Escaped from Knots again, asking questions about constructing our Ipe deck. Pardon me for not searching, but the search engine is so slow!
First of all, what fasteners do you guys prefer, and any tips on installing them? We’re using 5/4 x 6″ boards. I’ve looked at the EbTy, but I know there are other styles out there.
What little I gleaned from a search at Knots seems to indicate coating the ends with AnchorSeal is pretty important. We’re in the Pacific Northwest (rain, rain, rain, occasional hot sun). Do you agree?? Any suggestions to minimize cupping, which one Knots member had a problem with?
On a ~30′ x 10′ deck, what kind of spacing between deck boards (not joists) do you suggest?
Thanks in advance!
forestgirl — you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can’t take the forest out of the girl 😉
Replies
I'm not far from you. My ipe deck and some others I have built are all holding up well. I would not use Eb-ty, I predilled, screwed, and plugged mine instead. In winter the gaps are tight, in summer they open up so I know the stuff is moving significantly (it's 5/4 x 6). I used Anchor-Seal religiously but there are still end checks and some checks in the boards themselves. IMO you cannot prevent this. The first day your decking is down it looks like a piano. It's all downhill from there, but it looks good weathered to gray.
david,
what spacing did you use between the boards when you originally installed them? Did you go tight and let them shrink or gap them assuming they will swell?
Also you mentioned that it is all down hill from the original install, how long have you had your's in service and are you happy with the current condition/look?
Any thoughts on staining sealing the IPE or did you just let your's go natural from the start?
Thanks.
we've done two ipe ' decks... average 16 x 30, one was 5/4 x 4
and the 2d was 3/4 x4
i try to avoid 6" decking in wood because of cupping, but the 5/4 helps
also.. i've still not seen a hidden fastener system that i would use, so we face screw everything.... first ipe was grk #7 torx head with a number 11 torx
this last one we used a #9 grk with a #25 torx
there is a drill /countersink called Smartbit that you can get from McFeeleys that speeds the drilling /contersinking process
on the first deck we used the anchor seal... it makes a mess of the ends especially if you want to use a finish on it
and i still observed end checking
on this last deck we used KD Ipe' and i noticed a lot less checking... we also used no anchor seal and i advised the owners not to finish the deck as they are not the high maintenance types
the owner on the first deck is willing to recoat with penofin every year
i'm a low maintenance/ no maintenance guy so no anchor seal .... no penofin... no finish... face screw with ss
Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 8/5/2008 7:07 pm ET by MikeSmith
Mike,
I can appreciate your low maint. attitude. Sealing a deck seems to be a never ending process so I don't personally do it, however my clients seem to be willing to take on this task. One of the things that really got me turned on to IPE was the fact that it would weather to a silver/grey and not require finishing, but nobody seems to sign up for this benefit <G>.
However, I have been a bit surprised with the checking and splitting/cracking, when left unattended. While I will concede that Anchorseal can be messy, I think that it is worth the effort to at least slow the end-checking process. In comparison between treated and untreated ends, the checking is worse w/o Anchorseal.
I must also admit that my evaluation is based on observations over the last year, so maybe it will stabilize somewhat.
Both of the decks that I have done with concealed fasteners used the IPE Clip system from http://www.ipeclip.com. The IPE was/is 5/4 x 6 and is pregrooved to accept the clip. They also have 3 kerf cuts on the underside to reduce cupping. I predrilled at a 45, glue with poly cons't adhesive and then screw w/ ss trim heads. So far, I have been very pleased with this system.
i'm thinking the KD Ipe' has less checking than the anchor seal treatmentMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Vintage and Mike, the Ipe Clips look very much like the EbTy in the pictures. Is it the reinforcement that makes the Ipe Clips different. Do you have any idea how significant that might be?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
fg,
i'm not too sure about the ebty since I haven't used them but without the ss insert in this IPE clip, I wouldn't use them. They do offer a a clip for use with either air dried wood or composite that has no metal insert. I assume this allows for more movement but I would think that could lead to loosening of fasteners over time.
hope your deck turns out well.
