I looked briefly today at a brick house that the Penobscot Marine Museum will be renovating.
I won’t be inside until Tues. but here are some exterior shots of a collapsing brick gable end.
They want to remove the roof- slates,sheathing and then re-structure it. If the budget allows the slates will be reinstalled.
Check out the unusual detail on the rakes.
The Sperry Instruments wire tracer beeps and flashes when it locates wires behind drywall and finishes.
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Replies
A few more shots of this house
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That's gorgeous. I've seen similiar details but only with one step not three.
Your closer shots of this end show failing ocurring somewhat diagonall starting at the top left of the window and coming out the bottom righ on into the roof below.
Has the cause been identified and a remedy engineered?
Thaks fo sharing the pics.
Eric
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Eric,
They have an arch. and SE on board already- they're looking for my input on the slate removal and re- install.
I'll be meeting the construction manager on Tues. so I'll know more then--- and have more pictures to share.
Thanks for looking.
Walter
How did they ever corbel it out that far? Iron straps on top? Or built in?Jeff
Jeff,
I've got to meet the construction manager today at 1. It's snowing here this morning so I'm not sure if I can get more exterior shots, but I expect to get inside to take problem shots .
Pretty unusual. I've only seen that one piece step/counter flashing detail once before.http://grantlogan.net/
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete (I am so in love with myself) Draganic
Grant,
My mason friend was there with me on the way to lunch that day.
He'd never seen and couldn't figure how the corbelling went out so far.
More pictures later today.
Walter I bet I can re roof for $30 a square !!!
Would that be $30 a square...foot?
Rev,
It was in reference to another thread where asphalt was being gunned down for $30 a square.
Haven't done pricing here yet- too many variables as to what to quote on.
Stay tuned as it progresses.
What percent of slate can you get off without breaking? "Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Eddie,
Haven't tried these yet, but they're small in size so more can be removed with less chance of breakage than a slate twice its size.
Typically 70% plus will be safely removed and deemed suitable for relaying.
These are really small so install labor is more than if they were larger though.
Walter
A house I am working on now has a neat slate detail.
The original prints, show the slate sizes and thickness's by the course.
Like courses 1-6 to be 12x24 x 3/4"
7-16 to be 9x 24 x 1/2"
16-25 10x24 x 3/8th"
Not exactly the actual widths they show on the print, I am going from memory..but what struck me as new was the various thickness. Some are a full inch thick! And at the ridge they get back to more normal 1/4" or 3/8th that I am familiar with.
When Dale and I were patching in around the dormers and broke a 26'' WIDE slate, we were pretty damm happy they had some leftover slate in the basement..I mean some of them were more like patio stepping stones.
I'da hated to be the toter-upper back in 1915 with those..I'd venture to guess the house is 50-60 square.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Those types of graduated roofs are not used here in Me. In fact most are all same width slates as well.
The roof we'll be installing on the house in " waiting for a crane" thread will be a random width slate , but all the same length.
Slate will be here on March 1 or so.
Walter
Graduated slate (common here at the University) may have been part of the problem as roof covering weight heads toward 3,000 lbs/square IIRC - also the fact that header coursing is every 10 courses PLUS (as opposed to common bond at every sixth course) may definiitely be contributing ... along with soft mortar (which of course is necessary - soft bricks).
Jeff
Jeff,
This roof is all one size quarter inch thick nominal slates likely 750- 800 lbs per sq.
The structure has been compromised inside leading to spreading.
Walter
My bad - I thought Sphere's post was yours (re: graduated slate).
Jeff
I broke ground last week on a new building in Williamsburg, and it will have slate. We got the base bid and an alternate for the slate. Base was for random width slate, alternate was for uniform width. Difference for a 2500 sf building was about $6k less for uniform width."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Eddie,
Was the extra cost due to increased labor or more expense for the slate?
What slate will you be using? Buckingham?
Increase was material cost. They said that standard is for uniform width, if we wanted random width then they would take regular slate and cut it to look random. Don't know what brand yet."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Eddie,
They could order several widths directly from the quarry- using no onsite labor.
