Installing new wood ceiling with rafters exposed
Cut-Throat
| Posted in General Discussion on
I have a 1800 sq. ft. Townhouse with vaulted ceilings up to 17 feet high. They have the standard Sheetrock ceilings with the dreaded popcorn texture. House was built very sturdy in 1998, with engineered trusses etc.
I would like to install a wood ceiling with open rafters and tongue and groove wood all painted white. I am not interested in any ‘Faux type’ building materials, but want real wood. Similar to this ceiling in the picture. Larger rafters would be even better.
My questions are
1.) Would my new ceiling be installed over the top of the existing sheetrock, or would the sheetrock have to be removed?
2.) What would my estimated costs be for this project? …..Within plus or minus $10 Grand would be a fine estimate.
Replies
I've nailed 2Xs parallel to the bottom chord on each side of each truss and installed T & G to that then boxed the bottom chord with 1Xs. That requires removing the drywall but would also give you the opportunity to add lights if needed. I'd be inclined to leave the drywall but scrape the texture off then add made up beams where ever you wanted. Material cost will be at least $3.00 a square foot and labor will be high due to the helght. Just off the top of my head I'd say $18,000 minimum not including paint but it could easily be more.
Just to be clear-- you have a flat (though sloped) ceiling, presumably on "scissor" trusses or some such? And you're not proposing cutting away any of the truss, you just want to provide a beamed ceiling appearance, possibly by going over the existing ceiling? Where is this located? What is the insulation/ventilation situation above the existing ceiling? Lights or heating ducts penetrating the ceiling?
The ceiling is Flat, but has various slopes and angles. No curves however.
No cutting away any of the roof structure or trusses. The most I might remove is the outside sheetrock.
Located near Minneapolis. Plenty of insulation and ventilation above existing ceiling. Not too much room above the ceiling as most of the space is taken up with very high ceilings. No heating ducts penetrating the ceiling. There are some recessed lights in the ceiling with the 'Cans', but I see those being removed and just a just a junction box mounted flush with the new ceiling.
I'll include a picture of the kitchen (Which is part of the 'Great Room') and you see the 'Cans' that hold the recessed lighting. This picture was taken during original contstruction in 1998.
You appear to have trusses on a 2-foot interval. You need to decide if you'd be happy with your "beams" at some multiple of 2 feet apart or you want them different -- if different (or simply not falling on top of the trusses) you may need to open the ceiling to install nailers.
Also, I'm not sure what the best way to attach the T&G planks would be. Nailing through drywall at 2-foot intervals would be a hair of a stretch, but might work, or you may need to install nailers at closer intervals.
Thanks for all your replies !
Having 'Beams' at 2 foot intervals would be just fine!.......I think every 4 feet would look great!
I would however Like to see some heavier wood than is shown in the Picture I first posted. I am thinking a piece of Fir at the Top of the Ceiling Like a 6" x 12" with the Sloping Boards being 2" x 10" ..... Then the standard T&G Boards for the rest of the ceiling.
Does anyone see a problem with that idea?
Here is another picture of the Great Room where a couple of Sloping Ceiling surfaces come togther.
I think 2x10 would be a bit narrow for the "beamed" look, and the 10" dimension may be a hair too much. Remember -- it's going to take away headroom.
What would you recommend ?
DanH wrote:
I think 2x10 would be a bit narrow for the "beamed" look, and the 10" dimension may be a hair too much. Remember -- it's going to take away headroom.
You may be correct !..... I am not worried at all about headroom, as I have plenty. The ceilings are really high.
Here is another picture I found, what would you guess are the dimensions of this lumber? I like the look.
Consider that the "tails" of
Consider that the "tails" of your fake rafters, at 10" high, would end just a couple of inches above the window openings in your pictures. Go to the side of the room as it is now, and measure down 10" from the ceiling joint (9.5 for the 2x10 and at least 1/2" for the T&G). The ends of the 10" rafters would actually be below that point (maybe another inch), since they run at a slant.
(In that picture I'd guess that the rafters are about 3x8. But hard to say with any certainty.)
Yes, all good points!........Thanks.
Cut
4x8 cedar beams (maybe x6)
One caution-keep the sheetrock that's there. T&G boards will leak air-keep that taped air barrier up there, build down from that.
calvin wrote:
4x8 cedar beams (maybe x6)
One caution-keep the sheetrock that's there. T&G boards will leak air-keep that taped air barrier up there, build down from that.
