Hello,
I’m new to the forums here and would like some advice. The house I have (built in 1976) has electrical wiring that uses the push-in wire terminals on outlets, daisychained on each circuit. I’ve been replacing them (after one outlet got warm), using 14guage pigtails, wirenutting the bundle of wires (power in, power out, and the pigtail) instead of passing power through each outlet on to the next. What do you think? Good? Bad? Polarity is verified to be correct in each case.
Thanks,
Jeremy
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Replies
The pigtails is the right thing to do.
Go one step further and use the screws on the sides and skip the push-in.
Terry
do yourself read rex caldwells book
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1561585270/qid=1143330715/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/103-1141804-8089430?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
( i got mine at the local library )
Are you using the screws on the side or stab locking them in the back again? I would not recommend the stab locking.
One thing to double check on is that the wire in the wall that you are hooking on to is 14 gauge. Your kitchen and bathroom should be 12 gauge make sure to up your wire size on your pigtails accordingly.
Twistin' with Lucy, Doin' the Watusi, Roll over on your back, I like it like that
Do that Jerk-uh,Watch me work y'all, Ow! Do it!
Buy new "backwire" outlets. They cost a coupla bucks vs 39 cents, but are much better quality, and the backwire connection (clamp the wire between two jaws and tighten the screw on it) is at least as reliable as screw terminals and a lot easier.
happy?
Edited 3/25/2006 8:28 pm by DanH
Agreed, I love those things, much easier and more positive than wrapping the wire around a terminal.
I'm thinking the wiring in the wall is 12g and I've been using 14g for the pigtails. No go considering the next outlet in line isn't daisychained directly off the previous outlet? It'd seem like trying to connect three 12g wires together would make a big lump for fiting in the outlet box.
Any 14-gauge wire in the circuit and you'd better downgrade the breaker to 15 amp.
Probably not a big deal, though not kosher.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
I can certainly change the pigtails to 12g. Better safe than sorry. Is it realistic to join three pieces of 12g wire with wirenuts though? Or is there a better coupler for that kind of thing?
Yes, three pieces is perfectly reasonable, so long as you use a nut rated for it. I have a touch of trouble with 4 and 5 is a stretch.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
Just use the feed through on the device.
"Just use the feed through on the device."
Doesn't code say you need to wire a box so removing the device does not break the circuit, and doesn't using feed thru violate this reg?
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
I think we've been over that several times. It's only a problem in a multi-circuit situation. If you "remove the device" in a single-circuit daisy chain, the string beyond loses power, so the fact that it loses neutral is not a problem.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
"It's only a problem in a multi-circuit situation."
Ahh. The light appears! The local inspector requires pigtails for all thru-wired boxes "per code" - even single-circuit runs. And the inspector's always right! Not really a big deal anyway. I kind of prefer the pigtail method, since it makes it a bit easier to stuff the recept. back in the box with less wires screwed to it - especially if they're 12s.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
>>"Doesn't code say you need to wire a box so removing the device does not break the circuit, and doesn't using feed thru violate this reg?
Applies only to the grounded conductor (i.e. neutral) of multiwire branch circuits (i.e. where more than one circuit uses the same neutral). NEC section 300.13(B).
You'd think it would also apply to the EGC (ground wire) in any type of circuit, but I can't find that.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
Check out the Gardner-Bender web site, Google it. There are massive tables of wire nut color codes and how many of what wires they're supposed to be good for. Personally, I solder and tape, which is better than using wire nuts. It also lets me run the pigtail out the end, which is more convenient for folding things back into the box.
-- J.S.
>>"Personally, I solder and tape, which is better than using wire nuts.
Uh oh. Here we go again. ;-)
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
If you use back-wired outlets, of the type mentioned above (Leviton Pro, for instance), where you insert the wire and tighten with a screw on the side, you won't need pigtails. With back-wired screw-tightened outlets there is a lot more metal contact with the wires than you would have with three 12ga wire-nutted together, plus there is no chance of the connection loosening when you push the outlet into the box as sometimes happens with pigtails. The bonus is that they are a lot easier and faster to connect than either pigtails or screw terminals and the internals are better made than the cheapies, so they will last longer.BruceT
As has been mentioned in several posts, pigtails are preferred method of wiring. You can still use the back wired outlet/devices you mentioned with screws but pigtails are still a better than direct wiring to the back of the device because your not dependent upon device to carry current for outlets and devices further down the line.
