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Billions of U.S. tax dollars taken from undocumented workers’ wages up for grabs
By MARK STEVENSON
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
(Original publication: August 31, 2004)
MEXICO CITY — For the 14 years he worked as an undocumented migrant in the United States, Carmelo Rivera saw up to $30 deducted each week from the $300 to $500 he earned as a vineyard worker. The deductions were supposed to pay for his retirement.
But like millions of other Mexicans who worked under false Social Security numbers, he’s unlikely ever to see a penny of it.
In fact, if a group of U.S. Congressmen has their way, undocumented migrants would be permanently barred from ever seeking to reclaim tens of billions they paid into Social Security. Instead, the money will go to fund American citizens’ retirement.
Neither migrants nor their government appear to be fighting the issue, despite what’s at stake: a little-known Social Security account called the “earnings suspense file,” which grows at a rate of about $6 billion a year and now stands at about $376 billion.
The account is a sort of catchall for mismatched names and numbers, but it is funded mostly by undocumented migrants, many of whom don’t know the money exists.
Some see it as the price of working in America.
“People work under made-up (Social Security) numbers because they don’t have any choice,” said Rivera, 34, of southern Oaxaca state. As for the lost funds — the only retirement savings for him and his wife — “that’s just something you take in stride. It’s part of the cost of the rules they have.”
Many migrants are unaware they can get credit for past contributions, even if made under false numbers, if they later get legal residency and present receipts or pay stubs.
“It’s not very common, and it is not necessarily very easy,” said Mark Hinkle, a spokesman for the Social Security Administration in Washington. Juan Jose Nino Tejedor, who heads the migrant affairs office for the Mexican state of Veracruz, says he doesn’t know of a single case.
Some migrants like Rivera are afraid of being punished if they admit they worked illegally. “We try to have as little contact with the authorities in the United States as possible,” he said.
Hinkle says privacy rules bar his agency from reporting past visa violations to police. But some workers are using both false names and numbers, making it virtually impossible to ever prove a claim.
As difficult as the process already is, some lawmakers want to make sure no illegal migrants ever receive any Social Security. A bill submitted to the House last year by Rep. Dana Rohrabacher, a California Republican, would “forbid any Social Security credits for illegal aliens or work (done) in violation of the terms of a visa.”
The wages of undocumented workers are “illegitimate earnings, and whether some of that money is going into the suspense file is basically irrelevant,” said Jack Martin of the Federation for American Immigration Reform, FAIR.
Dan Griswold of the Cato Institute in Washington, a non-profit public policy research foundation that has worked to promote Social Security privatization, notes that “these people pay into the system, and few ultimately collect anything. These are some of the lowest-paid workers. They deserve to receive some kind of benefit from their contributions.”
Griswold notes the migrants’ payments are “gravy for Social Security” because the money from the suspense file is eventually rolled into the agency’s general fund — where it helps finance pensions for American citizens.
Some funds wind up in the suspense file due to the misspelling of U.S. citizens’ names, or other administrative errors.
But migrants appear to be the largest contributors by far. Some of the last estimates on the amount paid into Social Security by undocumented workers were produced in 1994 by the Washington-based Urban Institute, an economic and social policy research organization.
At the time, the amount was estimated at about $2.7 billion a year when there were about 5 million undocumented migrants. But researcher Jeffrey Passel estimates the migrant number has doubled.
Assuming, as Passel’s studies did, that about half of them work on the books, even at minimum wage their contributions would now total at least $3.35 billion annually. That would be a little more than one-half of 1 percent of the $533.5 billion collected in Social Security tax payments in 2003.
Supporters of the ban say that when undocumented workers claim lost years of payments, they also build up more qualifying time for a pension, something that could add millions of low-paid workers to Social Security and add to projected Social Security shortfalls because low-paid workers cost the system more.