I'm interested in hearing comparison between those two finished/un-oiled in a few years
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i'll have to go take a looksee
BTW.... we use only GRK screws for decking... i buy them from a local distributor in 3000-4000 - 5000 count boxes ( like the old 50# box of nails )
i find them to be less money than McFeeley's
we also only use the GRK bits, as they are much harder and stronger than other bits and we buy them in the 50 each box
for gapping i got used to the benefits of large gaps after working with Trex where it is mandatory or it voids the warranty
for our Ipe' gapping we use our speed square, which is a fairly hefty gap... we get a lot less deris caught in the in-between
also.. since it's WOOD, we can't rely on just the gapping to keep everything parallel, we also have to string an occasional board or they will start wandering
we are pretty anal about having all of our face screw heads dressed & covered in perfect alignment, which also means we have to straighten the framing to keep the screw heads in a straight line
Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 8/6/2008 10:22 am ET by MikeSmith
Ditto on all that.
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I installed with 3/16" gaps. During the wet season they close up to 1/16", so I figure a 5-1/2" board is moving an 1/8".
Our ipe deck has developed minor checking. It's not a flaw in my mind, and it's not unattractive, it's what wood does when you leave it laying in the sun for years. I only mentioned it because on the day you install it's damn near perfect.
We recently installed a purpleheart deck. We used 1x4 and spaced it 3/8", partly for better ventilation beneath (it's too low) and partly to allow easy blowing-out of leaf litter that gets in the gaps. I'm sticking with 3/8" gaps on future decks. We also run Vycor over the tops of everything, and anywhere there's a hanger.
I have been gapping with an 8d nail. I see almost no movement in the 1x4 IPE` we have been using. probably does swell up to almost close in spring as the snow melts off it. Some of my customers dislike seeing gaps, having been used to 1x4 heart pine or fir T&G on some of these. They get walked on with bare feet, thongs and slippers, all the way up to spike heels!
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I like bigger gaps because it's easier to clean out the leaf litter. Last deck I built is too close to grade, and I want the added ventilation of the larger gaps. None of my customers own any spike heels, except maybe one guy I can think of and he wouldn't wear them outside.
I used the DeckMaster system for mine. It consists of some bracket strips that you mount to the framing, then you install the decking, screwing it through the brackets from underneath. The screws are pretty small, and seem to split the wood less than screws that go all the way through. It a bit slow, since there are a ton of screws, but it's held up well, and leaves the surface free of fastener holes.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Edit: I made up some 3/16" spacers to install the decking. Could have been tighter, since ipe doesn't move much, but I wanted to allow plenty of room for free drainage.
Edited 8/5/2008 2:48 pm ET by MikeHennessy
A search would be worth your time. There have been several really good threads with photos on IPE`.
I use stainless torx head trimhead screws from GRKCanada, predrilled.
Lot of negative reports on EBTY
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Piffin, I seem to remember you provided me with quite a lot of information when I first posted about Ipe ages ago. I wasn't able to find that thread. We are finally getting to the project, and the lumber is piled on pallets in the front yard.
I'm wondering if it might be just as easy (or just as hard?) to simply drill, countersink, and plug!
What's with the construction adhesive? Is that needed because these various tie things don't hold the whole (width) of the board down?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I use it ( const adhesive) because I am an overkill kind of guy and we get prettyy extreme weather conditions.I do not use it over open framed deck, but when we have EPDM rubber roof and sleepers under, there is added odds of ice build up stressing connections I remember you too. Was that thread of yours before here at BT or had I wandered off the reservation into the Knots forum for that?I do countersunk and plugs for woodworeking things like interior stair treads, but seems like an expensive thing for exterior, and I jhave always questioend how long those plugs would stay in my climate.
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Edited 8/6/2008 10:20 am ET by Piffin
I'm sure your island in Maine has much more snow than my island near Seattle. We get some sub-freezing temps each winter, but not a huge number. Snow every couple/three years (enough to measure). Mostly, it's high humidity. Our summer are mild, with a dozen days or so over 80 degrees (guessing here). Rarely gets up to 90.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
<forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)>
Still love your tag line!
Forrest
"Lot of negative reports on EBTY" OK, I'll do a search string....EBTY sucks, or something along those lines.
Seriously, though, thanks for the heads-up, I want to be well informed.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hi, Piffin. We're getting down to the nitty-gritty now, ordering supplies and such. I'm leaning toward the simple countersunk screw with plug. We're building this on 24" center joists. Hubby's not too interested in putting two screws (one at each edge) of every darned joist. Can we alternate? (Top edge, bottom edge, top edge, bottom edge)?? Any other time-saving approach?? thanks!!!
LATE BULLETIN: We've looked at the idea of just using Trimtite screws or something similar. Small head. Is that the type of screw you use?? Are those (that brand) comparable to the GRK brand? I'm assuming with thsoe small heads, we really would need two screws at each joist.
