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Discussion Forum

Interior of a monolithic dome

| Posted in General Discussion on August 31, 2006 06:19am

Considering that I’m a new poster on this forum I tried to use the search function to find any previous postings concerning working on monolithic dome houses. The search function is about as useless here as it is over at Knots. Any way here goes and if I am asking a redundant question I apologize. I have been approached about building the interior of a monolithic dome house. This would include all the interior framing and most of the finish work except for the cabinetry. The guys selling the dome part of the structure paint a real pretty picture for the consumer, contractors that have done work in these structures seem to have less than favorable comments about their experiences. So I’m solicting comments from those that have had the pleasure or displeasure of working in one of these structures before I decide whether or not to take the plunge to build round.(Or would that be half round?)

Ron

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Replies

  1. FastEddie | Aug 31, 2006 06:23pm | #1

    Cloud Hidden is the local expert.  He designs domes.

     

    "When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it."  T. Roosevelt

    1. brownbagg | Aug 31, 2006 06:39pm | #2

      when it comes to dome. cloud hidden is God.

      1. User avater
        CloudHidden | Aug 31, 2006 06:54pm | #4

        I'm agnostic, so does that mean I'm not sure if I exist?The thing is, it's all standard skills. Beyond a few new tools, there's nothing unique that any of the pros here couldn't handle with aplomb, and many of the non-pros.

        1. User avater
          McDesign | Aug 31, 2006 06:59pm | #5

          <nothing unique that any of the pros here couldn't handle with aplomb>

          I got that new 28 Volt plomb, and I'm a speed demon now!

          Forrest

          1. User avater
            CloudHidden | Aug 31, 2006 07:07pm | #6

            Be alert...America needs more lerts!

        2. Piffin | Aug 31, 2006 08:11pm | #8

          god and you both seem tpo prefer to remain hidden in the cloudsAnd like you have a testimony to you existence by the dome shapes you leave sprinkled over the land
          So God has similar testimony in his creation so we know you both exist in spite of the clouds surronding the presence. 

           

          Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          1. User avater
            McDesign | Aug 31, 2006 08:26pm | #9

            Speaking of empty domes . . .

            ;-)

            Forrest

          2. User avater
            CloudHidden | Aug 31, 2006 09:00pm | #10

            I hope the OP has a construction question soon, be/c the rest is getting too deep. DW probably thinks I have a God-complex...don't need all of youse thinking the same. :)

          3. User avater
            CapnMac | Sep 02, 2006 12:36am | #24

            DW probably thinks I have a God-complex

            Prob'ly better than if she's convinced you have a Dog-complex, as being beaten with that rolled-up newspaper can hurt after a while . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

          4. User avater
            CloudHidden | Sep 02, 2006 02:29am | #25

            Hey, that rings a bell. I may be a dyslexic dog.

  2. User avater
    CloudHidden | Aug 31, 2006 06:41pm | #3

    Hi Ron,

    Tell me what you can about the location, shell builder, etc. Probably not one of my designs or I'd know of this project. I'd be happy discussing this here, as it's typically standard construction practices, but email is fine if there are any sensitive details about who is involved.

    Only request is that we call it other than monolithic dome, as that's a trade name and I'm not in business to promote their business. :) My preference is insulated thin shell concrete, or sculpted concrete, or air formed concrete, etc. The exterior is a shell rather than a dome, as shapes can be varied. We'll also separate marketing hype from reality (_my_ reality, no doubt, but it's the best I can do).

    FWIW, I've personally framed one and participated on others...seen a bunch of framers and a variety of methods, so should be able to point you in a direction or help you think it through.

    Jim

    1. Piffin | Aug 31, 2006 08:06pm | #7

      Tjhis'll be good for all of us to learn from 

       

      Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

    2. Ronaway | Aug 31, 2006 09:18pm | #11

      Ok so why don't we'll just call it a "dome home". My first thoughts about the prodecure for attaching the interior walls to the interior surface of the dome was to use segment attachment points, but that seems to involve a great deal of anchoring to the concrete portion of the shell on the interior side, so I'm thinking lots of labor as compared to conventional contruction. I am also thinking in terms of having to scribe fit drywall where it meets the interior of the dome shell, once again lots more labor as compared to conventional methods. There may be a loft in the left and right domes, so I am also concerned about multiple attachments points for the joist. I guess overall my biggest concern is about how much additional cost would be incurred building inside the dome as compared to conventional construction. Also what is the material waste factor as compared. Another question is about attaining financing for dome type projects, I understand that this is something that not every bank is willing to take on.Ron

      Edited 8/31/2006 2:20 pm ET by Ronaway

      1. FastEddie | Aug 31, 2006 10:21pm | #12

        No scribing necessary.  Sheetrock joint tape is 2" wide, and caulk can be applied to most everything else.

          

