Replies

1. 
   WayneL5 | Jan 24, 2004 08:54pm | #1

   It should be torn off and done properly.  It probably voids the warranty.  It's asking for trouble with leaks.  The contractor should not charge any more to do this.  Even in the absence of a written contract, there is an implied contract that work performed shall be done in a workmanlike manner, and in accordance with manfacturer's instructions, so he legally has to do the job properly.

2. 
   DaveMason2 | Jan 24, 2004 09:55pm | #2

    It definitely voids the warranty.

    It always amazes me that some people will exclude something so cheap, easy and important.

    I would ask him to redo it right, but I doubt he will now that the roofing is on. Which means that she will have to complain to the BBB, the city , county and everybody that ask about her addition.She may have to get somebody else to do it right.

                                                                              Good Luck, Dave

3. 
   MojoMan | Jan 24, 2004 10:19pm | #3

   One more thing to check: Did he put ice and water barrier around the skylights, lapping up on the frame?

   Al Mollitor, Sharon MA

1. 
   TommH | Jan 25, 2004 01:32am | #7

   He hasn't quite gotten to the skylite yet; I will insist he does it right.

4. 
   MojoMan | Jan 24, 2004 10:21pm | #4

   One more thing...Ironically, since the sunroom is unheated, ice and water barrier may not be needed, but felt is certainly a good idea.

   Al

1. 
   TommH | Jan 25, 2004 01:55am | #9

   Re the ice and water shield: I thought the same thing, but was glad to see it when the materials were delivered. He's also venting the roof at the ridge, putting in soffet vents, etc. Which makes the absence of the felt all the more surprising.

5. 
   AdamB | Jan 24, 2004 10:41pm | #5

   your friend should do the following:

   1 call the owner of the roofing firm / contractor and ask them if this is an issue that the manufacture instructions were not followed.  Follow this up with a simple letter stating the problem and that you want them to fix the roof install ASAP and that you want a call back in 5 business days to deal with the scheduling.

   2 if the roofing contractor won't take care of the problem (hopefully they will) get quotes from 2 other roofing companies to remove the shingles, add felt and replace with new shingles.

   3 pay a lawyer 100$ to generate a letter to the roofing company saying either spend x dollars fixing the roof correctly, right now or court is going to be an option.

   small caims might be a solution for you but you havn't filled out any info in your profile. so I don't know what state your in.

   Adam

   PS I don't like involving lawyers but somtimes....

6. 
   Isamemon | Jan 24, 2004 11:29pm | #6

   Along with item 1 of suggestion from Adam B the home onwer should state that they are going to contact the supplier (ownes cornings or whomever) to find out if this effects warranty

   or if you do the 100 dollar lawyer letter, hqve them throw that line out too.

1. 
   TommH | Jan 25, 2004 01:49am | #8

   Thanks for all the quick responses. Since I am a lawyer(mea culpa), I can provide the letter. The contractor is a 1 man show in this small town and is doing evberything except the electrical. He apparently enjoys a good reputation, but is set in his ways. He also doesn't like being secondguessed especially by a woman (his client) or a know-it-all diyer(me). He bristled when she asked him to use the new tyvek window sill rubberized flashing before installing the windows, saying it wasn't necessary. I will be interested to hear his explanation for not using the felt despite the directions on the packaging(which he conviently left lying around) and the minimal time and $ involved.

1. 
   Piffin | Jan 25, 2004 10:12pm | #10

   This one is always lots of fun.

   If you search the archives here, you can find a lot of comments and background.

   It will void the warrantee without a doubt.

   It is there primarily as a backup layer for moisture that is windblown or backed up in ice conditions.

   Odds are that for the application you are describuing, it will mnot leak, except for the area immediately around and below the skylights.

   being a lawyer, you know the best way to proceed, but here is my take on it.

   I would adress him a written instrument and deliver it in timely manner with witness of the date.

   It should document that the manufacturers instructions and codes require felt underlayment and that the owner expects the shingles to be applied in a manner consistent with the manufactureres specific requirements as to coverage, nail placement, and underlayment.

   After that there is no need to be overwrought and emotionally involved. She can step back and let him proceed in whatever way he chooses, but when the bill is presented, she should withhold the value ( determine this by comnpetitive bidding or estimates from other roofers) of the roofing replacement.

   If he fails to do the work right, he forfeits the payment for so doing. That is his choice.

   After that, it is her decision whether to have the shingels replaced or to wait to see if they leak.

