or do I just not know enough? Electrical isn’t my specialty.
I’ve got a guy putting in a radon system this morning. He has to tap into the main panel to run a new outlet for the air pump.
I asked to let me know when he would need to turn the power off to install the new breaker. He said he wouldn’t be turning it off. He would run his wire and then put the breaker in. He said he knew what he was doing?
Is he nuts?
Replies
no, my electrician changed he entire panel without pulling the meter (the meter guy didnt show up) he used to work at a hospital where they had to work on things live.. you should have seen it..he was like a human voltage detector.. he would touch live wires to figure out if they were live.
Edited 5/8/2008 11:36 am ET by ravz
I've never turned off the main just to put a switch in. It just doesn't seem necessary to me.
I've never seen an electrician kill the power to work in a residential panel, they all seem to work "live"
If he's adding a breaker, its pretty easy to do, tie on the neutral & ground, put the hot on the breaker, and snap the breaker on, and turn it on.
I don't worry about stuff like that.
Geeze, I thought you were asking about me..
Nah, killing the main causes a house re-boot on every clock and computer a PITA.
Just the breaker he is adding SHOULD be in the OFF pos as he thumps it in..else wise I have seen an issue with a small arc, and if all is AFP , it'll kick somewhere else and make ya go hunting for a reset.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
All but one puppies in happy homes..just one to go..whew!
Geeze, I thought you were asking about me..
Yeah.....like he'd have to ask.
DOH!
Time to talk to my Doc about Sarcasma?
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Pp, Qq
A friend hired an electrician to change two electrical outlets.
The electrician removed the old outlets and installed the new GFI outlets without ever turning off the juice.
They know what they're doing I guess
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If he shut down the entire house just to install a new breaker,Then I would worry!
Ok, ok, I was wrong.
Thanks all.
Obviously I'm not a pro at this (am I still allowed to ask a question about it though?).
when you put (read 'force') the new receptacle or switch in, just don't squeeze it by the sides like I always forget adn do...
Bzzzt.
This recurring event has caused me to wind black tape around the outside of the switch or recpt.. I can remember to do that, but forget not to grab it and get buzzed!
when you put (read 'force') the new receptacle or switch in, just don't squeeze it by the sides like I always forget adn do...
Bzzzt.
This recurring event has caused me to wind black tape around the outside of the switch or recpt.. I can remember to do that, but forget not to grab it and get buzzed!
Howling with laughter....I could've written that myself!
It usually happens as the HO walks by..."How's it goin?", "Oh fiiIIine!". Soooo perfeshkunal.
Totally...
And in the 'moment' you call yourself the same name every time... "you [expletive] idiot!!"
That's when the homeowner comes by...
while I've got the ear of 'deadman1' I have to tell you how the other day I almost killed myself too. I'd h ave to change my screename to 'deadman2'
I was trying to get the fan onthe gaddamned range to stop rattling and had removed the tinny cowling from the back of it... you know, myself crammed into the 1' x 32" space made by pulling it out 'enuf.'
I had dropped the screw once more and was reaching in back there to get it, inside the guts of the range when I got myself the worst blast of voltage I've ever had. Thumped me real good. I used my arm to complete the circuit somewhere between the element and the body of the range...
That one gave me more pause than some electrical tape could fix...
Just shut the breaker OFF.
Youch!
I used to know a guy that regularly did the 2 finger "is this hot?" test on residential breaker boxes...until he hit 440 in a commercial box. The muscle spasm yanked his arm away from the box and he shattered his elbow on a wall or beam or something.
It was a long time ago, but I remember seeing the pain in his eyes as he told the story.
Lol, about 2 weeks ago I'm in a store for this new account I have...trying to make a good impression and all... So I pick up this free-standing display sign in the lobby, and the big round base comes with it...for about 2'.
Then it drops squarely on my toes. DOH!
The guy I work with does lots of siding--if the electrical box on the outside is in his way, he just cuts the seal and opens it and very carefully loosens the screws holding it to the wall so he can slide siding behind it! When he finishes the siding, he tightens the screws, closes the box and sort of pinches the seal back on. He said one time he touched the wire and found himself sitting several yards out into the lawn!
(am I still allowed to ask a question about it though?).
Yes, but, when you ask a question, be aware that you may get answers.
No he's not nuts. I've always wired panels "hot". As long as you know what you're doing its not a problem.
I think I know your electrican......
View Image
Is he nuts? Only if he's a BTer.
JMadson.
I usually work on a live box,, aww heck, I've always worked on a live box..
I was working with this oldtimer once who had me "work hots" as he called them. Yeah he is crazy though.. I say "let the alarm clocks and cpu's reboot."
