I am currently framing a 2700 ‘ custom and the G.C. wants a bid on the interior trim. Any feedback will be appreciated as I have never bid trim before.
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Charge more than it costs you.
WAHD
have you ever run trim before?
better yet.....find a trim guy...get his bid.....add 15%......pay him.
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
Edited 2/24/2003 3:41:56 PM ET by Jeff J. Buck
Jeff,
That's really very good advice.
The G.C. is looking to get the job done. He's asking the framer because
1. he doesn't know of anyone else-- 2% chance of this.
2. Nobody is availiable.
3. Nobody want to work for him. You'll find out why when you bill for the framing.
2. he's trying to get it cheaper, always worth a try.
3. he sees something in you. Like a way to make his sub list shorter, less phone calls.
4. he's trying to get it cheaper. Well, of course, I'm repeating myself. The point is worth repeating.
So, find a trim carpenter and have him bid it and follow him around as a helper. You'll learn all the pitfalls and secret little tricks to maximize profit. And if the bid is "too high" you've saved yourself a couple of weeks of heartache.
Thanks to all for the responses. I have done interior trim before but never on a bid. I guess I'll just figure how long it will take me and charge accordingly. I mean its not that hard.
STOSSEL1 it's been my observation over the years that framers often quote
prices for their projects based on the projects Square Footage which I've always
considered a bad idea due to the lack of accuracy (see The
Hidden Danger of Square Foot Estimating). As a framer I don't know if that's
what you've done in the past or not but if you try to estimate
and
bid and interior trim project that was you wont be doing it for long. You would
either lose your shirt pretty quickly or the better and smarter GCs would recognize
that you were out of your league and didn't know what you doing.
And like wise if the GC is looking for a SF price either they don't know what
they are doing or they are looking for a finish contractor they can take advantage
of because there is absolutely no correlation between the SF footprint of a
house and the cost of architectural woodwork installation. Most
trim work (although not all) is based on linear footage (i.e. baseboard crown
etc.) or by the piece, assembly, or unit (such as doors).
Okay those warning and admonitions aside the key to estimating trim
is producing an accurate project takeoff. Think about what you need
to include in your estimate.Did this GC give you a scope of work document
to tell you just what he was looking for you to do? Finish carpentry includes
such items as:
doors and door frame
finish hardware installation
cabinets and shelving
milled trim
non-milled but exposed to view trim
wall paneling
stairs and stair railings
And you need to takeoff for fasteners, biscuits, dowels, glues, putty, bondo
etc. even if they aren't included on the plans and specifications you are looking
at.
Is the GC expecting you to supply all those materials, some of them, or none
of them? If you are supplying the materials (maybe not the best idea if
this is your first "real" trim project) then you need to get prices
for the items in your takeoff from the various suppliers. Be sure that the time
it takes you to perform the take-off and the the time it takes you to shop
your materials list is included in your bid in one way
or another (otherwise you are giving away your time for free).
You also need to keep in mind what the probable state of completion (fabrication)
of the items upon their arrival at the jobsite. In other words are the doors
prehung or will you be assembling jambs and installing the door in place? Are
the cabinets finished and ready to install or are they knock-downs that need
assembly on site. Same thing regarding the stairs. Are they site built, a knock-down
kit, or are they coming fully assembled and all you have to do is install them.
And what about the railings? I think stairs are easy it the railings that are
really difficult. Some items such as closet and bookshelves may come in part
or pieces all ready to be installed or you may have to cut and fabricate them
from materials on site.
Having considered all the materials you now need to look at the labor involved.
You need to both think of a labor cost related to each and every associated
item on your takeoff and also:
Unloading of materials from trucks, handling and temporary storage and
protection
Special tools equipment and scaffolding
Handling and hoisting materials from storage to final position. (generally
applies to stairs but can apply to other things too such as safes or large
cabinets)
Incidental associated items of work such as backing in partitions for
the securing of cabinets and trim.
Who is going to prime or seal the trim before installation?
In a few other discussions here I've recommended:
There are some other discussions here you may want to read too:
Business - Costs for piecework trim?
General Discussion - trim carpentry pricing
The General Discussion - crown
molding prices (while
for a very small project gives an example of how I figure and look at pricing
trim
jobs with a simple elementray explanation of how I apply markup. How much
do you know about the art and science of applying markup?)
Good luck. I'd be glad to review your takeoff, numbers, and bid with you if
you like if that helps you out too.
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"Function is based
on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use."- Sarah Susanka
Jerrald if you are ever in denver I'll buy you a beer. As a matter of fact I do bid by the square foot on my framing bids and never felt real comfortable doing it. I guess I would factor in a time estimate and juggle the numbers until I came up with a comfortable figure. I try to go as high as the local market will bear but the last two jobs I've had to come down in price to get the jobs. I will definately check out the literature you mentioned in your post. I would like to feel more confident in my bids. As far as the interior trim bid goes it is for a G.C. that I have a good working relationship with. I do all his framing and on a few of the smaller jobs I did the interior trim on an hourly basis. the current job would entail base and trimming windows, closet shelving simple stuff. The stairs are in and my bid would not include materails. I've always wanted to do the trim on one of my frames and it would keep me at this job for about another month. Thanks again your post was most helpful.
Jim Tolpins "Finish Carpenter's Manual" from Craftsman Press has pretty good trim numbers.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
Stossel1,
The only thing I would add to what Jerrald has already suggested is that , regardless of your relationship with the GC, I think you should preface your proposal with words to this effect "only those goods and services specifically listed in this proposal, are included in the price offered below. Should any additional work be required, it will be dealt with after completion of the specified work, under separate contract. No refunds will be given for reductions in the scope of the work contained in this proposal"
If the GC wants a square foot price he can simply divide your price by the square footage. That is not something you should be doing, because it virtually binds you, legally, to do whatever he wants you to do regardless of complexity, at a fixed price.
Just my own opinion, formed after nearly 40 years of contract trim work.(including Vail, Beaver Creek and Denver by the way).
/Clampman