Sorry for this flurry, but Nick's on fire all of a sudden! (about time)
Would also be interested in your recommendation for a 12" blade for the Bosch CMS that will handle this Ipe. It'd be nice to get through the whole job without a sharpening, don't know how realistic that is......
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 8/29/2008 1:47 am by forestgirl
well, if Nick is on fire, let's sell tickets to the show!;)on blade, any low pitch trim blade. I don't think it is so much the dulling as it is the cleaning. I have used blades on a couple decks before sharpening.
There is heavy mineral in the wood which is what dulls a blade for sure, but there is a build up of wax with that mineral that rounds off the teeth to make a blade act dull.
I have frued thin kerf blades and woodworker!! from Forrest. I prefer the WWII for this.I am not familiar with the trimtite screws. But for my money nothing I have used has ever compared to the GRK screws. Still, if they are not available in your area, go with what you can get. I am thinking that if you will be countersinking and plugging, that a larger head would be better, esp if alternating fastener spacing.I have done the alternating thing on 16" and 19" spacing and found it OK, but at 24" it seemed to feel a bit loose. But you can start it that way and always add more if it isn't working out for you. If I were planning to try getting by with that few fasteners, I would definitely use the larger heads and plug over.Let us know what you do and how it works out.
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Hi, Piffin, thanks for the email exchanges, helped alot. We're going to go with the GRK FinTrim SS screws, two in each joist. Using 5/4 material, what length would you recommend? One guy at Knots is suggesting 1.5" Is that long enough, or should I go with 2"??
I was going to use #8 diameter. Zat OK?
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 9/5/2008 12:02 pm by forestgirl
i'd want 1 1/4 penetration in the joists
since GRK doesn't make a 2 1/4, i'd use the 2 1/2we just used $900 worth of GRK on our last Ipe' deck , we useda #9 x 2" but the IPE' WAS 3/4 , NOT 1"THERE IS A TOOL THAT IS ADVERTISED IN JLC... combines the drill & countersinkMcFeeley's sells itit will really speed your install with Ipe'
buy lots of extra bits and a couple extra tools
Ipe " is very hard on bits & countersinksyour screw doesn't want any grip in the Ipe"all the grip comes in the joist.... so a 1 1/2" screw will only give you 1/2" of grip... the screws will stripif you undersize your hole thru the Ipe" , your screws will snapyou need a balance between a thick enough shank , for strength and a small head for appearancebut if the Torx bit is too small, you will have trouble driving the screw without striping the head or snapping the torx bitMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
#8 good
if sinking a little, then the 1-1/2" OK, but I would prefer 2"I thought they had a 1-3/4" available. That would be just right, as Goldilocks tells me.
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I used Eb Ty on my Ipe deck over 10 years ago.4" boards with absolutely no problems.
I let it weather naturally -- no finish after laying it.
I'm in Maine so your results may differ.
Hi Walter,I'm interested in comparing notes. Have you ever oiled your IPE`? Is there any checking openning up?I think my oldest one is about 8-9 YO now and I have not seen it for a couple years but I think I will get to see it again in a week or so.
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Paul,
It's never had anything on it other than Mother Natures assortment.
Never had checking or any other issues.
It's 3/4" x 4" stock biscuited out where the Eb ty's are placed. I'm totally thrilled with its and the fasteners performance since early Summer of '98
I have never seen any actual checking either.I guess openning and closing of microfissures is more what I had in mind
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>>openning and closing of microfissures
That's exactly how I would describe it. One of those things you see when crawling around, not when standing up. At least not with my eyes.
My thinking has been that in this climate, water can settle in those baby cracks, then freeze, and make them behave like teenager cracks after a time. Theory suggests oil would help resist that.But all theory. Looking for time comparisons for accuracy.
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# 7 SS trim screws.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
I did DeckMaster also, but it is definitely slow going, especially at a low level where you have to slide underneath to do the screws. We also used the 5/4 X 6 boards.
We used a strip of aluminum el channel as a spacer. 1/8" I think. We laid the boards at an angle, secured one end and use a pry board to cinch it up tight to the spacer.
But if you have a lot of snow, and the deck is part of your entry way, you might want somewhat wider gaps.
We used Penofin for the finish. I highly recommend it if you want to keep the color. Figure re-coating every year for the first 3 years, and then maybe every other year. But if you like gray, no harm in that either.
fg-
I've done two this last year using a system called the IPE clip. Comes from the supplier and works with the 5/4 pregrooved boards. You need to predrill the IPE and then install a SS trimhead screw (I assume that the screws are GRK since they look almost identical) The clip makes its own 3/16" spacing which is a little wider than I prefer visually but no problems yet with exp./cont. They also recommend using poly const. adhesive to secure the boards.
