Replies

1. 
   Flathead | Feb 24, 2003 10:56pm | #1

   Charge more than it costs you.

   WAHD

   View Image

2. 
   JeffBuck | Feb 24, 2003 11:40pm | #2

   have you ever run trim before?

   better yet.....find a trim guy...get his bid.....add 15%......pay him.

   Jeff

   Buck Construction   Pittsburgh,PA

    Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite                  

   
   

   ---

   Edited 2/24/2003 3:41:56 PM ET by Jeff J. Buck

1. 
   McDonnel3 | Feb 25, 2003 12:01am | #3

   Jeff,

   That's really very good advice.

    The G.C. is looking to get the job done. He's asking the framer because

   1. he doesn't know of anyone else-- 2% chance of this.

   2. Nobody is availiable.

   3. Nobody want to work for him. You'll find out why when you bill for the framing.

   2. he's trying to get it cheaper, always worth a try.

   3. he sees something in you. Like a way to make his sub list shorter, less phone calls.

   4. he's trying to get it cheaper. Well, of course, I'm repeating myself. The point is worth repeating.

   So, find a trim carpenter and have him bid it and follow him around as a helper. You'll learn all the pitfalls and secret little tricks to maximize profit. And if the bid is "too high" you've saved yourself a couple of weeks of heartache.

3. 
   stossel1 | Feb 25, 2003 01:12am | #4

   Thanks to all for the responses. I have done interior trim before but never on a bid. I guess I'll just figure how long it will take me and charge accordingly. I mean its not that hard.

1. 
   JerraldHayes | Feb 25, 2003 01:21am | #5

   STOSSEL1 it's been my observation over the years that framers often quote

   prices for their projects based on the projects Square Footage which I've always

   considered a bad idea due to the lack of accuracy (see The

   Hidden Danger of Square Foot Estimating). As a framer I don't know if that's

   what you've done in the past or not but if you try to estimate

   and

   bid and interior trim project that was you wont be doing it for long. You would

   either lose your shirt pretty quickly or the better and smarter GCs would recognize

   that you were out of your league and didn't know what you doing.

   And like wise if the GC is looking for a SF price either they don't know what

   they are doing or they are looking for a finish contractor they can take advantage

   of because there is absolutely no correlation between the SF footprint of a

   house and the cost of architectural woodwork installation. Most

   trim work (although not all) is based on linear footage (i.e. baseboard crown

   etc.) or by the piece, assembly, or unit (such as doors).

   Okay those warning and admonitions aside the key to estimating trim

   is producing an accurate project takeoff. Think about what you need

   to include in your estimate.Did this GC give you a scope of work document

   to tell you just what he was looking for you to do? Finish carpentry includes

   such items as:

   doors and door frame

   finish hardware installation

   cabinets and shelving

   milled trim

   non-milled but exposed to view trim

   wall paneling

   stairs and stair railings

   And you need to takeoff for fasteners, biscuits, dowels, glues, putty, bondo

   etc. even if they aren't included on the plans and specifications you are looking

   at.

   Is the GC expecting you to supply all those materials, some of them, or none

   of them? If you are supplying the materials (maybe not the best idea if

   this is your first "real" trim project) then you need to get prices

   for the items in your takeoff from the various suppliers. Be sure that the time

   it takes you to perform the take-off and the the time it takes you to shop

   your materials list is included in your bid in one way

   or another (otherwise you are giving away your time for free).

   You also need to keep in mind what the probable state of completion (fabrication)

   of the items upon their arrival at the jobsite. In other words are the doors

   prehung or will you be assembling jambs and installing the door in place? Are

   the cabinets finished and ready to install or are they knock-downs that need

   assembly on site. Same thing regarding the stairs. Are they site built, a knock-down

   kit, or are they coming fully assembled and all you have to do is install them.

   And what about the railings? I think stairs are easy it the railings that are

   really difficult. Some items such as closet and bookshelves may come in part

   or pieces all ready to be installed or you may have to cut and fabricate them

   from materials on site.

   Having considered all the materials you now need to look at the labor involved.