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Replies
Thanks for the article. It's sleazy for these people to not get the benefit of those deductions from their paychecks, legal or illegal. In effect they are being taken advantage of by our government. Just plain sleazy. I printed the article and plan to send it tto Florida's senators and representatives to get more information.
Sonny
sonny, sleazy is when some hotel owner around here deducts the cleaning illegals here, and they didn't even fill out a w-2, ficticious number or not.
They can't say anything for fear of deportation.
theft.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I stand corrected. Theft it is.
Our government bean counters must be getting slow in their old age. They haven't taken advantage of that cash cow to its fullest extent.
If the wages earned by illegals are termed "illegal wages" and SS payments can be denied for that reason, then the business expense incurred by a company paying these "illegal wages" must therefore be denied and the full tax paid on the income.
Excellent idea.
Sonny, it plain warms my heart when we agree on something.
What the!!!!!
How in the heck do I delete that post?
Honest, I concur. All foundations, negotiations, and diplomatic efforts for that matter, start with commonalities first.. The length of the table just shrunk a little more. I might add - I'm glad. We got "real" enemies to contend with.
In effect they are being taken advantage of by our government.
WTF....They enter the US illegally, commit perjury by filing a false W-4 and you feel they are being taken advantage of? GIVE ME A BREAK!You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv
If I find that someone has broken into my home, I should either 1) kick him out or 2) call the police. I should not take from him, part of the money he makes from Manpower each day. To do the latter is, to use one of my favorite terms - not fair. Nor is it right. One should NEVER take advantage of someone else's bad judgment, character deficiency or weakness. Punish criminals, but don’t take advantage of them. As far as I’m concerned, that’s immoral. Even prison chain gangs exemplify punishment, not taking adavantage of their capacity as prisoners.
How about drug dealers? Should we take advantage of them? How about Enron CEO? should we take advantage of him?You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv
Sonny,
I have to disagree - these people take much more from the system than they put in. While they may be losing a bit to SS, they are not paying income taxes, and they are not paying their enormous bills for emergency room service in the hospitals. That money far outweighs the little bit that is collected by the SSA. Furthermore, because these people are in fact committing a crime when they work illegally in this country, I think this money should be treated as any seized assets from a criminal activity. When assets are seized from a drug dealer they become the property of the government. Likewise when assets (in this case the 7.5% that the government manages to squeeze out of the few wages that aren't being paid under the table in cash) are seized from an illegal alien, they too become property of the government. This money should be seized as it is obviously related to the crime being committed (their wages are monies paid for illegal activities).
In fact, we should seize ALL assets bought in the U.S. when illegals are discovered - they are purchased with ill-gotten gains and should go to the millions of poverty stricken American citizens who can't compete in the job market with with illegals because they have to actually pay taxes. I could work for 40% less (federal, state, county, city, SS, and Medicare taxes) and still maintain my current lifestyle if I was working illegally.
I'm with you, aimless. Illegals don't contribute their fair share toward the society they've stolen their way into, and the people who knowingly employ them are benefitting from the proceeds of this crime- they too are tax cheats, getting a free ride off the honest people in the system who pay their fair share. Illegal immigrants should be sent packing and any money they garner while they're here should be confiscated as the proceeds of crime. Money contributed to the government in the commission of a fraud (i.e. contributed to phony social security numbers) is certainly money the government can keep. If we need people to fill jobs that are otherwise going unfilled, we should increase LEGAL immigration.
Considering this post of your's, it's easy to agree with you.
But I'd have a problem.
1. We do not encourage drug dealers.
2. We do not (most of us) want drug dealers.
3. The serve not business practical purpose.
4. We don't wait aroud waiting for them to sell something so we can quickly grab their assets.
5. They're not here to make a better life for their families.
6. IMO, drug dealers are not people, but instead, parasites.
I don't think illegals should be allowed entry to America, much less encouraged as they are, embraced as they are, given opportunites our own citizens don't get, and more.
But I also don't think they should be the victims ( and you know I hate that word as it's typically applied) of government theft. Arrest and procecute them and send them back - all of them that are caught.