Yes, that is something that I had not thought of! Good Point !
Kevin
Welcome to Breaktime.
And it's our pleasure to hopefully come up with something.
That popcorn will be a pain, you plan to scrape it off or perhaps furring (less scraping)?
One more, if you paint or stain-pre coat down on the ground-backs, tongues/grooves, so when it shrinks (or perhaps expands (check the moisture content b/4 install) you won't see parts unstained/unpainted. And it's damn easier to do than up there overhead.
You can of course, spray or roll/brush out a final coat.
If you use a knotty wood like v-groove "barn" siding, expect the knots to "blead through" somewhat. The heat of the room is enough to halo them.
Since this is all paint-grade, and you are wanting to see the t&g, I'd go with a 4x6 ridge, and use 4x4 @ 48"-60" OC elsewhere.
I'd actually lay it out at 60", and jigger it to suit tha actuall conditions with the hips and valleys and flats you have in there.
Using an itty-bitty rabbet (like 1/8 x 1/8 max) where the faux beams touch the ceiling would makit it look a bit like the ceiling was inset, rather than continuous.
Going to need a boat-load of 1x6 in shiplap or boxcar siding; with a lot of fussy inverted hips--you want wood now, but, I'd price Azec in bead or shiplap just to have an option.
Thanks for your reply.
One question. Why do you recommend Azec? Isn't it more expensive and a lot heavier than wood?
Seems to me ...
Seems to me you just need to nail up your board and attach your rafters to the undersiide of the trusses afterwards. You are supposed to have drywall under a wood ceiling anyway, so you are half way home. Some one said nailing at 24 OC may be too wide. I would not think so, but don't know.
I would leave the drywall there
for the reason Cal mentioned... it is an excellent air barrier and you will be sorry without it, when the house is suddenly a lot colder.
I think you can add 2x6 tongue and groove with nailing every 24"--it will lay flat and fit tight, assuming you choose straight material. I would be hesitant to install 1x tongue and groove without more places to nail it, but it might work, again depending on the material. You will probably need to blind-fasten through the tongues using long trimhead screws, and you will probably need to pre-drill.
Once the entire lid is covered in T&G, you can then install faux rafters every 48". You will need to devise some way to connect them to the structural rafters above, again probably using long screws, and maybe plugs to cover.
There will be some careful work needed at the walls--drywall finishing, painting--to make the rafters look like they grew there.
So, basically, all you need are a couple of excellent carpenters and the ability to write a sizable check.
Of course, 2x T&G will push
Of course, 2x T&G will push the ceiling down another 3/4 inch.
Rafters
davidmeiland wrote:
Once the entire lid is covered in T&G, you can then install faux rafters every 48". You will need to devise some way to connect them to the structural rafters above, again probably using long screws, and maybe plugs to cover.
There will be some careful work needed at the walls--drywall finishing, painting--to make the rafters look like they grew there.
Another excellent point that I had not thought of. As far as the rafters meeting at the walls, what technique could be used to make them look like they 'Grew there'?...
Also I live in an area of the country (Minneapolis) that has extreme weather conditions. Very high Humidity in the summer and very dry conditions in the winter. I have heard from Furniture makers that this area is the toughest for furniture to live in.
I have no problem with the rafters cracking and checking, but if they pulled away from the walls a couple inches, this would not look good. I am thinking that there is a way to accomodate for this shrinking. Not stop it entirely, but plan for this where it joions the wall, so it won't look bad. Ideas on this ? Maybe attaching another board on the wall for the rafters to attach to, similar to this Picture would help ?
Probably the best approach would be to install trim around the rafter tails. And you may actually want to somehow install the rafters so they can slide a bit, or you risk getting something akin to "truss uplift" (only probably more like "downlift").
kevin
One way to help with wood shrinkage is to install in a condition that promotes stability. Not too high of a moisture content would be the key. If you use full size timbers, checking the MC is a must-as they are often air dried (to limit quick drastic checking). Over time they will reach an equalibrium-in the surroundings that they are drying in.
I'm going to see if I can get Jim "crazylegs" Blodgett to stop by here and give you an opinion-he knows way more about milling/drying/timbers than I.
