This is local here – the school. More or less a hundred years old.
I have oft heard it called slate, but it always looked like asbestos to me. Too even in shapes and thicknesses.
Walter asked about it so I shot some pictures today.
These are thicker than any asbestos I have ever laid or torn off, and have a very unique texture, but they are thinner than any slate I have ever worked with and the texture again is unique. All pockmarked.
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We have quite a bit of similar stuff around here.
My experience has been that it tests out to about 10% asbestos. They used it for binder. Still has to be treated as asbestos from a legal point of view, but the abatement crews don't even put on the white suits. They double bag it for disposal.
http://grantlogan.net/
But you all knew that. I detailed it extensively in my blog.
I admit, I held back a couple photos -It does not show as clearly in what you can see here as when I hold these broken chips in my hands, but white fibre clearly stands out at the broken edge. You can just see a tuft sticking up outlined against the dark background in the first of these.
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but white fibre clearly stands out at the broken edge.
And if you handle it with reasonable care it poses little or no threat. It's got asbestos in it, but it's not pure asbestos as the pipe insulation in the basement is.http://grantlogan.net/
But you all knew that. I detailed it extensively in my blog.
No - it is definitely an encased asbestos re-inforcement, not friable.I have just never seen this product before. Looks like a man made slate of some sort.The roof is ready for replacement and Walter was asked about re-laying the slates, but this does not look like a relay job to me. These are about 3/16" thick. I have another 8-10 photos of it.
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I have just never seen this product before. Looks like a man made slate of some sort.
Yeah - exactly. We've got a lot of that stuff here. I've done some repairs on it. It's tough to get replacement pieces. If any is torn off it gets abateted.http://grantlogan.net/
But you all knew that. I detailed it extensively in my blog.
i've seen a few asbestos roofing... usually in a diamond pattern
much more prevalent is the asbestos sidingthe only requirement i know of is ... call for a special pickup and double bagMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
i've seen a few asbestos roofing... usually in a diamond pattern
Like these?
View Image
There must have been a good salesmen went through here years ago because there are a lot of them around. I need to take mine off but the historical society thinks I should keep em! I need to have my lawyer send them a letter, don't seam like they take me to seriously!
Doug
Edited 4/22/2008 9:53 pm ET by DougU
i have an intense dislike for historic distict zoning... or mybe it's just the jerks who wind up on those boardsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
i've not only seen those, I used to lay a bunch of them.They were made in a regtangular shape too. I always liked the diamonds tho
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Paul,
I've never laid them new , but repaired a number of them.
Pain in the rear to keep a pouch full of the copper butt clips I bet ?
Sending you an e mail with cell no.
Walter
I kept those copper pin clips in my mouth.Wanna bet that with handling the tiles, I managed to transfer some asbestos fibres to my lips?Splintie will never kiss me now.
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A new study just out claims that those fibers encourage regularity !!
My bran flakes are feeling the competition!
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Bart called yesterday. It definitely tests asbestos.
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Re-reading this thread in morning light, I am thinking I should apologize to you for that comment. Sorry to touch your sensitive parts.
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I didn't take it harshly at all, Paul. I've never doubted your kindness, even when you've been dead wrong on an issue. ;^)My concern about asbestos comes from Ian's bitterness at dying after having been told as a 20-something that cutting 'non-friable' asbestos-cement sheet wouldn't hurt him bec it was the WHITE asbestos, not the blue stuff. The bosses were lying through their teeth, but the workers trusted them. People on this board trust you; you have an obligation to offer true information and not hearsay. Ian and i did an enormous excavation of the asbestos industry's concerted lying, faked science, and legal stonewalling on reparations to miners. To hear anyone repeat the false information the industry disseminated, which will end up contributing to a death like Ian's, energizes me. It's one thing to know the hazards and ignore them, e.g. continuing smoking, quite another to claim it's harmless. The fellow who was bragging about blowing asbestos out his window with the fan should be jailed, IMO.