Are they just pulling your legn here?
Walter
Dang, that's a good idea. I'll check."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Eddie,
I thought when I visited Williamsburg last Summer that most of the slate roofs I saw were same width slate- am I wrong on this?
Where the slates origininate from will make a difference in their useful life.
Walter
hey, I'm just following the specs that my archy created. Surely you don't think the archy failed to completely investigate the neighborhood? Surely you're not implying that the archy could have made a mistake! Tell the truth, I have not looked closely at the roofs. I'll do that this week."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Eddie,
I don't know that it's wrong to not copy what the norm for the area is.
In fact I was there just once so my recollection may be off base.
I'll be laying a R/W slate from Vermont and will document it here in "waiting for a crane " thread in the photo gallery.
That's not the norm for our area, but thats what the customer wanted for a look.
Walter
The specs call for Buckingham Virginia blue-black slate, 3/16" x 18" with 3" head lap. I looked at the map and the quarry is only about 25-30 miles from my house."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Eddie,
I thought you might be speccing Buckingham since it is so close.
Check it out carefully though-- I've heard that the new Buckingham has problems with quality control. Several reports on other sites about their slates cupping and not laying flat. The veins are the issue-- they don't cup from forces after their manufacture.
Are you still wanting a R/W slate as well?
Walter
I'll be on site tomorrow and will look at the neighborhood roofs to see if most of them are constant width. Since it costs less, and since the budget is really, really tight on this one, we will go with the less expensive option.
How long does it take for the slate to cup? Will it be noticeable when delivered?
And what are the other sites where can I read about the cupping?
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Edited 2/11/2008 10:46 am ET by FastEddie
Eddie,
The slate doesn't cup from weathering or time- but from poor quality slate to begin with--- bedding planes aren't totally flat from eons ago.
Try Slateroofcentral.com and either ask there about Buckingham or look at past threads.
I haven't used any thats been quarried recently but have heard some stories.
Walter
Pic 011 shows what look to be a serious roof settling problem to the left of the chimney. It appears as if the slate and the flashing is actually being pulled off the roof deck by the chimney. Never saw anything like that before.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Dove,
I'll be inside today to see whats the cause of this settling- I think they removed part of the lower gable wall to get ento the ell attic area.
We went around back today to see more exterior damage . The corner of this brick structure looks blown out badly.
The inside pictures are just above this area where ell and main house meet.
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Along with the rake detail, it's a peculiar bond pattern, isn't it? You can count a lot of courses before you get a header (right terminology?) course. I was even wondering for a bit if it was a veneer.
Is this a regional pattern, do you know?
I don't think it's a veneer, but I've never seen it before either.
The masons will be extensively rebuilding that gable wall so I'll be sure to post more pictures as it progresses.
Walter
theslateman, extraordinary corbelling!!!
Most brick outfits (Glen-Garry, Belden) will make a corbelling brick that is set in a very special steel frame but it is very expensive. Seen that triple only once before and never thought to see it again. I envy you the project.
Your SE is going to have his work cut out for him. I saw three distinct areas of brick damage that has to be from the structure under it. Some of that metal flashing is, ahem, a bit weak. Going to be finding a lot of nasties under that slate. More's the pity as that is a very formal home. I noticed that there is a quarry stone base aroung the entire place and brick from there up and then the corner columns have base and capitals. Wow! Now THAT'S brick work!
Do you know the age of the house? Reason I ask is that it appears that the brick was locally made and by hand. If it is then it is much more porous than anything available now. And....from the looks of some of the repairs a "modern" mortar was used to patch some cracks(from your inside shots). That really accelerates the brick deterioration. (Managed to save an 1881 place with similar but less severe damage).
Definitely keep the pictures coming.
ciao, ted
Ted,
Not sure of the homes age but guessing 1830 ish.
The roof has definately exacerbated the structural issues.
I'll definately keep posting as work proceeds.
Walter
the look is cool , glad its not mine.