The idea of sleeving a trim at the ends is good-if they shrink in length which won't be much. They will shrink in width. If you trim at the ends, fasten the trim to each other and to the wall/ridge. This way the timber won't pull away the trim with it-but slide within the trim pcs.
or
join up individual boards that will be less prone to checks/shrinkage and you can find dryer stock to work with.
or
cut the sheetrock out/install solid blocking at the end if necessary. Mount the timbers or built up box beams and then fill in with patching sheetrock. Get close-within an eighth to qtr. inch of the wood. Get "L-bead" from your drywall supply, mount it according to instructions and tape/finish the drywall to that. Using an elastomeric caulk for fine tuning won't hurt.
Use glue for all joining, lock mitres if you use boards and want to 45 the edges for joining, paint/prime/seal all sides b/4 install.
Keep the humidity up at least in the 35/40 % range in the rooms in the winter-remember the dry heat will concentrate itself up in that vaulted ceiling. Air movement might help keep it even-temp and humidity.
edit: If you want the smooth painted look, think about one of the MDF trim boards or perhaps the primed Paulonia-both available in 16 ft lengths. The MDF-heavy and could be difficult to work with. The Paulonia-primed all sides and light-easy to work with.
calvin wrote:
edit: If you want the smooth painted look, think about one of the MDF trim boards or perhaps the primed Paulonia-both available in 16 ft lengths. The MDF-heavy and could be difficult to work with. The Paulonia-primed all sides and light-easy to work with.
Actually, I am going for the Rustic Look. Cottage like. So, I won't mind wood with dents, cracks etc. Also, If I decide to use Heavy Screws and Bolts to attach these rafters, I will not have to worry about Plugging the Holes. I will want the Hardware to Show.
Kevin
Here you go-a bit rustic ceiling and walls (when you get to 'em) #2 white pine milled up ship lap. Stained with an opaque off white stain (a bit of green...............might have been celery green).
http://www.quittintime.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/12865/page/0/fpart/1/vc/1
That is more like camping.....
calvin wrote:
Here you go-a bit rustic ceiling and walls (when you get to 'em) #2 white pine milled up ship lap. Stained with an opaque off white stain (a bit of green...............might have been celery green).
http://www.quittintime.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/12865/page/0/fpart/1/vc/1
A bit Rustic......Not that much!
Well, I had alot to work with.
Did you happen to make out the slight knot halo-ing on the ceiling?
Your Best Guess
davidmeiland wrote:
and the ability to write a sizable check.
What's your best SWAG guess on the Size of this check?.......
I can hardly guess at something like that
but I dunno, $10-20 per square foot?
That's a significant carpentry job. Normally we build that stuff from the bottom up.
Oh, and I would not worry much about the rafters shrinking away from the walls. Wood shrinks in width, very little in length.
Oh, and I would not worry much about the rafters shrinking away from the walls. Wood shrinks in width, very little in length.
It only takes "very little" to turn into a quarter inch or more, producing an ugly gap.
All the other comments have given you much food for thought. I would only add two points:
1. I cannot imagine that youd have appreciable or noticable sagging of 1x6 t&g or shiplap paneling if nailed at 24" cc. Going to 2x material will drive your costs up for no good reason. If there's any doubt, simply do a mockup with some scrap lumber and see what the 1x material does.
2. You are going to be putting a fair amount of additional dead load to the bottom chords of those trusses. Someone ought to run the numbers to determine if that added load will be OK or not.
1x vs 2x
The reason I would consider 2x is that it is likely to look a lot flatter, whereas 1x is more likely to cup. It depends a lot on the species and particular material he uses. Typical knotty softwood is going to be a bitch. VG fir would be fine in 1x. I have done a lot of work for a customer who likes rustic 1x6 pine panelling on walls and ceilings, and it is a real challenge to make nice looking woodwork out of stuff like that. Just my opinion.
Spacing the rafters
Plan your rafter spacing, because if it is too close it may look busy. The wider the rafter, the more space you will need between rafters to get the best look. We have a 20 foot long room with two rafters (dividing the room into thirds) and the rafters have a cross-section of a about 8"x8", and it fits the room perfectly.
Thanks for your reply
I think I have decided on 2x6 rafters spaced about 4 feet apart. That would be every other rafter that is currently under the dry wall. And yes, I will do extensive Planning before starting this project. I will probably end up building a small model to see how it looks.
I am going for a look similar to this picture.