I misseed that one. Was it in this thread?I had quite a long chat with Bart about some of my early exposure. the worst exposure and what will get me if it ever does, was from working on a commercial roof in the seventies. We had a 55 gal drum of loose fibre that we were taking in bare hands to throw up against the cant and firewall while the asphalt on it was still hot. I was just a laborer then and nobody told me about the dangers, nobody provided any masks, etc. For my first ten years in construction, the closest I got to an education about it was as we were doing some demo on a house and takiong out the pipe wrap, breaking it into chunks and throwing it into the dump truck. The guy I was helping said something along the lines of, "Ya gotta hide this down under the other trash, 'cause ya know, we ain't supposed to be handling it, but I been doing this all my life and I'm still doing fine."
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Not this thread, but previous threads where i've disputed your assessment that the danger of asbestos had been overblown. I've mentioned elsewhere that 1 in 200 deaths in England are now asbestos-related and the mortality rate is not expected to peak until 2015.It is not unusual to feel perfectly healthy for years and suddenly suffer from the effects of mesothelioma or asbetosis and be dead in weeks or months. There are mitigating factors such as genetics and lifetme exposure and smoking, but who wants to play roulette, esp with those students' lives? This is real - and serious - schitt.When Ian and i got married in March, he was the heaviest at 220# (six feet tall) and happiest i've known him. But there was a little cough...and seven months later i could lift him to put him back in bed when he wandered in delirium. I'm NOT looking for sympathy, but here are two pics taken 2-1/2 months apart to put a human face on how quickly your life can change, even 40 years after the exposure:
I have your picture of the two of you in front of the courthouse on wedding day too.There is plenty he and I disagreed about, but he was a good man, and like you, challenged me to think more deeply.
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There was plenty he and i disagreed about, too! Our first spat was about the welfare state - not money or sex, but the proper role of gov't in social engineering. That he took me seriously enough to get perturbed was a powerful aphrodisiac!
I have to digest that one I guess...;)That anyone could not take you seriously would be a reflection on that person and a danger to their own credibility. But let's save that for another thread.There is a constant barrage of lawyer ads on TV looking for mesilothiemioma clients suggesting that there is a deadline cuttoff date so that anybody who gets sick after that cannot make a claim? What's up with that - if it can hit you forty years after the fact?Bart was telling me that asbestos fibres had been used to weave with other fabric back in ancient Greece to make lamp wicks that did not burn out fast. The docs back then had identified a wasting disease common to the wick weavers.
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Just a guess here . I would be guessing that the lawyers are working against a date set by a court in a class action suit against some company like W.R. Grace.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I'm not sure if that refers to FAIR, the perenially offered Specter-Leahy bill to kick asbestos-exposed workers in the teeth and bail out the asbestos industry at the expense of the taxpayer. (It's traditional, isn't it, for taxpayers to bail out failed industry?) The plan asks for $140 from the industry for a victims fund, estimated to be at least $160 billion short.There was a FIFO (first-in-first-out) provision, meaning if you didn't jump up and apply tout de suite, you'd get mired in the stampede of claims afterward, though i was not aware of a cut-off date. Maybe States have their own schemes...?I didn't investigate making claims in the US because of Ian's British citizenship, so i'm not up on that, except from hearing the asbestos victims of Libby think that FAIR gives the asbestos industry a walk.
Mike,
Heres a picture of both the diamond shaped tiles and the sq. butt asbestos tiles.
View Image
I know i'm more sensitive to the asbestos issue than most, but i have a pretty good background in it now. 'Non-friable' cement-asbestos soffit material was the stuff that did Ian in, so i feel obligated to throw my two cents in:
Fibers are released from otherwise non-friable materials when it's broken up to dispose of it or to work it. Us old farts might not live long enough to enjoy the effects of mesothelioma or asbestosis, but...isn't this a school? I should think the children's health might be a consideration, regardless of the care that roofers take of themselves. The felt beneath such tiles may also contain asbestos.
