Summer Tiiiiiiiiime, and the roofin’ is eeeeee-zzzzzeeeeee….
Except for that nasty looking low pressure system the weatherman can’t quite decide is going to hit you or not–to start or not to start, that is the question….
Actually, the question is this: On a re-roofing job involving a tear-off, where because of the size and/or shape/condition of the roof it simply cannot be stripped and recovered in one day, is the roofer responsible for water damage to the inside of the house in the event of a surprise thunderstorm or does the HO accept this risk as part of the nature of such a job?
I am currently on a very steep (25 in12) roof where the surrounding terrain prohibits the use of man-lifts so we’re leap-frogging up the roof on 60-degree roof jacks shimmed out with a 1×3 under the heel to get the scaffolding board flat. It takes us a solid hour to pull and re-install the roof jacks each time we finish a section and need to move up. I told the HO before we accepted the job that it would take two days to strip each side, and two days to insulate and place the steel roofing. I also warned her that tarps are tarps–not roofs, and that if mother nature so decreed, she was gonna have water coming in for a visit. I gave her a roll of poly sheeting and said, cover anything that absolutely can’t get wet. She said okay.
What’s everybody’s take on this? I’ve got no problem with this client; it’s just the situation that makes me start thinking ‘worst-case scenarios’ for the future….
Dinosaur
‘Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Replies
I always considered it my responsibility to be sure that no water entered the house from the day that I set foot on the roof to start.
I either refused untanable circumstances, worked from dawn to dark, developed methods to deal with it, prayed a lot, or hoped that my insurance was good.
Never had to find out.
Excellence is its own reward!
Workers on a nearby addition kept a monster tarp on the side of the house with ropes handy to pull the sucker into place at a moments notice. ...that's not a mistake, it's rustic
Okay, that's basically always been my position: I touch it, it's my responsibility. I was just kind of wondering if I was taking on more than the 'industry standard' since I have a tendancy to do that....
I always tarp, if in any doubt whatsoever. In this particular case, the tarp is a 30x40 mother and the only way to hang it was for me to 'ride' the roof ridge back and forth with full pouch, hammer, and an armful of 14-foot 1x3's. Took half an hour minimum and I don't think I've ever had a worse case of sewing-machine leg. The bloody tarp is staying up there until I put the ridge cap in place, by bog!
But we all know tarps 'sorta' keep the rain out--so I know where you're coming from with all that praying....
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
I sub roofs. My sub and I have worked together a long time and have had a few misteps. He handles or is responsible for any repairs from water infiltration during the job. Dan
You are responsible for any water damage. I would do my best to waterproof the exposed roof with tarps and put in an allowance in the price to cover the risk of a failure of this protection. You have done a great job of preparing the HO and this is probably the most important thing to do. It will let you reach a mutually acceptable solution to the problem by preparing everyone for the risk. This straight forward approach in always the best way.
On a job like that I would start from the top and strip a section and shingle it then move down to next section and do the same roofing from the top down isn't hard once you get the hang of it. In response to your first question, if he's responsible he'll be responsible, if I want to do reroofs I have to have a separate policy in addition too my contractors liability, they wacked me with that 4 yrs ago after our bad ice storm all I do now is mt own new work.
Re-read the original post. He's installing STEEL roofing. Good advise if it was an asphalt shingle job, though.
he's adding insulation too, so he has to take a whole section at one time. sectional shet good, horizontal furring, and vertical metal, make it a headache, I'm sure..
Excellence is its own reward!
Yup--headache is the word. I've got two of my best guys on this job with me, and neither one is comfortable up above the first eight-foot staging. I won't have a man on a roof--or anywhere else--if he's not comfortable; that's just looking for trouble. SO, I'm up on the 'wall' pretty much all day and they're feeding me. What with the crib, insulation, furring, and so forth, they've got plenty to do on the ground. I'd put a fourth guy on if I could find one who could work happily on this blinkin' cliff--but I can't.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
dino.... i like the roof from the top down... but your metal screws that pooch..
have you looked at the new underlayment fabrics on the market now ?
the one we've been using is RoofTopGuard II... comes in 5' x 200' rolls.. and a roll weighs less than a roll of 15 lb. felt
you apply it with roofing tins , and it seals around the nails, and it's tear proof, and you can leave it exposed for 6 months and it costs about $150 a roll...
i will not do reroofs again without it
here's some pics of it in use... Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
ok , so i got confused about the photo... here's the one i meant to postMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Yer sounding like a snake oil salesman drumming for a new wonder drug - but that's what that stuff is. I've used it because of your recommendations here and WOW, am I impressed!.
