I need to attach/apply some plastic laminate (like Formica, WilsonArt, etc.) onto a piece of MDF. Questions:
1. Using contact cement, the backside of the laminate is not going to absorb much of the cement, but the MDF will to some degree (I assume). Do I need to seal the MDF before I put on the cement? Or do I just apply to both surfaces?
2. How “thick” should the cement be on each of the two surfaces?
3. What question am I not asking that I should (and probably don’t know that I don’t know to ask?
4. Any online links you can point me to?
Thanks,
Alan – planesaw
Replies
most of the major glue manufacturers have websites with lots of good info
however:
use a good quality latex contact cement applied with a short nap roller with thin coverage
one coat on the laminate is plenty and two on the mdf
allow to dry completely(till clear)
place spacers over the mdf and place the laminate over it and position carefully
venetian blind slats make great spacers
pull the spacers out a few at a time and press down the laminate
Al
Having just completed a Kitachen remodel in which I built the counter tops from scratch (my first time) I have some definite opinions.
1. Use high density fiber board, as it is stiffer and smoother.
2. Use Formica brand adhesive. I use three different kinds, and Formica was the most adhesive, and easiest to handle. The stuff I did with Weldwood Contact adhesive never did stick well.
3. Apply the adhesive by pouring it onto the fiber board and spread it with a squeegy which you can get from an auto paint store.
4. Use bond-o on the joints between pieces of fiberboard.
5. Make sure you have at least two coats of adhesive on the FB, and a heavy coat on the laminate. If you can clearly see the texture on the underside of the laminate it isn't thick enough.
6. Don't wait too long between applying the adhesive and putting the parts together.
7. Be very careful with venetian blind slats. If they are plastic they can adhere and break. You are then screwed. If it does happen, consider the laminate trash, and use a hair dryer and a large drywall knive to get the parts apart.
8 Be prepared to use a hot iron and your roller for places that haven't adhered well due to your inexperience.
Good Luck, it ain't as easy as the books say.
STef
Alan,
I've made a few so I'll chime in.....
I like two coats of adhesive on both surfaces. Not too heavy but not pressing hard thin coats either.
DO NOT let your two surfaces touch each other before they are in place. You CAN NOT take them apart unless you use a heat gun and then at the risk of still damaging your laminate.
I stick when the adhesive is tacky not sticky. That's a pretty good rule to follow. If it's too wet, it won't stick well. If it's too dry, it won't stick well. Again, both surfaces, tacky not sticky.
I have used dowel rods, old sheets, and cardboard for spaces. Just make sure it's clean.
When putting your two surfaces together, it is helpful to have a partner. I like to work from one end and kind of "roll out" the laminate on the substrate. As the laminate is "rolled out", I use firm hand pressure on the top of the laminate at the joint of the roll. This prevents air bubbles from getting trapped in the middle of the laminate field. If you do not work your way across the field in a careful manner you will get air bubbles and they will crack out over time. Once you get an air bubble in the middle of the field, it is very difficult if not impossible to get it out.
Good luck
Rob Kress
Thanks everyone for the advice. I am thankful for forums like this so I can get some good advice based on experience. Will check on the Formica brand cement. Also, good advice on two people putting the laminate on and rolling it out properly.
Anyone ever hear of a spray adhesive? Have heard it might work better than the contact cement.
Alan - planesaw
ive tried spray adhesive, but the areosol cans are very expensive and the solvent is nasty stuff, commercial spray equipment is available but not suitable for one job.
personally, id use lepages latex based contact cement
if you leave it too long to dry, warm the laminate with a heat gun to reactivate the bondingcaulking is not a piece of trim
Yes, I checked the spray and its price. In a commercial application, it is probably a good idea. I am more inclined to stay with what I know (contact cement) since I am only doing this once (hopefully).
Love your line about caulk not being a piece of trim.
Alan - planesaw
Couple of things I can pass along, first check and check again that your back edge is completely staight(or will be covered by something) if it is inaccessible to routing. I like using the water based contact cement, it makes for much easier cleanup, the smell is alot less strong, and durability has been great. Paint sticks or shims work great as spacers, I think I used one every 10inches or so, kind of eyeball it. Use alittle bit of cutting oil on your router when trimming the edges to keep from scratching your laminate.
-Ray
As Rob suggested, find a helper and practise the placement of the p-lam a couple of times while dry. You would be amazed at how tricky it cane be to move the stuff around.
Also, don't be stingy on the overhanging laminate that you will rout off. A good half inch is minimum.
Use a roller or a cork faced hand sized board to 'roll' out the laminate. I prefer to go from the middle out in all directions, instead of from one end as was suggested. I remove the middle spacers first and move towards the end lightly rollong as I go. Roll harder and everywhere after spacers are out. Shelf supports work well as spacers as well.
When using the "J" roller be xtra careful not to roll over the overhang edge too hard. Go easy then rout it off, re-roll.
Knowone has mentioned edging yet.
What are you using there, p-lam, wood, perma-edge, synthetic stone? Your choice in edge banding will determine the order of building the top and applying the p-lam.