Interestingly, according to the USGS, asbestos is still being imported into the US, though no longer mined here. 80% of it is used in roofing products. http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/asbestos/asbesmcs04.pdf
Yes it is a school, K-12 about a hundred to a hundred and ten students and 30-40 staff ( OK I exaggerate) somebody will have a major job disposing and tearing this off and away!
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Both roofing and hospice care are major jobs. No sense making more work for the nurses and lawyers if we don't have to.
I'm very glad that you're having the material tested for Walter and that Southbay is so generous with his expertise. What a talented and generous bunch populates this place!
Splinter,
Testing is superfuous here. That material will come back positive without a doubt.
Checked in on " working on my own place " lately ??
Walter
I've been a silent witness to your garage project. I wasn't sure how i felt about the wider slates next to the skylight, but they are growing on me. I have a NIB remaindered skylight from another house and i'm becoming terribly conflicted about making a little garden shed with Hardie shingles instead of sheetrocking the basement this summer!!! I've been pondering a roof in the shape of a sliding dovetail joint...still musing on the angles and whether to have pins or tails higher. <G>
It sure looks like transite asbestos-cement from these photos. Send me a sample in a plastic baggie and I'll analyze it, gratis. Since this is a school, they may already have had it tested. Schools were required to have all indoor materials tested, but many have knowledge of exterior materials.Walter and Splintergroupie are correct. This asbestos-cement products will definitely put plenty of fibers into the air if not handled properly. This roof will have to be removed by a licensed abatement contractor with certified handlers (workers). Also, pay attention to what is inside below the roof. Pieces can fall through gaps in the sheathing.Bart Gallagher
Enviroscience Consultants, Inc.
2150 Smithtown Avenue
Ronkonkoma, NY 11779
(631) 580-3191
Thanks, I can do that. I know they had an engineering study done just to be able to consider whether to save the old school with its heritage legacy or to disband and send the kids off to a mainland school or to build new. Looks like they plan to re-up right where it is now.Was it you that tested a sample of attic insulation for me a couple years ago?
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Yes. We tested that insulation sample for you. We are environmental health and safety consultants with a federal and New York State approved asbestos laboratory.The project architect should have had an asbestos inspection done prior to preparing bid specifications.
I don't doubt that it was tested by that engineering firm already, but your report should be educational for us here, even if as Walter says, it is not really necessary for his purposes. He was interested in re-laying slate, not re-roofing asbestos.
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The Asbestos Hazard Emergency Response Act (AHERA) regulates the management of asbestos materials in all public and private, K-12 schools. Exterior materials are not required to be included in AHERA management plans. But they are required to be identified when renovation or demolition work could potentially disturb a material. So yes, the architect or engineer should have had the shingles and any underlayment (tarpaper, flashing) tested.BTW, other exterior building materials that commonly contain asbestos include asphalt based roofing and flashing, roofing cement, window/door caulks and glazing compounds, stucco, and of course the transite asbestos-cement items in the form of pipe, panels (flat and corrugated) and shingles.By the Way Way, for NYS school projects, we are now required to also test caulking for PCBs.As for Walter saying the testing is superfluous because the material definitely looks positive; yes, we can oftentimes just look at a material and know that it will be positive. But clients, especially those spending public money, need confirmation. And sometimes a material is not ACM, resulting in big savings.With all the high fiber diet jokes flying lately, can anyone guess what the drinking water standard for asbestos is? It is in fibers per liter. I think the answer will surprise many.Bart
Bart, is it still 7 million fibers per liter?
Considering that a lot of the country has transite pipe (asbestos cement) for water mains, I really haven't seen any concern or concerted effort to replace them. And even when they are replaced, they are either left abandoned or crushed in place.
Regarding the AHERA surveys, all of the ones I commissioned or did myself, also considered the outside of the building as well. Especially since a lot of the siding was transite siding.
Just another regulation that was well intentioned, but short sighted.
Impossible is an opinion.