As for them stealing jobs, I'd love to have legal employees, Mexicans or WASPs, that work as hard, show up on time, and actually show appreciation for being given the opportunity to stake out their own piece of the American pie.
These people remind me of when my Dad cme her fro mGreece. While being asked by his first employer how much he wanted per hour, my Dad said: "Let me work for you for a week, and pay me whatever you think I'm worth.
It's called being humble, something quickly being lost in our country, and is being replaced by arrogance..
I don't steal from anyone and will never rationalize doing so.
much less encouraged as they are, embraced as they are, given opportunites our own citizens don't get, and more.
You're the one that's encouraging them! Giving them jobs, sticking up for them when they are being "taken advantage of".
There her illegally and thats it! Those who play must pay.You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv
Sonny,
I don't follow your logic:
"1. We do not encourage drug dealers. " Nor do we encourage illegal aliens, so what is your point here?
"2. We do not (most of us) want drug dealers. " Nor do we (most of us) want illegal aliens. NAFTA was passed to stem the flood from Mexico because we don't want them.
"3. The serve not business practical purpose. " Illegals undermine the law-abiding businesses of this country, so they serve to hurt business - is that a practical purpose?
"4. We don't wait aroud waiting for them to sell something so we can quickly grab their assets. " Huh? We don't do that with illegals either.
"5. They're not here to make a better life for their families. " Sure they are, it's just that Drug Dealers want a better life at the expense of society.
"6. IMO, drug dealers are not people, but instead, parasites. " I think illegal aliens are parasites as well. They are a major contributing factor to escalating health care costs - using the ER for all medical needs (even a cold) and skipping out on the bill. Now to me, that is stealing. They take jobs that poor, hardworking, legal immigrants want.
Again, I don't think that seizing an asset that is a direct part of the commission of a crime is stealing. The money paid to illegal aliens and collected by the SSA is being collected because they are using a fake SS number. They are not only working illegally, they are usually committing identity theft by using a valid SS number (which is why it goes through the system at all). Do you really think that identity thieves should get to keep the money they obtain through fraud? And furthermore, in 20 years when said deadbeat retires to live on illegally obtained benefits, I will still be working until I'm 70 to pay for those losers. They want benefits from an already broken system.
Sure, they work hard. But so do LEGAL immigrants - it is the nature of people who are trying to make a new life to work hard. Illegal immigrants are often competing with these hardworking folk who got here the legal way - that is who they are stealing jobs from. It's not the 17yo punk whose great great granddad came over on the Mayflower, it's the recent immigrant from Bosnia whose entire family scrimped and saved to send one person over to make a better life. And because that guy is here legally, he has to pay taxes, and he has to be willing to work for 32% less than he should because illegal immigrants are undercutting the wage base. So, in effect, he is making 60% less income than the illegal criminal he is working next to(lower wages plus the government cut), in spite of the fact that he is a hard worker trying to make a better life for his family, and maybe, someday, get them out of an environment where his daughters get raped by soldiers and his sons shot in the back of the head. Doesn't that guy deserve the job as much or more than an illegal alien?
Sonny,
>>I don't think illegals should be allowed entry to America, much less encouraged as they are, embraced as they are, given opportunites our own citizens don't get, and more.
I couldn't agree more.
>>But I also don't think they should be the victims ( and you know I hate that word as it's typically applied) of government theft.
Sonny, you are losing me here. They VOLUNTARILY provided fraudulent information (ss#). How does that make them a victim? Should there be a little box to check on the w2 for made up ss#, would you like to get your money back if this # is fraudulent? Responsibility for their own actions of KNOWINGLY providing false information would make them victims of ther own actions only.
>>Arrest and procecute them and send them back - all of them that are caught.
Good I agree. But don't give them their contributions back, no way, no how.
>>As for them stealing jobs, I'd love to have legal employees, Mexicans or WASPs, that work as hard, show up on time, and actually show appreciation for being given the opportunity to stake out their own piece of the American pie.
