Ipe and “hidden fasteners” for deck
forestgirl
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
We’re going to build our replacement deck out of Ipe. Hubby has seen the hidden fasteners used for Trex-type decks and wants to use them for the Ipe. What’s the best system for this? Googling, I’ve seen IpeClips and EbTy. Not sure how many biscuit joiner blades we’d go through with Ipe.
Recommendations? Advice?
forestgirl — you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can’t take the forest out of the girl 😉
Replies
FG-
I helped another contractor/friend with an Ipe deck last summer, and used the Eb-Tys.
It took a long time, biscuitting every joist, and pre-drilling and running screws.
A couple of tips- if at all possible, set up a jig to slot the boards. We were re-decking an existing deck, and the framing wasn't too consistantly parallel. So we had to mark each and every board to slot it.
Use PL Premium polyurethane construction adhesive to help hold the boards down, The toe screws only grab one edge of a 5-1/2" board, and no matter how stable the matreial is, it needs help to make it solid.
Pre-drill thru the Ipe before screwing. Otherwise you won't get the screws in.
We had 2 biscuit cutters running, and the blades seemed to hold up fine.
I saw a web page on a "joining table" the other day, so I could build something similar to hold the joiner, and just push the boards up against it.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 1/31/2007 8:46 pm by forestgirl
I was thinking of a simple platform that would hold a deck board, with blocks the width of the biscuit cutter base spaced the same as your joists, so you can just drop it in place, cut the slot, move the machine to the next space, and repeat.
I'm visualizing this better than I'm explaining it.
I've also seen a continuous slot the full length of the deck board, so you can put a biscuit anywhere. But I don't know how that affects the strength of the board edge.
______] [___________] [___________] [_____________] [_____________
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does this make any sense?
Is there any concern about water collecting in the biscuit slots, or the full length rips? Pretty much all the decks I've done in the last couple of years we've used custom made SS biscuits...Expensive, yes, but looks so good.
custom Stainless Steel biscuits? yikes!!!!
Yeah, not so cheap. Used to have them made with dies, and those kept breaking. Now there is a guy in town with a water jet...Problem solved, and get cleaner end results.
Sounds like one heck of a gold plated deck...just curious how you talk clients into that kind of expense...or maybe you have the kind who have more money than King Midas ;-)
Last big Ipe project I was keeping an eye on was a boardwalk on the beach in Ft. Lauderdale, and standard Tiger Claw fasteners were the spec choice.
It's usually pretty nice to have the big bucks clients. A lot of the clients work somewhere in the wine industry, so as long as you keep buying Napa wine, I'll keep my job! I've been blown away by some of the costs of these decks though...One deck for a former winery owner, simple rectangle (although 12' up) about 12'x40' ran I think in the 50k range. I wasn't in charge of the books, so I'm not sure exactly. It also had a overhead shade arbor thingy (I'm all about technical terms).
Ipe seems pretty impervious to the effects of water.
At the Jersey shore, a lot of the boardwalks are now using Ipe. Where regular PT southern pine would last 5 years or so with the foot traffic, Ipe is lasting 20 years or more.
Yep, that makes sense! Probably easier than the set-up I saw here:http://www.garymkatz.com/TrimTechniques/Mech.Biscuit.Joinery.htm
But look what they accomplished!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Man, that must have been a lot of work, making all those panels.
I hope he got paid well.
Something else to consider.
If your deck framing is 16" OC, and you're running the decking perpendicular to the joists, you can use 3/4" Ipe, instead of the 5/4". Its plenty strong and stiff enough, and you'll save $ on materials.
But I'm not sure if the EbTys will work with 3/4" stock.
Shep, would you believe our old deck (built by the previous owners) was on 32" centers!?! This is with cedar, LOL. I think hubby wants to put them a little closer together this build. If we do 2"x6" I'm wondering what the maximum spacing might be..... Guess I better start check code, eh?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
cedar at 32" OC? What did you have, a deck, or a trampoline? LOL
A good book to help you with your framing sizes is " Building and Designing Decks", by Scott Schuttner, published by Taunton Press.