Dave
That is a good point. I like colorcore when applicable. My last "big" job was woodgrain wilsonart...ugghhh...theh brown seam lines and grain continuity was enough to hold me back from doing that again for a long time. Hair washing stations for a beauty salon..wrapped all the doors as well.
I do a lot of Wilson Art Perm-A-Edge tops and have started using the color core material on them for the same reason. I don't like that phenolic line either.
Dave
Off the subject a bit..the wife wanted (actually I talked her into wanting) a backer behind the stove top that was "Metallic" I'm thinkin Stanless steel, she copper..I know there are laminates that are metallic appearing and proceed to pull out the chain of chips I would show to a customer..we chose a happy medium sort of a bronze look...checked out the price, and it seemed really high..I forget exactly what the cost was..(we never did do it, sold the house) so I called a local sheet metal shop..solid Stainless was cheaper, copper was cheaper..I was floored.
I was real glad I checked before I just quoted a guess to a payin customer, I have done that..now, I always check current prices before I guess..live and learn.
Dave,
The router table top is 24 x 30 MDF, inch & a quarter thick (3/4 plus 1/2), then edged with inch & a quarter by one inch cherry (I happen to have a bit of cherry). The laminate is strictly on the top. I mitred the corners of the cherry, then used biscuits to hold it to the table top.
Then I put the laminate on. Went around it with the router and a straight bit (with bearing). Then I went back around it with a 1/4" round over bit.
I have now cut out the hole for the router plate to sit in. Tomorrow I'll cut a 1" groove for a track for the mitre to slide in. The cabinet and drawers are built. Just been a long time since I have put on laminate that I thought I would ask for advice.
It is now on and looks great. Plus, I got a lot of good advice and updates.
Thanks,
Alan - planesaw
Sounds like your router table is from The New Yankee WorkShop plans. I built mine about four years ago.
Dave
I would like to ask another related question. I have done a number of laminate counter tops, and my biggest problem has been with the router bit in the laminate trimmer removing the laminate surface on the top edge of the edge band when trimming the top, leaving a black gouge which is immediately noticable by the customer. This almost always means replacing the edge band. I have tried putting masking tape on the edge band before trimming the top, which helps to some extent, but whatever I am doing is not perfect. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
I coat the edge with paste wax to lubricate the laminate, this keeps the bit from burning the black line in.
i've done many counters some in a real lam shop hith a sprayer and som in the field with a roller i allways use wilsonart glue and to roll wilsonart makes a roller(hd sells it around here)if your going to edge band the front do that first then rout the other tools you will need are a good sharp file and a good sanding block(i make mine out of belt sander belt and a pice of ply cut to fit)on the edges you want to leave the laminate just as high as the glue for the top wich is just enough for you to sfeel as you run your finger over it.then i do the top as for the bit scoring the edges you should use a high quality flush cut bit with a bearing and you will find that the bearings gum up with glue and i just replace them the othe thing ive been doing is a wooden edge that i laminate over and then chamfer the edge wich seems much more durable. the other items to have are rollers (1/2 or 3/4 conduit) and laquer thiner wich we put in a soda bottle with just a small hole in the top if you stick your laminate wrong you can spray the thinner on the stuck surfaces and slowly peel them apart when the thinner drys off you can reglue(sorry for the speeling)
noah
do not extend the cutting edges TOO deep..and keep the router base AS FLAT AS YOU CAN..any tipping and gouge city, I hope yer useing a bearing guide not a solid pilot bit. If it is a solid pilot, move quick or it will burn.
MUST HAVE a bit with a bearing on it. That way there should be no damage to the laminate. If you don't have one, get a good quality one.
Alan - planesaw
The most important thing about spacers for laminate work is they must be absolutly perfectly clean & splinter free !On a hill by the harbour
i use venetian blind slats as spacers all the time, cheap, clean easy to use
I have built well over a hundred custom tops, and stopped buying bearing bits years ago. They gum up with glue eventually and you eiter replace the bearing at nearly the cost of a new bit or hope you got it clean enough to not freeze up and burn the edge. I use a solid pilot bit that is sharp, clean all exposed glue from the edges and lubricate the edge. On the very rare occassion I get a burn, it is ussually from operator error, not a pilot bit freezing up. Solid bits are less than half the cost of pilot bearing bits, so I figure a new one into the cost of every top I build.
Dave
I do use a bearing bit when trimming laminate, and still get the over cut on the edge band. I must be tipping the laminate trimmer slightly from time to time which would account for the damage.
Well, hopefully it is as easy to correct as double checking how you hold the router. What you were describing sounded exactly like using a bit without a bearing. Is it possible your bearing is not turning freely.
Good luck!
Alan - planesaw
All good advice from the gang. I tried to use mini blind leftovers and they worked but would not try it again, it got scarry at times. I now have a stash of 3/8 square dowels where I cut some rabbets for some shelves. Get a good J roller, worth the few $. I used the Formica brand with roller and have no regrets what-so-ever. I added 1/4 luan over the existing plywood top substrate.