        "When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it."  T. Roosevelt

      2. User avater
        CloudHidden | Sep 01, 2006 03:06am | #13

        I've seen two primary ways of framing. One is to lay the base, and then use a plumb line or revolving laser to mark the line for the top plate following the curve of the shell, attach pieces with wedge anchors or tapcons, and fill in with the studs. I don't favor this method.My preferred method is to measure the height every 4' along the floor starting at an interior wall and running toward the shell. Then I build the 4' wall segment on the floor, setting the height of the top plate so that it will be about 1/4" to 1/2" short of the shell at the two ends of the plate. I stand it in place, drill a 1/2" hole through the plate, drill a 1/2" hole into the concrete shell, smash a wedge anchor through and move on. This anchoring method is sturdy, but also allows movement if the shell expands/contracts. The 4' sections are easy to handle for 1 person, they go up fast, and it's not so big that it leaves an excessive gap when segmenting the curve.The one thing I can't tell you is what allowance to make for time, be/c I didn't track it. Sorry.As for the SR, the crew took crude measurements every foot, connected the dots with a smooth curve, cut and installed. If you get within 1/4" (give or take) of the shell, it was easy to mud the top and then caulk the joint in case of expansion/contraction. Considering that trim isn't usually run there, you have the tradeoff of time and materials in your favor typically--scribing and taping/caulking versus taping the corner and running crown. The crew I used got used to it real fast and never bitched about that.Some of this is design related, too. Walls that intersect the shell at other than perpendicular are more of a pain be/c of the compound angles. Liberal use of partition walls helps. Stopping walls short of the shell, for example to create a walk-around entrance to a closet also helps. And also an open floor plan makes a difference when compared to cutting the space with lots of walls.Didn't find excessive waste on 2x's or sheetrock, be/c there were plenty of opportunities to use the cutoffs. More waste on plywood for subfloors, be/c you want to use bigger pieces to span the openings. Percentage depends on efficiency of design.Financing can be a nuisance. We've had success with Wells Fargo, but comps are always the hangup. Helps to have a good down payment and credit score. Also helps to not call it a "dome", but rather an all concrete house. The defining characteristic of these is structure and material first, and shape last. I say that be/c I do some with flat walls and very non-domeish shapes, but I never vary from insulated concrete.

        1. Piffin | Sep 01, 2006 03:31am | #14

          How 'bout this -Use metal C-channel framing for plates. Tapcon the channel into the crete shell. A few snips would let it follow the curve of the shell.Then for studs you can use metal or wood. I'm thinking for a crete dome home the all metal framing would have several advantages. 

           

          Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          1. User avater
            CloudHidden | Sep 01, 2006 04:36am | #15

            Yes, that works, albeit more difficult if you're not perpendicular to the shell, be/c the channel wants to twist then. My experience is wood, but those who've done metal have done it as you've described. Obvious advantages to metal for fire ratings, but I'd reached the point with mine where I was tired of concrete and steel and needed a bit of sawdust. :)When estimating, one must consider how many walls get shell attachments vs how many are just like any ol' interior wall. The number of walls that reach to the curved peak of the shell is usually small, at least in my designs. And don't forget that often there's no ceiling framing or sheetrock where there would be in a frame house, so the contractor has to consider how things balance out as a whole.I forgot to post some links for Ron. These show how others have framed:http://www.mountainviewdome.com/HouseInterior9.htmhttp://photos.itsa.info/displayimage.php?album=15&pos=31http://photos.itsa.info/displayimage.php?album=26&pos=234

          2. DougU | Sep 01, 2006 04:49am | #16

            Jim

            Very cool!

            I just watched the slide shows for the two houses, I really like the one that looks like a cross between a football helmet and a WWII Japanese soldiers helmet.

            Really once the shell is up the rest is just simple framing with an imagination!

            Thanks

            Doug

          3. User avater
            CloudHidden | Sep 01, 2006 05:13am | #17

            >Really once the shell is up the rest is just simple framing with an imagination!I like that.We've found with subs that some really want the project be/c it's different from their usual fare, and they find a way to make it work. Others are unexcited and approach it reluctantly. The difference between seeing "different" as a problem or an opportunity. I encourage clients to find subs who get excited about having a project that is outside of their norm.

          4. Ronaway | Sep 01, 2006 05:58pm | #18

            Guys, Thanks for all the info and the links, and also for the humor. I am presently designing and drawing the floor plan so I should be able to make it as easy on myself as I can.Ron

          5. Piffin | Sep 01, 2006 08:37pm | #20

            Be sure to consider that variable cieling height at doors so they open 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          6. User avater
            CloudHidden | Sep 01, 2006 09:01pm | #22

            Valid point. It is typical for someone not familiar with these to not properly account for the curvature. Per the plans, windows, showers, frigs and people would stick out beyond the concrete. Can't count the number of plans I've had to point this out on, including from licensed architects. Closest analogy in the plumb/level world is fitting staircases into houses with multiple levels and rooflines. I can even show you a published plan book that has a house (2 or 3 actually, as they're variations on a theme) with the MAX interior height being 7.5' and curving rapidly down from there. Oops. Guess no one's built from those plans.While it might seem simple to calculate this for a hemisphere, most shells are not just hemispheres, and when you're intersecting and combining oblate ellipsoids with barrel vaults with other shapes, 3D CAD becomes the only safe way to anticipate the resulting shapes.

            Edited 9/1/2006 2:01 pm ET by CloudHidden

          7. Piffin | Sep 01, 2006 09:08pm | #23

            giving away secrets now...? 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          8. User avater
            draftguy | Sep 01, 2006 08:01pm | #19

            how come all the doors and windows aren't round too?sell-out :)saw the custom cut joists and hangers attaching to the shell on some photos. Would it be easier to instead stop the floors short of the shell (bearing on a straight wall)? The space seems like it might not be that usable at that point.or do clients like to have the floor go all the way to the shell?

          9. User avater
            CloudHidden | Sep 01, 2006 08:50pm | #21

            There are some purists who think that only round doors/windows make sense. I'm not that pure. :) With the shell itself providing that much variation from the norm, I prefer to use more standard elements for everything else. The cumulative space loss from vertical walls can be substantial. So many different design possibilities. The curve of the shell can be shallow or severe, and each requires different solutions. The owners usually like to see the shell and not hide it behind a framed wall. And the framing would likely cost more than using hangers for the joists or a corbel or similar solution. That said, often I'll spec a vertical wall some feet inside the shell and then cut the shell wide open there as both an aesthetic feature and to serve as an overhang for a window or door. In that case the vertical wall makes for traditional attachment of joists. All depends on site, client, mood, etc.

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