   I don't normally give advice like this, given that there are always shades of interpretation in codes and relationships, but this guy is taking a shortcut that benefits nobody for his own benefit. He will be taking other shortcuts as well, not only on this job but other places.

   .

   Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   gdavis62 | Jan 25, 2004 10:56pm | #11

   Read the fine print, as Mr Micro always does.

   Some shingle manufacturers permit direct application of shingles to sheathing, no felt required, provided that the pitch exceeds a stated minimum.

   Go to Certainteed's site, for example, and download the .pdfs for installation and warranty.  While underlayment is "required" for low slope roofs (defined as under 4/12), it is only "suggested" for average pitch ones (between 4 and 21 pitch).

   I first caught wind of this from a guy I know who was about to have his sub begin roofing a spec being built on the cheap.  "Felt?" says I.  "Nah, the shingle rep says they will warrant it without, if the pitch is enough."

   Edited 1/25/2004 3:09:20 PM ET by Mr. Micro

1. 
   Piffin | Jan 25, 2004 11:10pm | #12

   AHA, Mr Mico! True point, but, The facts presented here state that indeed the particular shingles being applied do require the felt.

   the problem here is a little complex. For a 3/12 pitch over a living space, I would say take the guy out and hang him.

   In this application, odds are good that it won't ever actually cause a leak but i n twenty years when the shingles are shjowing their wear and only a few drops of water are penetrating them, the deterioration of the sheathing will be accelerated and add to the cost of roof replacement, or the roof will need replacement earlier than later, again, a cost to the homeowner.

   Personally, Id' just tell the guy to do it right if he wants to get paid..

   Excellence is its own reward!

2. 
   gdavis62 | Jan 25, 2004 11:35pm | #13

   Micro is playing devil's advocate here, in this case the devil being the asphalt shingle manufacturer.

   The original poster here, TOMMH, has not specifically said the manufacturer requires felt under the shingles on this 5/12 roof, in order for a product warranty to be valid.  TOMMH has only made a reference to "instructions on the packaging."

   The shingle might be Certainteed's, in which case the packaging instructions might be "suggesting" felt for this "average" pitch roof, instead of "requiring" it.

   If it were my job, the specs would have called out everything, and this roofing job would be ripped off and done right.  But in this case we may be talking about hardball skinflint contractor versus naieve homeowner, no specs, no contract, and Mr Hardball holding her feet to the fire on this, perhaps waving some Certainteed printed matter.

   Best of luck to all involved.

3. 
   TommH | Jan 26, 2004 10:25pm | #15

   Thanks for all the input. You are right about the contract...he didn't want to bother with one, but eventually prepared one with no specs at all. The latest is that she pointed it out to him and he told her that he used felt on the completed side and simply hadn't gotten around to putting it on the other side. This of course is pure b.s....I checked this out by lifting the edges of the shingles along the gable end and there was nothing but plywood. Further, on the uncompleted side, the shingles  go right up to the edge of the ice and water shield, so felt couldn't be overlapped. Tellingly, in the same breath he told her that felt isn't necessary, doesn't do anything etc. I'd have a lot more respect for him if he simply stated that he didn't use it for those reasons. Also, he screwed himself , since she also needs a bathroom done over and was considering using him.

4. 
   WayneL5 | Jan 27, 2004 02:42am | #16

   Obviously, he is dishonest, so she should have no reservations about forcing him as hard as necessary to fix it or pay up.  If it's painful for him, too bad.

5. 
   gdavis62 | Jan 27, 2004 02:44am | #17

   Advise her to not give him the bathroom remodel.  He would probably skip the wax seal for the new toilet, plumber's putty in the drain in the new sink, a membrane under the new tile shower, etc., etc.  He has already shown his colors by skipping the roofing felt.

7. 
   roofdoc | Jan 26, 2004 08:40pm | #14

   I think you find most codes require that felt is used maybe the inspector just overlooked it , also one picture tells a thousand words so I would suggest taking it for documentation.The fact that he is using the ice and water shield  tells you that he knows the proper installation.As for the use of felt it is a fairly cheap insurance policy at  .05 cents per sq foot so it not going to break guys bid.I have always found that if they cheat on something this cheap what are they doing and the high end stuff

8. 
   rasconc | Jan 27, 2004 05:06am | #18

   The JLC Field Guide to residential construction calls for single layer of 15# felt under 4/12 or steeper.  More serious prep on shallower pitches.