Excellence is its own reward!
yeah, now how do u buy stock in finnish company ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I'm not at all a roofer but I was very impressed the first time I ever saw that RoofTopGuard.com (here's a link for anyone interested in learning more about it) being used maybe a year or so ago. Didn't at all surprise me that it came from Finland. The very first construction job I ever had was working for a company made up of Finns. After working with them for a few years through college when I went to work for other "American" companies they all scoffed or "corrected" me on what I had learned from them.
Not only are the Finns leaders in building science technology I find that now 24 years later that I'm studying Finnish construction management technique and lean production thinking too(Lean Construction—Lauri Koskela).
Mike how and when did you first find out about that stuff? While I don't know about their roofing underlayment have you ever heard of or used any Fortifiber products? We use their Seekure paper to protect the floors and other surfaces in our installations instead of red rosin paper which rips very easily and can impart a stain to the surface it protects if it ever get wet. The stuff is so tough that we even save it at times and use it over again.
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"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead
Stephen Hazlett put me on to it.. and my roofing supply company ordered some for me .... there are a couple of similar products available alsoMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Stephen Hazlett,... it figures, why am I not surprised by that.
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"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead
Mike
We use IceGard stickum paper now for low-pitch roofs, but usually only for the first 3-6 feet from the eaves up. It's pressure sensitive, totally waterproof and self-healing, and has the most amazing glue you ever saw: just touch the stuff to naked plywood and try to pull it up a couple of seconds later--the top ply of the plywood will shred and come up with it. It costs about 33 cents per SF, so it's about twice as expensive as your stuff, but it goes down in a flash with no nails or tins at all, so it might wind up being cheaper.
I never thought of using it to keep rain out during the job, though--not sure how I'd justify the extra cost to the HO. Maybe if I told him how much time we spend each day #$%?&*( around with the #$%?%$ tarps...!
Still, on the job I'm on right now it wouldn't have done any good anyway; it took us two days just to pull the chimney and strip the shingles off one side. We'd still have had to tarp it for that first overnight. We're now at the point where the tarps don't fit worth a hoot anyway, but tonight looks clear--or did a few hours ago. Tomorrow the good lord willin' and the creek don't rise we'll lay the tin on the first side.... 8' sections; gotta shingle up the roof anyway but working sideways from 30-foot ladders. Good thing I've got long arms....
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Look at the cost of tarps, putting them on, taking them off, etc. The bituthane or rooftopguard (which I'm definately going to try to locate in my area) is cheap comparatively. I've used it in valleys and for temporary flashings for years. I hardly wake up when it thunderstorms at night anymore.
I tried asking my local lumberyard about it the first time you posted a picture of it - Even took a copy of the picture in to them.
They've never heard of it, and don't know where to get it.
The stuff intrigues me though, so I'll keep trying..........I refuse to be intimidated by reality anymore. What is reality? Nothing but a collective hunch. [Lily Tomlin]
Except for the joists... Nothing like that around here. The tin taps stopped them too. LOL.
I'd still strip and bitch, in both forms, from the top down, at least then it's weather tight and no wrasslin with tarps, which are only good when it doesn't rain. These are things you do when you work for youse3lf by yourself.
Is Roofer Responsible for Rain Damage? Absolutely and you be very wise to think about and consider the possibilities beyond just what could obviously considered rain damage. Let's say it rains and while things inside the house get wet there is no "obvious rain damage" that needs to be repaired after things dry out. However a year or two later the homeowner discovers they now have a toxic mold problem, you could be toast if you are deemed negligent in effort to protect the house against water damage. Better check with you insurance carrier too to see what you are actually covered for.
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"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead
No point checking with my insurance company; I'm self-insured. But that thought about 'toxic mould' is scary. I don't know if it would play here in Canada, but I don't want to find out the hard way. I think I'll go to http://www.weatheroffice.ec.gc.ca-data-satellite-goes_ecan_1070_100.jpg and see how close trouble is....Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Couldn't tell you anything about Canada regarding the litigation and laws around toxic mold but yeah it is worth checking out to see what your risk is. Hey we do interiors but given what I've been reading about it lately I'm asking questions about what my risk and coverage is.
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"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead
Yes.
Most roofers I use in remodels warranty this and have on the premises a 50 foot blue tarp(s) just for this purpose. If rain is threatening, then the roof is covered before they leave. If it is as clear as a bell, and no rain is expected at all, then the tarp is left on the premises. The HO is instructed to call a cell phone if rain is suddently threatens. The roofer drops everything to cover the home in such an event.
I expect my roofer to pay me (read the HO) for all drywall damage. That is is my contract with him.
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934