I'll admit it is time consuming, but nowhere near as bad as I thought it would be.
Anchorseal is a must on cut ends to reduce splitting/checking but I don't think you will eliminate it no matter what you do.
There is a company called swan or swansea that makes a similar looking screw, but I find that they break off much easier than the GRK do.
That is a PITA, leaving you needing to get the grinder out to clean it up. These cheaper ones came in an orange tubHere are the GRK
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Piffin,
I thought that name was familiar so I googled it, turns out the mfg the woodpecker screws I have been using to face fasten IPE stair treads or other parts where I can't use concealed.
I agree that they are easily broken, although I haven't presonally comapred the same screw size with a GRK. The #1 square drive heads also cam out too ealily for my tastes.
#l6 Common Gal. nail for spaceing, easy drainage, easy debris cleaning. I saw Tom Silva on TOH put IPE down with marine adhesive (3M) and shoot in w/15 Gauge SS finish nails, so I followed suit, (my own home). Staying put, but has only been down for 4mos., next to swimming pool so it's constantly wet/dry. We'll see what winter brings.
Material was 3/4.
Edited 8/5/2008 8:22 pm ET by Pelipeth
I installed an IPE deck and will never do another. The boards now come with a dado in the side so that you can use invisible fasteners. This would be the way to go. Otherwise you have the extra step of predrilling every screw.
Trex makes a product that looks just like IPE. Most likely less expensive, easier to install and less maintenance. Stay away from IPE.
what is it that you dislike about IPE?
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Building the substructure of the deck is the easy part for me. Attaching the deck boards has always presented challenges. Even with composite decking, with screws stripping, and then not being able to remove them, etc.
Ipe, being a hardwood, for takes a challenging exercise and totally complicates it. This product should only be installed with invisible fasteners, ideally stainless steel, which just strips when you look at it.
Then you have to maintain the finish, unless you like the weathered look. If your deck gets a lot of sun, and you want to maintain a stain, get ready a never ending chore.
I love the look of the wood, but IMHO, a composite copy is the way to go.
Working with Ipe is like working with epoxy grout, not for the faint of heart.
Well,.hmmm...Thanks for saving more of it for us tough guys who appreciate wood instead of plastic.
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Piffin,
that deck is a thing of beauty! Can't quite decide which is better, the deck or the view.
Of course, me being in the midwest, I have to favor the view, just slightly ;>)
I did the deck, God made the view.I'm just a poor carpenter, he is the master craftsman.here is another picture of some work we did together.
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Another very fine project!
On both, what is the railing made of? I especially like the turned balusters in the first pic, but you don't see too many of those made of wood anymore.
That first one was a Fypon railing.
They used shots of that porch for a poster and one of their catalouge photos a few years ago. Fypon is injected molded polyurethene foam with interior re-inforcing. All their molds are made from original wood profiles.I'll attach another similar that we built from red cedar and turned the ballusters ourselves. It is over a tinned copper roof though.The second is all wood made on site.
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I'm in Vancouver (Canada) and I just built my deck out of Pedra 5/4X6 last year, more before and since.
I'm a countersink and stainless steel screw guy without glue. (yea, I can hear the comments already)
My practice is to lay Vycor deck protector on the joists, so that means no glue. I like the ability to hose in the gaps to remove the debris, and the Vycor protects the joist even if there is some cupping.
Even before the Vycor, I never glued, because I WANT the wood to move as the humidity changes - that way, it doesn't split.
Quality repairs for your home.
AaronR Construction
Vancouver, Canada
I'm with ya' on that. I want to cap the joists with Vycor and even if I didn't I don't see PT as a good glue surface. Maybe I'm just narrow minded but I'm about to do another deck the same way.
Hmmm, hadn't heard about the Vycor stuff before, thanks for that info! Rotting joists are common here in the Great Northwest. I sent an email to a local home-builder asking if he knows of a local source.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Anyone know off the top of their head if Vycor is rated for direct sun? Regular ice and water isn't. I'm just wondering what happens over time to any exposed sections.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I ran my Vycor long over the cantilever joist I made, and it's been exposed to the elements for 2+ year. Perfect.Quality repairs for your home.
AaronR ConstructionVancouver, Canada