Right. 7 million fibers/liter. One would think you would be drinking a milkshake. But, the high number illustrates just how small an asbestos fiber can be. Which is what makes asbestos dangerous. The small fibers are inhaled deeply into the alveoli (the air-sacs where gas exchange happens). The body can't really defend against the stone fibers and the alveoli become thickened and scarred, resulting in decreased lung function - asbestosis. Or fibers may pass through the lung and become lodged in the mesothelium (the lining of the chest and abdomen) resulting in cancer - mesothelioma.Unfortunately, plenty of people are affected by asbestos disease.So, what you can't see, can hurt you.Bart
Enviroscience Consultants, Inc.
thanks for the info... always enlightening hanging out hereMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"I have an intense dislike for historic distict zoning... or mybe it's just the jerks who wind up on those boards"
Interesting to learn that I was a jerk for over ten full yearsBut then again, I guess it applies to everyone, huh?Jeff
ackshally, no.... but 1 i 7 or 1 in 5 doesn't help much on the scales of justiceu mean to tell me that the boards you served on were staffed by intellligent life ?not my experience.... mine is that conservation boards, historic district zoning , and most planning boards attract the wrong peoplefor that matter .... maybe it's just a reflection of the political processand yes.... i've been there and done that...Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"u mean to tell me that the boards you served on were staffed by intellligent life ?"
Very much so.
Still a good group.
And I'm no more a jerk than you are .... just sayin' ... ;o)
Jeff
Edited 5/1/2008 9:45 pm ET by Jeff_Clarke
Bart, Thanks for calling yesterday with the results.You are a real professional with a lot of good background knowledge you could share with folks here. Don't be scarce.
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Thanks Paul,Yes the cement roof shingle sample does indeed contain asbestos. About 13%. As it contains more than 1% it is a regulated asbestos material. Just got the results out of QC and typing. You said it is OK to post them so here they are.Anyone removing or disturbing these shingles is required to have training and use appropriate work practices.Though this is exterior work, the inside of the building (especially under the roof) must be protected. You don't want debris falling through gaps in the sheathing.
Thanks.
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Southbay, i see your file lists chrysotile asbestos as the contaminant. Is that a catch-all term or do you get into the weeds with assessing if the chrysotile itself is contaminated with other types (and how much) of so-called 'amphibole' asbestos like tremolite, chrocidolite, etc.?
Briefly:
"Asbestos" is a term that describes a group of fibrous minerals that includes Chrysotile, Amosite, Crocidolite, Actinolite, Anthophyllite, and Tremolite. The term is derived from ancient greek meaning "in-destructive" or similar. Chrysotile is the serpentine asbestos that is by far the most widely used in building materials. The other minerals are in the amphibole family. Serpentine and amphibole refer to morphology (shape). To complicate things a bit, there are asbestiform (fibrous) and non-asbestiform versions of these minerals. They have the same chemical composition, but have either a fibrous or crystalline structure. Though there is some controversy on which asbestos minerals are more dangerous, the asbestos regulations address all six asbestiform minerals. I believe all asbestiforms can be harmful.
Thanks for that pdf, i hadn't seen it before.I guess my query wasn't clear. I wondered in the particular assessment you did for Paul whether you had broken the kinds of asbestos you find down any further into subgroups. Having read that one type of asbestos often contaminates another, i considered that maybe you lump all types of asbestos under the most prevalent type for your report. I'm curious if you break it down further as to type of asbestos, or if you measure just the percentage of "asbestos". I'll have to research more on the controversy as to which types are more harmful. I'd thought it was accepted that the chrysotile, bad as it is, was actually one of the less deadly types. My late mate told me his bosses told him only the 'blue' asbestos could hurt a guy; the 'white' stuff was harmless. An abandoned sawmill in the center of Missoula burned the day my husband was getting a CT scan of his lungs. The newspapers reported that the asbestos was chrysotile so residents need not be worried if some of the fall-out landed on them, just brush it off. Talk about insult to injury...
