Some red interior paint is on the short list for a very sunny south facing room. Clearly red exterior paint is used commonly but there the whole house tends to fade together, but in a room i think shadow lines could be much more pronounced. So is red something I should expect to fade…or more correctly if I get the right paint formulation how much can the fading be limited?
I found quite a treatise on paint posted(47849.23) by Goldhiller a year ago. I gathered this from the post:
1. PMMA is about twice as expensive as PVA, but it makes for paint that sticks better to damp surfaces, doesn’t soften up as much if it gets wet, sticks to most surfaces better, is more UV, acid, mildew and alkali resistant, doesn’t remain slightly sticky after it dries and forms a harder film. It simply makes for a better paint in any category you can think of that’s important in a good paint, except price.
2. inorganic pigments are from rocks, rocks don’t break down in UV
3. Paints have UV inhibitors.
4. Titanium dioxide actually acts as a catylist in the chemical reaction whereby UV light from the sun deteriorates the plastics that paints are made from. So, generally, white exterior paints tend to chaulk more than other colors of exterior paint. DuPont coats their titanium dioxide pigments to minimize this problem, but lots of paint sold here is made with titanium dioxide from countries like Turkey and Brazil where they simply don’t do
that.
5. You see, there are at least 4 different red pigments that are used in tinting paints, and they’re all of different colorfastness; 1. Toluidine Red which is the least colorfast 2. Napthol Red 3. Quinicridone Red, and 4. Perelyne Red (which is the most colorfast, but is more of a maroon color than a blood red)
So if I walk into the Benj. Moore store and ask for a PMMA paint with quinicridone red pigments, lots of UV inhibitors, and not with titanium dioxide especially if its from Turkey or Brazil unless its from Dupont….i would probably find out the 5 uses of a 5-in-1 the hard way.
Any advice on translating these details into something i can take into a store(BM, SW, P&L, PPG, etc)? And what fading to expect? Any tips for painting with PMMA based paint?
eric
Replies
Since I get the most of my paint products from SW, it just so happens I have what may help you concerning their products. They should be able/willingly to tell you which red pigment they're using in which line of paint product, how much UV inhibitor, etc.
Sherwin-Williams Tech Line - 800-822-5579
PS- SW now offers interior paint in the Duration line. That might be the ticket. Haven't used it yet, but the exterior Duration is the bestest longest-lasting exterior product I've used to date. (providing the suface is well-prepped, of course) First time on this here house (wood claps and trim) about 8 years ago, IIRC. Performance has been absolutely amazing. This stuff isn't cheap, so steady yourself by leaning on the counter. <G>
Egads.....another edit. Fact is, if you'd walk into any paint store and ask the attendees there which paints are PVA, which PMMA, which pigments, etc.,etc........you'd likely get blank stares from glazed-over eyes. Reason being, the folks there aren't likely going to be familiar with any of this technical stuff at all. This because they're there to sell paint, schooled to a dgree concerning which product to recommend for which project/application........but not to formulate that paint or keep themselves abreast of the latest ingredients in any product. You'd probably be viewed as a big PIA if you asked such things of them. BTDT. <G> Those sorts of questions are what the tech line is for.....but......they may not care to reveal it all to you, either. Maybe, maybe not. They could however, probably make better (or at least more reliable) recommendations for your perceived problem room than the folks behind the counter at your local store. We're lucky here as we have a gal manager who's very educated in the appropriate products for the situation at hand (understands some of the technical issues involved). But when she's stumped, she calls that 800 number, too.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 10/26/2005 10:33 am ET by goldhiller
Edited 10/26/2005 10:41 am ET by goldhiller
Edited 10/26/2005 11:01 am ET by goldhiller
splat,
I see you've already read the original reply, but there's been edits since. Might want to check those out.
thanks, I'll give their techies a shot. They'll tell me what options they have for fade resistant red. But then how fade resistant is it? Your experience with SW duration sounds like I would have a hard time seeing any fading for at least 5 years.
no dice, that phone number is tech support for their paint sprayers. I sent in a detailed message on their website. They say i'll have a response in 2 days. Probably better to just go in a store and question them.
eric
Edited 10/26/2005 5:17 pm ET by splat
I'll chime in. I compete with Goldhiller for the most nerdy guy here about finishes. (He's still winning) - but I'm one up today. I've used Duration interior. Oh my gosh. You'll never want to use another paint again. It brushes and rolls like a dream, it lays so smooth I got accused of spraying my walls (the sin, the sin!) and when its cured, it's pretty durn resistant to everything. Two short vignettes:
Sherwin yearly has a corporate "show" where all the reps, new store managers, etc attend to learn the latest and greatest. There are seminars and speeches and demos and and and. Last year the reps went to Nashville, and one of the demos was the new Duration. Guy took a King marker (big, black, very permanant) and drew a box on a piece of drywall coated with Duration. He says watch this. Sprays it with windex, wiped the marker off. Completely. No sheen change, no nothing. Well, the crowd said wowzers and all came home and said you'll never believe . . .
