnt know we could fail....
Waylon...
"I was born in the darkest ignorance, and my spiritual master opened my eyes with the torch of knowledge. I offer my respectful obeisances unto him."
Aciores autem morsus sunt intermissae quam retentae.
(Freedom suppressed and then regained bites with keener fangs than freedom never endangered.)
Cicero, De Officiis
" once i had woman with high hand, and i let her treat me mighty low man, she made a lover of my best freind, and now he treats me like a hasbeen..."
is there not already portland cement in the type s mortar?? sorry am unfamilar with the different mixtures , or are you just saying add more?FrankWe were the winners, cause we didnt know we could fail....
Waylon...
"I was born in the darkest ignorance, and my spiritual master opened my eyes with the torch of knowledge. I offer my respectful obeisances unto him."
Aciores autem morsus sunt intermissae quam retentae.
(Freedom suppressed and then regained bites with keener fangs than freedom never endangered.)
Cicero, De Officiis
" once i had woman with high hand, and i let her treat me mighty low man, she made a lover of my best freind, and now he treats me like a hasbeen..."
I tossed in another bit of Portland and we had some acrylic base coat for synthetic stucco so I tossed in a bit of that. The stone stuck like crazy with great suction. You don't want it dry and you don't want it runny. The perfect consistency is about like the cheese grits my daughter ordered on Sat for the first time (and then didn't like!).
ok thanks, you know i have lived here in atl for about 15 yrs and never liked grits , until a guy in the shop made these sausage cheese grits, i love them, but have never tried another grit...thanks, sounds like portland is the way to go...FrankWe were the winners, cause we didnt know we could fail....
Waylon...
"I was born in the darkest ignorance, and my spiritual master opened my eyes with the torch of knowledge. I offer my respectful obeisances unto him."
Aciores autem morsus sunt intermissae quam retentae.
(Freedom suppressed and then regained bites with keener fangs than freedom never endangered.)
Cicero, De Officiis
" once i had woman with high hand, and i let her treat me mighty low man, she made a lover of my best freind, and now he treats me like a hasbeen..."
Yep, add more....
More portland = more sticky = more harder to clean if ya get a little too ambitious with the mud
I've seen guys stick cultured stack from the top down using this mixture so they were sure to not get mud on the stones below.
I've always went from the bottom up, outside corners in;.......pick up stone, back butter, ditch out small suction hole with corner of trowel, push stone in place, couple taps with back of trowel handle to set,scrape away excess ooze, repeat. I tend to use a small margin trowel for this.
IF... ya have to make a few cuts, make sure ya put the ugly side where its the least visible.
On the scratch coat, I just trowel it on smooth and level and use a scrap piece of lath to "scratch" it before it sets.
Lemme know how it turns out
dug
thanks will try that , but not sure how much of that i can do, the stones are pretty thin, only about an inch or inch and a half most of them, some a little wider, but will do it where i can. thanks to everyone for the info...
Frank
will let you know..
We were the winners, cause we didnt know we could fail....
Waylon...
"I was born in the darkest ignorance, and my spiritual master opened my eyes with the torch of knowledge. I offer my respectful obeisances unto him."
Aciores autem morsus sunt intermissae quam retentae.
(Freedom suppressed and then regained bites with keener fangs than freedom never endangered.)
Cicero, De Officiis
" once i had woman with high hand, and i let her treat me mighty low man, she made a lover of my best freind, and now he treats me like a hasbeen..."
Just add some portland and water to the mix.
BTW, you mean you are facing the fireplace, right? Man-made stone will not work to build a fireplace. You need firebrick for that.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
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yes just the facing, the one the builder put was not too nice so wife decided to spruce it up some, i think it will look nice when finished. putting up the barrier and lath was not really that hard, nor putting on the scratch coat, that all went really well. probably my mixture is not quite right... on a side note i have noticed that some really nice 600k + homes here have hardwood flooring that is glued to the concrete?? i am talking reg 3/4 glued straight down, i didnt think you could do that and was surprised to see that on the pricer homes...Frankthanks for your help...We were the winners, cause we didnt know we could fail....
Waylon...
"I was born in the darkest ignorance, and my spiritual master opened my eyes with the torch of knowledge. I offer my respectful obeisances unto him."
Aciores autem morsus sunt intermissae quam retentae.
(Freedom suppressed and then regained bites with keener fangs than freedom never endangered.)
Cicero, De Officiis
" once i had woman with high hand, and i let her treat me mighty low man, she made a lover of my best freind, and now he treats me like a hasbeen..."
I've done quite a bit of stonework over the years, both natural and artificial. When using type S mortar, I usually add a little lime which will make it a bit tackier, especially with natural stone, but also with cultured stone if it is a ledgestone style that often needs support for a bit till the mortar begins to set.
Also, with cultured stone, I use a spray bottle of water to dampen (not dripping wet) the scratch coat and the back of the stone which serves to prevent the stone and the substrate from sucking water out of the mortar.
Have fun!
I laid some thin stone (not the manufactured stuff, but real Fond Du Lac Limestone from Buechel Stone). It is heavier than the manufactured stuff and also , because of how they cut off a thin layer from a bigger stone, the back side is smooth, both of these factors, I think made it just a bit more of a chalenge.