Yes. Our laboratory would identify the different asbestos minerals, by percent, if present in a sample. Chrysotile was the only asbestos mineral isolated in Piffin's sample. The chrysotile was an ingredient in the manufactured shingle. Like fiberglass in a Corvette body, the chrysotile was used as a binder to strengthen the portland cement. Since asbestos is naturally occurring, I guess that one type of asbestos could "contaminate" another, but sometimes different asbestos minerals are intentionally incorporated into a building material. Usually though, a material contains one type of asbestos. Asbestos is not generally classified as a contaminant in building materials that were intentionally made with asbestos. Asbestos does indeed 'contaminate' other materials, such as Tremolite in the Montana vermiculite mines. (See Libby Montana).
Edited 5/4/2008 8:02 pm ET by Southbay
Thanks for the further explanation. "Contaminate" was too specific a word; i meant that one type of asbestos predominated, mixed with lesser quantities of the other. I forget where i read that the different types of asbestos are often found together - no matter.
Ian worked as a project manager in Saudi Arabia for seven years during their building boom in the 80s. He said he was not aware of it being used on any of his jobs, but he wasn't aware of it NOT being used, either. I've googled and found that Saudi is one of the countries to ban the use of asbestos.
Hey Piffin... heres a quick test...hold a lighter or a torch to the fibers ... if they wilt, those specific fibers are not asbestos, But there could be some micro/minute fibers imbedded, there for a need to be sent off for testing.
If the fibers just glow red and do not wilt those fibers are asbestos, and there is no need for further testing.
...paul...
Paul,
I responded in the Waiting thread too.
I was licensed a couple years ago to remove and dispose of this stuff.
It's non friable, but you still have to suit up, keep it wet, and put it in a 6 mil. double lined container for disposal.
It's a big job to get it to the point of installing a new roof.
Thanks again.
I'll buy lunch when you're ashore.
Walter
Piffin, does the school have an AHERA survey?
Ask. I hope they have one.
All the information should be there for you as well as the management plan for the roof material in question if it is ACM.
Hope that helps.
Impossible is an opinion.
This post rocks my foundation. I thought you were the answer to everything construction.
I've been over four years and I dont think I remember you asking a question like this. :>)
I thought you knew everything.
consider it a rhetorical Q for discussion purposes.
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I agree you have to test to verify its content, one percent or more and you are under OSHA and EPA rules. Good news is that roofing materials are almost always nonfriable or intact...asbestos abatement contractor is not necessary but a roofing contractor with asbestos authorized workers and competent person to do a negative exposure assessment is needed. Also check local rules for permits and disposal. No wetting necessary, breakage must be minimized and all material must be lowered from roof not dropped. So, crew cannot just start ripping this material off if it comes back asbestos. Test first and you'll know if you have to be more restrictive in your tear-off methods.
Harry,
Regulations of Maine DEP stipulate that roofing containing asbestos must be kept wet during the removal process.
Yes, Slateman, some localities tighten the federal rules, New York state being the most restrictive probably, so always best to check those local requirements. Often there is a provision not to wet because water and roofs don't go well together.
because water and roofs don't go well together
I thought the purpose of the roof was to deal with the water. If we didn't have rain, there wouldn't be a need for a roof. "Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
You got me FE, I should have said roof tearoff but also I'm alluding to wet roofs as impacts worker safety...no reason to sweat the asbestos if you've fallen 20 feet off the wet roof...
It's not the fall off the roof that hurts, it's when you come to a sudden stop at the bottom."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
But you don't normally do a tear-off when it is raining. The requirement to keep it misted means creating rain while you are tearing the raincoat off.
Kind of counter-intuitive, ain't it? Like many government programs. par for the course.
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we both know the rains wait in hiding for the tear offs to commence...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Edited 4/28/2008 8:37 pm by IMERC
watch out! There's one hiding behind that tree over there, sneaking up on you!
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it was snow...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!