I'd go with 2x8 framing for the joists. The cost isn't much different than 2x6, and you can get a longer span. 2x6 Doug. fir or SYP joists can span 9' 9" at 16" oc, while 2x8 can span 12' 10", according to the charts.
It could make a difference in how many piers you have to dig and pour.
You can use a slot cutter and a router rather than a biscuit cutter. One carbide blade lasted my whole 1000sqft deck. I tried both and gave up on the biscuit joiner. It was too slow. After that experience I decided that stainless steel screws were deck jewlery and used them with a carbide countersink to fastened my next deck. Cheaper, stronger, as good looking in its own way, much faster, easier on my back. I'll never go back to a blind fastener.
Edited 2/10/2007 10:17 am ET by Jackall
What size boards will you be using? The only Ipe I've used is 5/4 x 6, and they are HEAVY. You would be happier bringing a tool to the board than you would bringing the board to the tool in that case.
Excellent point, woodguy! Hadn't gotten that far in my thinking. Tell you the truth, I can't remember what size is being used. We were supposed to build this deck 2 years ago, and I had looked at the material, gotten a rough price for the lumber, and then things fell apart. Now, our deck has fallen apart, LOL. So back to it. The memory ain't what it used to be.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Prepare to seal each cut end right after cutting to minimize splitting.
Jeff
We recently completed a 1000 sq ft Ipe deck with Deckmaster stainless. It was really expensive--about$1500 for the deckmaster--but the quality is awesome.
Holy Smokes, Deckmaster is expensive. Looks like it'd be about $450 or so for our deck. Not sure I want to "go there" for this particular house, but thanks for bringing them to my attention!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
If you shop around, you can find ipe pre-grooved for the various biscuity-type fasteners out there. Helluva lot easier than cutting grooves every 24" on both sides of every board.
OTOH, if'n yer feeling adventuresome, you could always just put a slot cutter on your router and go to town thataway. : )
Jason
If we use 2x6, pre-grooved would be a great idea. I'll have to check and see if it's available. Nyet on the router approach. Brings visions of buying the slotting bits by the gross. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I used the Deckmaster system for mine, and my wife was in charge of installing it. It requires about 1000 screws per square inch! She still enjoys stopping all conversation in crowded rooms by annoucing how I made her screw without stopping four days straight! <G> If you elect to forego endless screwing and go with clips, my yard does stock ipe pre-slotted for those who prefer clips. You may want to look into that option.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
EB-TY is going to be your best bet.... Thomson Mahogany out of Philadelphia will groove it for you. The groove runs the entire length
of the board. It has no affect on the load bearing capabilities of the deck board.
Forestgirl,
After researching most of the hidden deck fastener systems out there, this is what I used on my ipe deck and porches...http://www.screw-products.com/deck-clip.htm
Very pricey, but hey, so is the ipe. No plastic involved. Notice that no pre-drilling is required (only on the first and last plank which get face screwed). I was worried about wearing down my biscuit blade too, but it hasn't shown any noticeable wear.
Artyone
We used the Tiger Claw fasteners on our deck and I wouldn't do it again. This design might work okay for softer wood, but the Ipe destroyed the clips. I honestly think we broke a third of the clips trying to install them. We even broke plenty after we started predrilling the holes that the little tabs are supposed to be able to cut themselves.
It was a small deck and I didn't have time to chase down another system so we just stuck with it, but I would not recommend it for Ipe. I don't know about your deck, but I think Deckmaster requires access from the bottom. We didn't have that option, which is how we ended up with the Tiger Claw. I don't want to cut all of those biscuit slots. Who knew I'd end up predrilling all those holes instead.
-Rich
We used Deckmaster @ grade and just plugged the last few courses--it was a pain, but not insurmountable.