>>These people remind me of when my Dad cme her fro mGreece. While being asked by his first employer how much he wanted per hour, my Dad said: "Let me work for you for a week, and pay me whatever you think I'm worth.
Sonny, I can't believe your Dad worked illegally, or supplied fraudulent information to get a job.
If he did, he did it out of shear desperation to feed his family and if so, only for a short period of time. That is a big difference from what is going on here.
>>It's called being humble, something quickly being lost in our country, and is being replaced by arrogance..
Humble would enter the country LEGALLY and assimilate. Learn the language and become an AMERICAN CITIZEN. File truthfull information and tow the line to take care of their family in an HONORABLE fashion. Like your Dad and my grandparents did. With honor and dignity.
I have no problem with immigrants, hispanic or otherwise. We all know they work their butts off, but they also take advantage of everything we offer them which is fine......as long as they are IN THE SYSTEM. No bs off the books and fake #'s and id's and cash this and cash that, send my money home to my family. In your father's day, or my grandparents day, they took a big risk to come here and SETTLE. TO BECOME CITIZENS and become a part of this great country. Not to live in the shadows and sneak around the corners. Work for 20 years or so and disappear.
So they left their contributions behind. Oh well, tough shlt amigo! You want it back?? Come and ask for it. This is provided for. Go back and read the article. If they want it they can try to get it back. Good Luck!!
Sonny, I've been reading your business posts here for a long time, and boy, I can't think of alot of other people who know what they are talking about like you do. But where the heck you come from defending an illegals right to claim his ss, or calling our government a thief for stealing their money I'll never understand.
Regards,
Eric
Every once in a while, something goes right!
Edited 9/1/2004 5:54 pm ET by firebird
Edited 9/1/2004 5:57 pm ET by firebird
I have to agree with firebird and aimless here. I respect your business sense and as a longtime lurker I have seen that when it comes to the business side of things you really know your stuff. I just can't follow your logic on this issue.Tom
Douglasville, GA
Geez guys. My wife and I don't agree on everything either, and throw in my four adult kids, and it's like The Tavern all over again, so I guess we will just have to disagree on this one.
Gotta go out and have my coffee and get back before my favorite Convention heats up.
>>before my favorite Convention heats up.
I dare anyone to figure this guy out!
BTW, I was tossed about whether to post that in the Tavern or not.
EricEvery once in a while, something goes right!
Hey Firebird, I'm a real live paradox.
That's why I sometimes consider myself an Independent, but then again, aren't we all?
Go figure.
Hey, well that's all good. I'm glad to see you posting on the board.
BTW, you were missed at Rhode Fest, I heard some grumblings from some of the locals and others about Sonny not showin up........maybe the next one I'll get to meet you.
EricEvery once in a while, something goes right!
Grumblings? That's a surprise. Let's face it. I'm not exactly the most popular guy on this forum, so why throw cold water on a terrific party? Maybe we'll meet at some trade show.
Well--do you want to be popular...or respected. The politician's choice, heh, heh, heh. Somehow, I can't see you regarding yourself as a politician....
I for one was sorry you missed RhodeFest; I was looking forward to meeting you when you showed up on the early attendees list. Maybe next year? Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
You're right. In fact there are very few politicians I respect, which is what I prefer. But let's face it, most of us would prefer to be liked than disliked, and besides, I really didn't want to remind my liberal friends, who I resepct as my peers, of our differences. The Fest was to be a fun time. I am sorry I disappointed you and maybe a few of the others. OK, I promise - next year for sure.
Okay--I'll be looking forward to it.
BTW--what's your vote for the location? The thread on the various possibilities kinda dropped off the board last week; maybe we oughta bump it back up.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
I was just reading posts about the future Fest and someone mentioned Florida, if it's in winter; someone mentioned February.