   You need to both think of a labor cost related to each and every associated

   item on your takeoff and also:

   Unloading of materials from trucks, handling and temporary storage and

   protection

   Special tools equipment and scaffolding

   Handling and hoisting materials from storage to final position. (generally

   applies to stairs but can apply to other things too such as safes or large

   cabinets)

   Incidental associated items of work such as backing in partitions for

   the securing of cabinets and trim.

   Who is going to prime or seal the trim before installation?

   In a few other discussions here I've recommended:

   Go out an purchase the Craftman

   Books - 2003

   National Renovation & Insurance Repair Estimator and

   use the Man-Hour labor estimates in there as they apply for the kinds

   of work you'll

   be performing times your Hourly Rate. (I recommend the NR&IRE book

   as opposed to some of the other ones out there for finish work in that

   that

   book has the

   widest range of finish items that I have seen.)

   I say use the Man-Hour calculations rather than the labor costs that

   they have computed out because your Hourly Rate is unique and

   I think most every

   ones Hourly Rate is. They may average around a certain number

   in a certain range for a certain kind of work but we all have different

   schedules of

   overhead calculations and there are regional differences too." ----

   You also might want to check out Jim

   Tolpins Finish Carpenter's Manual. One of the real good things about

   the book is at the end of each chapter he gives some of his own man-hour

   figures for the task he has just described and there a good foundation

   to start from in building your own. Also check out the new edition of Gary

   Katz's Finish Carpentry: Efficient Techniques for Custom Interiors,

   No man-hour figures in it but it's full of great technique ideas. I now

   use both those books as training manuals for new hires.

   There are some other discussions here you may want to read too:

   Business  -   Costs for piecework trim?

   General Discussion  -   trim carpentry pricing

   The General Discussion  -   crown

   molding prices (while

   for a very small project gives an example of how I figure and look at pricing

   trim

   jobs with a simple elementray explanation of how I apply markup. How much

   do you know about the art and science of applying markup?)

   Good luck. I'd be glad to review your takeoff, numbers, and bid with you if

   you like if that helps you out too.

   View Image

   "Function is based

   on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use."- Sarah Susanka

1. 
   stossel1 | Feb 25, 2003 01:59am | #6

   Jerrald if you are ever in denver I'll buy you a beer. As a matter of fact I do bid by the square foot on my framing bids and never felt real comfortable doing it. I guess I would factor in a time estimate and juggle the numbers until I came up with a comfortable figure. I try to go as high as the local market will bear but the last two jobs I've had to come down in price to get the jobs. I will definately check out the literature you mentioned in your post. I would like to feel more confident in my bids. As far as the interior trim bid goes it is for a G.C. that I have a good working relationship with. I do all his framing and on a few of the smaller jobs I did the interior trim on an hourly basis. the current job would entail base and trimming windows, closet shelving  simple stuff. The stairs are in and my bid would not include materails. I've always wanted to do the trim on one of my frames and it would keep me at this job for about another month. Thanks again your post was most helpful.

1. 
   JeffBuck | Feb 25, 2003 07:45am | #7

   Jim Tolpins "Finish Carpenter's Manual" from Craftsman Press has pretty good trim numbers.

   JeffBuck Construction   Pittsburgh,PA

    Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite                  

2. 
   clampman2 | Feb 27, 2003 08:13pm | #8

   Stossel1,

   The only thing I would add to what Jerrald has already suggested is that , regardless of your relationship with the GC, I think you should preface your proposal with words to this effect "only those goods and services specifically listed in this proposal, are included in the price offered below. Should any additional work be required, it will be dealt with after completion of the specified work, under separate contract. No refunds will be given for reductions in the scope of the work contained in this proposal"

   If the GC wants a square foot price he can simply divide your price by the square footage. That is not something you should be doing, because it virtually binds you, legally, to do whatever he wants you to do regardless of complexity, at a fixed price.

   Just my own opinion, formed after nearly 40 years of contract trim work.(including Vail, Beaver Creek and Denver by the way).

   /Clampman