All I ever wanted in life was an unfair advantage...
no i've often added wiring in a live panel box. it certainly requires added caution, take care to keep your left hand ungrounded, electricity passing through your right arm will kill you, i also reccomend a dry well lit work space, a dry wooden pallet or rubber matting is a good idea . NEVER TOUCH THE BUSS BARS THAT THE BREAKERS ATTACH TO!! if the panel box is very crouded it is much hader to work in safely . i prefer to manuver all wires using insulated plyers
I'd prefer the panel to be off. I mean it's just common sense. I love to have incident free days.
Well, you can tell by the way I use my walk, I'm a woman's man, no time to talk. .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy3LM5_-i1Q&feature=related
The case of adding a breaker is one of the safest forms of "hot work" you can do. The breakers generally snap in with no real danger of contacting the hot bus. One just has to be careful to not touch nearby wires when making the final connections.
What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. --Bertrand Russell
"One just has to be careful to not touch nearby wires when making the final connections."
Yea that's when the problems start. I work hot a lot, I'd prefer the panel off. Getting killed sucks. It's actually a violation of the NFPA to work hot without special paperwork.
Well, you can tell by the way I use my walk, I'm a woman's man, no time to talk. .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy3LM5_-i1Q&feature=related
This is as good as a place to tell this story as any.My son in law and I remodeled his house. He failed the final because they wanted him to add a new riser to bring the service into the panel. He was going to hire an electrician so he asked the guy across the road for a local referral. The guy across the road was a Detroit Edison lineman and worked every day with wires. He offered to run the line thorough if my SIL would mount the riser. After the metal riser was mounted, Dan, the wireman came over. He rammed the live wires down through the riser with them sparking and arcing all the way out the bottom! If I wasn't standing there (I backed up a dozen yards, LOL), I wouldn't have believed it. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I just put in a 240 single phase circuit for a table saw and I worked it hot. Its relative safe to do. I second the "do it hot" bunch. Man I like it hot!
To All: Why not just turn it off! Better safe than sorry!
Time. Not the time it takes to turn it off, but the time on all the microwaves, dishwashers, clock radios, and the occasional refrigerator, not to mention the time required to get recalcitant computers rebooted.
What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. --Bertrand Russell
Just another offshoot comment about the time lost when the electricity to the house is turned off. Why is this -- the necessity to reset all the clocks in the house -- such an issue when we gladly accept daylight savings time changes twice a year? It requires the same excercise.
You probably suspect that I hate daylight savings time. You are right.
And also the fact that installing a breaker in a hot box isn't particularly more dangerous than installing in a "cold" box (where the incoming wires are still hot). In both cases you're in more danger from tripping on the basement stairs on your way down to the panel.
What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite. --Bertrand Russell
I hear ya. But doing it isn't much more dangerous than plugging in a drop cord.
Well except of the ring on the finger, watch on the wrist, etc. that can ground out to a buss or bare hot lead that you don't have when plugging cords in. Had an experienced sparky working for my favorite electrical sub here who was installing the cover on a hot panel box, resulting short damn near killed him. Investigators are still unsure just exactly what happened.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Jewelry is a buggaboo around electricity. I once cross the poles of a DC 24 volt 200 amp DC generator with a watch. Burned me real good. Watch got cooked. I never did like jewelry on me while working at anything. I should have known better.
".....jewelry....."
Long time ago, when I worked on charter / fish boats. We had some sort of problem with a battery connection while at sea. 48' boat, ~6' sea running.
I was wearing a Bulova watch with stainless steel band - had that clip system which rocks closed to tighten the band to your wrist.
Boat had a bank of 3 - 8D batteries - the ones that are about 4 - 6 times as big as a regular car battery. "Only 12 volts"........
In my right hand I had a combination wrench tightening the positive terminal nut of one battery --- boat came off a wave funny and I put my left hand out to catch myself.
The clamping mechanism of my watchband contacted the grounded engine block. The sparks did fly accompanied by a loud pop, molten metal and a plethora of obscenities.
Watch band clamp spot-welded shut while heating to about 8 zillion degrees.
I cooled the band in the bilge water and had to break the weld with a screwdriver to get the watch off my wrist.
Still have the scar on my left wrist, have never worn a metal band again - I like plastic!
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
I was lucky in that my watch band was the expanding type. Either I broke it jerking or the generator burnt it in two. I think maybe the generator burnt it in two. Funny it never worked after that. It was before electronic watches. It was an Omega self winding watch. Bought in the PX in Germany. It left a big blister on the top of my wrist. oooouie the sparks did fly!
LMAO! I have no trouble believing it.
Well, you can tell by the way I use my walk, I'm a woman's man, no time to talk. .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy3LM5_-i1Q&feature=related
OMG...
Similar--b4 I was a contractor I remodeled my own house including replacing the service.
An electrician aquaintance came by and insisted we could cut the old service away by ourselves any time... No bother to call utility to do it.
Alright...
He just reached up off his ladder, and cut the wires away, taped on a powerstrip and nailed it to the tree next to the house.