We did some on the chimney chace, plywood covered with tar paper and then metal lathe. And then some on concrete poured planters.
On the Chimney chace we put on a scratch coat, but on the planter we just stuck it on the concrete ( made sure there was no release oil lingering).
I had never done this before, but got some good advice from the folks at Buechel.
Anyway, used a 2:1 sand/mortar mix. Using type"S" mortar. I was told some like to mix their own motrtar, cause some manufacturers skimp on the mortar in their premixes.
Then for water to mix with the 2:1 sand /mortar, we used 1 part water to 2 parts of "Sonneborn Acrlyic Additive".
The important thing is to get it the right consistency, no too wet and not too dry. you want it to oze out of the joints when you stick on a stone, but not make a dribbling mess.
It took us a few trys to get it right. Yes we had some stones falling off, but it wasn't untill we applied the following technics that we got rolling with no issues.
1. Wetting the wall and the back of the stones is very improtant, we found that if the stone were in the sun, that wetting the back just before appliing the stone was iffy that they would stick. If the stone was hot and exposed to the sun all day, we needed to hose down all the stone , pretty regular, until they looked like they were not absorbing anymore water. Latter we found keeping them in the shade helped a lot. If it is a hot summer day, and the wall doesn't look wet, then spray it with water. Keep things damplooking.
2. Do wiggle the stone, just a little when you stick it on the wall, this helps termendously, but don't over do it. And we would hold it for a 5 second count, that helped alot. If it is a bigger, heavy stone, we would sometimes stick a little scrap piece of rock, that was the size of the joint, between it and the stone below it, this would relieve some of gravities effects until the mortar had time to set.
3. Give each row a chance to set before setting the stone above it.
Anyway it's been a couple of years now and we have had no problems with any of the stone work.
Good luck.
thanks, i had read about the wetting part and i got a spray bottle and wetted everything pretty good and that did help. i think need to make it a little thinner then i think it should be, it didnt ooze out like your discribing, someone suggested adding some thin set to the type s and that worked for them so i will try that..Frankwill post pics, when/if done..We were the winners, cause we didnt know we could fail....
Waylon...
"I was born in the darkest ignorance, and my spiritual master opened my eyes with the torch of knowledge. I offer my respectful obeisances unto him."
Aciores autem morsus sunt intermissae quam retentae.
(Freedom suppressed and then regained bites with keener fangs than freedom never endangered.)
Cicero, De Officiis
" once i had woman with high hand, and i let her treat me mighty low man, she made a lover of my best freind, and now he treats me like a hasbeen..."
this afternoon i bought a small bag of thinset and added it to the mix, it worked perfectly, thanks to everyone of you for your advice. Wife said, you didnt even use one curse word... :)Frank
We were the winners, cause we didnt know we could fail....
Waylon...
"I was born in the darkest ignorance, and my spiritual master opened my eyes with the torch of knowledge. I offer my respectful obeisances unto him."
Aciores autem morsus sunt intermissae quam retentae.
(Freedom suppressed and then regained bites with keener fangs than freedom never endangered.)
Cicero, De Officiis
" once i had woman with high hand, and i let her treat me mighty low man, she made a lover of my best freind, and now he treats me like a hasbeen..."
Hello again just wanted to thank everyone for there advice and help. I have one more question. I have just finished , or so i thought, and the wife thinks that the bottom of the FP, the metal part of the insert should also be covered. I did a search online for pics and it looks to me like they leave the insert uncovered. there is appx 9 inches along the bottom and 5 or so on top. My question is what do you guys think? leave it? I am planning to put some slate down for the hearth after i determine what kind of new floor we are putting down. thanks again.FrankWe were the winners, cause we didnt know we could fail....
Waylon...
"I was born in the darkest ignorance, and my spiritual master opened my eyes with the torch of knowledge. I offer my respectful obeisances unto him."
Aciores autem morsus sunt intermissae quam retentae.
(Freedom suppressed and then regained bites with keener fangs than freedom never endangered.)
Cicero, De Officiis
" once i had woman with high hand, and i let her treat me mighty low man, she made a lover of my best freind, and now he treats me like a hasbeen..."
Picture?
sorry here is what i have done so far, the area is not cleaned up yet and i have to figure out how to get the dirt off of the FP and they used some kind of silicone to stick some kind of artifical slate like material... very heavy. anyway here it is.FrankWe were the winners, cause we didnt know we could fail....
Waylon...
"I was born in the darkest ignorance, and my spiritual master opened my eyes with the torch of knowledge. I offer my respectful obeisances unto him."
Aciores autem morsus sunt intermissae quam retentae.
(Freedom suppressed and then regained bites with keener fangs than freedom never endangered.)
Cicero, De Officiis
" once i had woman with high hand, and i let her treat me mighty low man, she made a lover of my best freind, and now he treats me like a hasbeen..."
I used plastic cement for cultured stone on both cement walls and scratch coated wall; and it has stuck firm for 15 years with no problems attaching to either wall.
Just backbuttered each piece and pushed in and wiggle to set. No need to use rubber mallet as I have seen some do.
Forgot to add that I started all walls from the top down; and they were all exterior walls.
Edited 9/12/2007 10:09 pm ET by HowardM