That's the way it should have been done in the first place. Rather than using the push type, one way, connectors on the back use the screws on the side of the outlet/switch and wrap the wire in the direction that the screw tightens.
Soldering circuit wiring in a house? Never heard of such a thing. I'll stick with pigtails and wirenuts :-).
Looks like the #89 GB WingGard wire nuts will accomodate 3 12g wires. Thanks for the headsup.
Yea, well, I'll bet JS uses lead-tin solder! Any real engineer would use silver solder...
Actually soldering and taping worked for decades with knob-and-tube wiring. The key is that the splice has to be made mechanically solid by twisting the wires together such that it'd be a good joint even without the solder. The solder enhances the electrical properties and protects the wire from corrosion.
Splicing the wires togeter was an art, there are dozens of styles of splices. I worked with guys who started working in the late 30's and they hated the solder pots and blowtorches, most switched to wirenuts as soon as they could.
I've dissected K&T splices that were 100 years old and they looked great. I've had wire-nutted splices fall apart when I touched them. It depends on the workmanship.
I've also seen old soldered splices that came apart, probably due to the slow migration of different metals through the alloy, resulting in crystalization.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
"I worked with guys who started working in the late 30's and they hated the solder pots and blowtorches, most switched to wirenuts as soon as they could."In some areas they were still using the hated solder pot into the early 60s. Into the early 80s there were crews where on a sunny summer day if the crew took off their shirts you could tell the senior electricians by simply spotting the burns on their upper bodies. Typically pots full of molten solder were hoisted overhead to get the joints in the ceiling boxes. If the pot was tipped or sputtered from moisture in the joint molten lead would come down onto the helper. If the helper flinched even more came down pocking scalps, ears necks and shoulders. Major accidents could have a pound or more of molten lead pouring down onto helpers unable to do more than grit their teeth and bear it.
Few helpers went long on a busy site without being by burned by molten lead, scourged by the gasoline blowtorches used to heat them or branded by contact with the hot metal ladles. It was just slightly before my time but I worked with senior electricians who wore lurid scars as a badge of honor and rank. Usually just a spot or two where hair wouldn't grow. Or a quarter-inch to dime sized spot or two on a neck or shoulder. But sometimes much worse. One guy I worked with was, decades before, holding a ladle full of solder over his head and someone ran into him. The contents came down onto his head off center and burned a swath down the scalp, over the ear, down the neck and onto this shoulder. He was missing a stripe of hair, half his ear and had thick scars down his neck, shoulder and back. Could have been worse. A senior man a second later threw a bucket of water the plasterers had on him to 'freeze' the solder and make the burns more shallow. He still almost bleed to death as the burn compromised a vein in his neck and he was out for weeks getting skin grafts.Yes, many electricians were overjoyed to see the blowtorches and solder pots retired.
Gee, I just use the Weller gun. No permanent visible injuries so far .... ;-)
-- J.S.
Heliarc.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
Well, they backstab because it's quick. Bad practice, but quick. Who needs pigtails when you can stab in and stab out. Combine that with those tiny 18ci handiboxes and there will be work down the line for someone.
Been working in McMansion wannabe homes and while there is cove and granite all over the place, there is also 14g backstabbing in the walls.
I like the spec-grade backwire outlets with 1/4" plates that capture the whole length of the stripped wire vs. a tiny spring.The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.
Toolbear, you can't stab out any more.
Code police caught up with that one.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
I know they won't let you use 12g for backstabbin' 'cause it won't fit in the hole andy more, but on one job they pigtailed 12-14 and stabbed those. At least they used pig tails. The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.
>>I know they won't let you use 12g for backstabbin' 'cause it won't fit in the hole andy more, but on one job they pigtailed 12-14 and stabbed those. At least they used pig tails.
Now that's funny.
Pigtails from 12g to 14g and then stab it? Actually doing more work to make an installation potentially dangerous. Any idea why not just put the 12g on the screw terminals and call it good?
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
@@@
Now that's funny.
Pigtails from 12g to 14g and then stab it? Actually doing more work to make an installation potentially dangerous. Any idea why not just put the 12g on the screw terminals and call it good?
I think anything to avoid making a solid connection <g>. The wire nut work was hack. Had a number of pigtails come off in my hand. I guess you are supposed to twist them more than once.
The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.
I did not want to hijack this thread. The pigtailed neutral question has me confused so I started another message titled: NEC 300.13 & Pigtails, 71796.1. I would appreciate input from those interested.