"There you go," he says.. you can plug into that.
Later after i'd hooked everything back up into the new panel, the utility came out and reinstalled the service.
First bill came and it was $3,632.
!!!
I called and explained the situation.
It was discovered that the old meter had one less digit or something, but basically as they'd not turned it off--they just used the old # on the meter and added on the new...
Nuts.
Not exactly relevant to the original point, but I want to relate an electrical 'experience' I had this week, just plugging in a dryer. It was in an old house, I was leaning on the dryer and my head was touching the cover of the main panel which was next to/above the dryer. I don't know if I had my finger touching the prong of the plug or what, but I got a h^^% of a jolt. I didn't see, but rather experienced, a big sensory flash, and bit my tongue really hard. It was not a good time, and my tongue still hurts!
"I love to have incident free days."Anybody else think of you as boring?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
LMAO. As I get older I'm really attracted to boring. call me weird.
Well, you can tell by the way I use my walk, I'm a woman's man, no time to talk. .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy3LM5_-i1Q&feature=related
It gives me a contented feeling when they call me boring. I know then that I have reached Nirvana.But I often work hot breakers into a service panel.
I just try not to sneeze while I do it.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
We all do it. And it's dumb. But hey we never realize that until we lose a limb.
Well, you can tell by the way I use my walk, I'm a woman's man, no time to talk. .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy3LM5_-i1Q&feature=related
..... 4160V on the loose.
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WHOOO! Gotta love it.
Well, you can tell by the way I use my walk, I'm a woman's man, no time to talk. .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy3LM5_-i1Q&feature=related
oh yeah, scared the puppy water outta me when it went off,.
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I can imagine.
Do you have any idea what sparked it?
Well, you can tell by the way I use my walk, I'm a woman's man, no time to talk. .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy3LM5_-i1Q&feature=related
a Main Power Transformer had been repaired and the Sr. start up engineer was in the process of powering it back up when I asked him about the 5Kv cables that had been disconnected in that cubicle......his main concern was getting the transformer running and I was told the cables were " not his problem" so I took my camera out of the bag and just sort of waited.
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LOL I love pricless moments like that.
Well, you can tell by the way I use my walk, I'm a woman's man, no time to talk. .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy3LM5_-i1Q&feature=related
yep all 1.2 million dollars of it.
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Does he still have a job?
Well, you can tell by the way I use my walk, I'm a woman's man, no time to talk. .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy3LM5_-i1Q&feature=related
yeah, it was the dardest thing..... he blamed the customer for being to cheap to put a protective relay ( $35,000) on the temp power that had been re-connected in that compartment since the permanent cables had to be removed while the MPT was being repaired...but the temp tranny was only protected on the primary side by pole fuses 400 yards away.and , only one fuse blew during the approx 12 arcing faults I witnessed while the gear was on its way to melt down, which left two live cables in the compartment when the engineers opened the door evn though I was screaming my head off that the shid was still live !!!I can't find the pictures of the aftermath on this disc, I will look around for those later tonite.
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Edited 5/13/2008 8:34 pm by maddog3
anyway here's one of me closing an air switch on 138Kv..I got my a$$ chewed for causing that arc by closing a bit too slow, but it made a nice pic.
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Edited 5/13/2008 8:36 pm by maddog3
DUH !.
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Looks like a good crop of 'lectizity this year.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
click here for practice clicking
Thank You just doing what I can to replenish the ozone.
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Pretty sweet picture.
Well, you can tell by the way I use my walk, I'm a woman's man, no time to talk. .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy3LM5_-i1Q&feature=related
it was a kick to do it , I really didn't see the flash.... the sun was in my eyes.... until I got the pictures back, but I sure did hear it.
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The smarter they are the harder they fall. LOL
Well, you can tell by the way I use my walk, I'm a woman's man, no time to talk. .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy3LM5_-i1Q&feature=related
that's just it, he kept his job.
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I'm not surprised. He didn't have to pee in the bottle either did he.
Well, you can tell by the way I use my walk, I'm a woman's man, no time to talk. .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy3LM5_-i1Q&feature=related
nope, aside from lettin' stuff blow up, he really was an ace EE,.
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What's a little explosion amongst friends once in a while then. LOL
Well, you can tell by the way I use my walk, I'm a woman's man, no time to talk. .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy3LM5_-i1Q&feature=related
LOL, seriously Gunner, it was a pretty scary situation , what you didn't see in the picture was 12 pack of Nitrogen bottles and nobody knew if those where gonna catch some shrapnel, and the truck I was hiding behind had a 100 gas tank in the bedI was only about 30' from those blasts so I needed to check my shorts later,.
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I needed to check my shorts later
The picture seems to indicate that your short was just fine - worked well
oh hell yeah ! :).