If that's the case, my son Tom, as of Oct. 16, will become Chair Person of Florida's State Remodeler's council. I can ask him if the FL. Rem. Council would like to host it. It would be a great opportunity for our own contractors to meet those from around the country, both remodelers, GCs, and specialty contractors. We live in Collier county and our local associatoin, Collier Building Contractor's Association (http://www.cbia.net/) is the largest in Florida (http://www.fhba.net/), so Tom's, eh, "influence" should carry some weight.
And since we live in Naples, it could be here. (http://www.naples-florida.com/).
Anyway, it's an idea.
My only problem with that is I can't go anywhere in the winter; Ryan's in school except when school is out--and when that's happening, my winter boss on the ski patrol would castrate me if I even thought about taking vacation: school break weeks are the busiest times of the whole ski season. What used to be known as Washington's Birthday has grown into a whole week, it seems, and is known up here as "Washington Week"--we take lots of vitamins, drink lots of coffee, and eat Motrin like candy....
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Well there is only one solution to this quandry........... You'll have to quit! (-:
There's another solution: You have to learn to ski.
Think outside the box....Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
OK, I can do that. Besides, you live in beautiful country.
Okay. Here's Lesson One (as quoted directly from the original Austian Arlberg Ski School technique that was the forerunner of our modern Canadian techniques):
Bend zee Knees
Watch out for zee Trees
Two dollars, pleeze....
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
I'm not exactly the most popular guy on this forum,
Really ... that's mine and/or Pete's job!
Liberals love us ....
Jeff
Buck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
What! You guys don't want to share the love?
I'm a firm believer that everything in life has a flip side. Notice I did not say "flip - flop." Don't want to get in more trouble here. So a flip side is that for each group or ideology, a pin cushion must exist for others to "stick it to."
Liberals can start calling me "the Pinster man," or Pinny, or wait - how about, "Pinhead?" Nah.. That's Bill O'Reilly's term.
They better not rough me up too much though, or I'll sic Zell Miller on them.
Ohhhhh. That was a low blow!
Liberals love everybody - all colors, all nations, criminals, victims, poor people, rich people (c'mon they love the Kennedys). So, liberals love you too, Jeff, even if you are an uptight conservative!
look at the number $6 billion a year. A current total of $376 Billion. After considering the numbers does anyone wonder why we don't curb illegal imigration?
I was once a forman for a company who's owner refused to hire anyone who even looked like they might be illegal. Then one spring he got in a bind and hired one guy. the guy had a social Security # and all the paperwork. soon he brought some buddies around and we had like six guys from South America.
Then one day, a bunch of letters came that the SS#'s and names didn't match. When confronted they all said " No problem, we fix" . The next week they all had new names and numbers. seems it's pretty common. I quite not long after but I know they worked for him for probably three more years. each one paying in to SS and all the other funds and not collecting anything.
Anyone who has tried to hire help in the last few years knows how hard it is. So who's jobs are these guy's stealing? Two ways to look at it.
"They aren't stealing jobs because we can't hire any Americans to do it." I know what it's like to try to hire help and you know what? I can understand why some people turn to illegals. I don't agree with it but I can understand. Look at some of the posts here in the last two years. Most guys can't get a young kid who can remeber how to get to the job the next day, let alone produce anything.
" these guys are driving the price so low, who would want to do this". I suspect this is closer to the truth. Most illegals work for less. The have lower expectations at first and are stuck in some little underground society and economy. In order to draw ambitious, talented young people into the trades and a whole bunch of other jobs, it needs to be economically attractive. Well, as these guys drive the price down, guess who's gonna come looking? More illegals.
So guess whats gonna change? Absolutly nothing. Know why? $376 Billion, thats why. Until the unemployment crisis gets so bad we near a depression ( highly unlikely looking at todays numbers), or the Illegals win a court judgement that allows them to collect SS, what incentive is there? None.
By the way, all these guys are trying to do is make their life better. I have no heartache with them. Don't have any sympathy either.