So the reps are telling this story. There's a painter in Omaha who had a rep visit him on site in a very, very, nice house *ahem* $$$. The rep shows up, the painter whips out a black King marker and draws a box on the wall. He says to the rep "now show me how you wipe that off." The rep about passed out. He asked frantically "when did you paint that?" Painter says "yesterday". "You know that's only supposed to work when its fully cured?!?!?" Well, they tried and it came off. No sign. They were both surprised, and the rep about had to go to the hospital. They then tried it in the dining room (which was getting repainted) which had 2 year old Cashmere on it and it destroyed the sheen.
Point 2 is what makes Duration so different is easier understood by looking at the difference in wood finishes, often clumped together in categories of evaporative or reactive. An evaporative finish is basically something that is suspended in solvent, and when the solvent evaporates, you have a film of solids left. You can add the solvent and remelt it; nothing has substantially changed. Regular nitro lacquer is a good example.
A reactive finish, like varnish, undergoes a chemical reaction. The solvent is holding the solution in suspension, when it evaporates, the components chemically react to form something that is different than the pieces that were initially there. You add the solvent back and it drips off the surface. Duration is a reactive finish. And that's where it gets it's strength.
Maybe its easier to think about it like sand. You take sand, you compress it, you get sandstone. But more or less, you still have sand, and you can make it sand again. Now you compress it and heat the dickens out of it, you get glass. You have a much harder time making sand again out of that. It underwent a reaction which changed its structure.
I understand none of this pertains directly to how lightfast the paint is. And whether or not I think that's a big concern is irrelevant (but since you asked, I don't). Hopefully it does give you some insights into why Duration is 40 bucks a gallon. And worth every penny."If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
Hey.....thank you for info on the Duration interior product. I'll be recommending it and using it with confidence as a result of that.Good explanations of various finishes there.....but.....but......but.......you forgot the coalescing finishes category. <G> And that's the water-borne stuff. (Okay, I'm a bit of a finish nerd. It's true. God help me. Better yet....shoot me....shoot me now. LOL) Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
well heck man didja want me to confuse the issue?
"brevity is the sould of wit" - Shakespeare
as you can tell from the lenghts of my posts, I'm at my wits end most days :-)"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
"as you can tell from the lengths of my posts, I'm at my wits end most days :-)"Well, at least you have some wits left. Mine came to an end years back already. <G>Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Thanks for the various feedback and advice. Some of the paint thinking feeds my chemistry background. I did get an email response from SW, pretty weak though. Essentially said i need to go to a store, even after i gave them a fairly detailed technical question. Generally it sounds that red paint will be fine as long as a top shelf product is used.
The bad news is that we ended up going ~green with the color. We chose Califronia paint Super-Scrub Ceramic 2010 with anti-microbial..blah blah sounds pretty cheesy, 100% acrylic was a more convincing term. Actually we chose it because an archy friend had a book of Calif. colors and once the "perfect" color was chosen there's no point in renegotiating colors with another brand. I try to forget the price, what's another $10 on the room though.
eric
Well crap. Evidently they've switched the numbers recently cause that was the paint tech line. I'll be checking into the right number tomorrow or the day after maybe.Another consideration comes to mind. If the windows in this room are new-ish and normal-ish.......then they're probably sporting a low-e-squared glass (Cardinal 145). I get diferent shading co-efficients from different sources, but the average is about .45. That should play a significant role in the fading potential of the paint compared to older types of glass with no shading co-efficient.Besides, how long before this deep-red paints trend is over and gone? If you simply use a quality paint, it'll likely hold up for the "duration" anyway, yes? <G> Some clients of mine DIYed the deep-red painting of their dining room about 5 years back. They chose poorly. The paint base didn't have enough binder for the contained pigments to achieve that color and those red pigments look like and rub off of the cured product as if it were lipstick. Moral of the story......avoid cheap paints from the big-box. <G>Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
How about fire engine paint?
was curious if you knew about http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/phpBB2/index.php?c=1 theres a whole bunch of info from jeff jewitt and the rank and file there. and are a good bunch too boot... give it a whirl
.." Feed the good wolf....."
Edited 10/26/2005 9:42 pm ET by alias