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Ohh yes I figured there was a scary part to it. LOL
Well, you can tell by the way I use my walk, I'm a woman's man, no time to talk. .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy3LM5_-i1Q&feature=related
Nah,
I used to work on things live cuz I was a cool brand new shiny Journeyman Wireman,
..... actually landed in the hospital once because of it
but after all these years, I prefer things de-energized !
just not the mains to install a branch breaker
and I do have a couple of stories regarding accidents while installing industrial breakers,
one is pretty gruesome though
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I hear a lot of war stories in this thread ... and I'll even admit to the truth of them. Still, there are two points to consider:
1) OSHA rules, and common prudence, say turn off the power if you'll be working on a circuit. The NFPA-70E rules, which address live work, would have you put on a moon suit to just open a live panel ... never mind snapping a breaker in. Real Sparkies never work hot if there's a choice.
2) Electric work is for electricians to do ... not the pool guy, the HVAC guy, the radon guy, the computer guy, or anyone else.
This is something addressed by local ordinance, or the rules of whoever licenses contractors. A common rule is a limit of 10 ft. of run ... that is, the HVAC guy can run a whip to the disconnect, but needs an electrician to put that disconnect in.
Thanks for adding a voice of reason.
We all do things everyday that wouldn't meet national safety standards, and live to tell about it.
That doesn't mean we should condone others taking the same risks.
I guarentee more than half the folks here don't use safety glasses on a regular basis. Are they "nuts" not to do so? Ask a guy who's lost the use of even one eye because of it.
Most jobsite accidents are preventable.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Pp, Qq
Depends on how your SEP looked after I got the cover off.
Some SEPs are very nicely organized, others are a crowded disaster area.
Nicely organized ? I would work this job hot.
Crowded disaster area? "I'll let you know before I shut off the main."
My reply would have been - "I'll let you know in a while - may not need to shut off the whole house."
I always try to shut off the circuit to an outlet box before changing switches, duplexes, etc. - have worked them hot, but find it too slow usually.
Jim
I've pulled the cover off a panel to inspect and kept it live, but I would never do anything like pulling lines and/or changing out a breaker. Too many sharp edges and potentially loose connections makes working "hot" a dangerous sport.
I know of one licensed electrician who almost died working a live panel. He was simply tightening up the set screws with a big, fat screwdriver when it slipped. Closed the circuit between hot and ground....the panel was commercial 600V....vaporized the screwdriver blade and shot him 15 feet through the air. Ministry of Labor fined the company 50K for his actions. When he was found, the workorder paper was in his shirt pocket smoldering.
Well, if we're telling stories about working live, here's a doozy. I represented an apartment owner whose basement was flooded during a winter coastal storm. After the basement was pumped out the power to his building was still out, so he ran a wire from an adjacent building so he could get power to the boiler in the basement.The connection was made at the box for the emergency switch. The oil company sent out a repairman to fire it up and, although the switch supposedly was "off" , he claimed to have suffered an electrical shock. He went to the ER where an ekg was normal, but he had a massive stroke the following morning which left him severely disabled. Months later, he managed to get ahold of his 9mm and ended his misery. (Couldn't prove it, but it had to have been given to him by his soon to be remarried wife, who also brought the lawsuit).
Turns out, the guy had a long history of atrial fibrillation, which is an abnormal heartbeat which puts one at risk of developing clots on the heart wall which can then break loose and cause a stroke. Blood tests showed he probably wasn't taking his blood thinners which reduce the risk of clotting. Electrical shock is known to induce this irregular heartbeat and ,medically, is used to reverse it to normal.
The liability theory against my client was that he reversed the polarity to the switch so that the boiler was "hot" making it a shock ready to happen. (There was no strong evidence of this since there was no immediate forensic inspection). My main argument was that the guy never should have touched the unit until he made sure there was no power going to it, particularly in view of the obvious temporary frig rigged wiring into it. We also contested the claim that the shock caused the stroke. Fortunately, the jury agreed with me.
The moral of the story, avoid even small electrical shocks if you have heart problems.
Edited 5/10/2008 10:49 am ET by TommH
When changing a receptical or switch I prefer to have the breaker off, but often don't. When I put in a new breaker, it's always on a live panel. When I do though, I always make sure I'm in rubber soled boots (I always am), or standing on a rubber mat, I do my work not touching anything else but my tools, my tools are always well insulated (screwdrivers all the way to the tip), but more than anything I concentrate hard on exactly what I'm doing and work methodically.
Truth is even though I did it for years, I won't change out breakers anymore except in my own house, liability is just too risky. I let Sparky do that, besides that's his job.
My "tic" tester is always with me, not just for convenience sake, but it can be a lifesaver.
"When I put in a new breaker, it's always on a live panel. When I do though, I always make sure I'm in rubber soled boots..."
Then you wouldn't approve of this guy's method? :)
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BruceT