Looking for some input on bamboo floor install. First of all the client has purchased a house, she want’s the floor delivered & installed on the move in day. My concern is the acclimatization. If she insists on putting it down, would engineered flooring be a good option?
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She's only right if she signs a waiver saying you told her this was a bad idea. More time is always better with pre-finished (i assume pre-finished, anyway) flooring. If it came out of China in some sub-tropical factory just after finish, there's no way it won't shrink up in the states during heating season. It'll leave gaps and she'll tell you its your fault.
"A wrongdoer is often a man who has left something undone, not always one who has done something."--Marcus Aurelius
signing a waiver simply tells the judge or magistrate that you knew beforehand that what you did was wrong.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Bottom line is a bad is a bad idea, I agree with you, and I'd turn down the job. Maybe this guy's starving and could use the work.But I dunno about that characterization of the judge... My old man's a judge, and if a contractor walked into his courtroom with such a document, I'm pretty sure he'd thump the homeowner over the head with the paper and say, "He told you so."-duke
I'd like to believe most judges would know better.
But I know of once case personally where those were the judges exact words to the contractor.
You'd think the GC's honesty and buyer beware would prevail.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
>>signing a waiver simply tells the judge or magistrate that you knew beforehand that what you did was wrong.Having a little trouble with the word "waiver" are we?Since you advocate going with experts:"1: the act of intentionally relinquishing or abandoning a known right, claim, or privilege ; also : the legal instrument evidencing such an act"http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/waiverNice try at "common sense" lawyering.FWIW: Lawyers, especially litigators, love guys like you
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
Nice try at "common sense" lawyering.
thanks. I'll tell that to the guy who lost the case in front of the magistrate.
I'm sure it'll make him feel better.
"hey, a home inspector from the internet said you have a rock solid case, can't lose!"
maybe you should email the magistrate and straighten him out too.
everyone knows the world world bows to Bob's Law.
all I know is he ended up tearing out that the customer demanded him install, and rebuilt it his originally planned way ... all out of his own pocket. And he was told word for word ... signing that paper shows that you knew it was the wrong thing to do before you did it.
Jeff
"FWIW: Lawyers, especially litigators, love guys like you"
Lotsa people like me Bob ... I'm a likable guy. Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I'll tell that to the guy who lost the case in front of the magistrate.
======That's part of the problem - in Pennsylvania we have magistrates, political appointees that often have little or no legal training.If your guy had appealed to a "real" court, the decision would almost certainly have been overturned. However, there is a cost associated with appealing - which is why it often doesn't make economic sense to do so.
is the customer always right?
Nope!
and in more cases than not ... they're wrong.
that's why they hire us ... the professionals.
and everytime I fail to remember that ... I find myself wishing I had.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Is the customer always right?
No. But it's our job to make them think they are.
That's why it's such a challenge.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Tell her the materials have to be delivered to the site at least 48-72 hours ahead of installation, and explain why. Then, if she really wants the stuff installed 'on move in day'--I assume that means the day of the closing--explain that it's up to her to make arrangements with the seller to grant you access beforehand so you can deliver and spread out the materials.
Set the whole thing down in writing, and don't leave anything out that could turn 'round and bite ya on the bum later. (Materials to be paid for in advance; material not returnable once packaging opened; installer will not commence installation before the official closing; client to obtain seller's written permission for installer's access to premises before closing (dates/times specified); if sale of house fails at closing for any reason, installer not responsible for client's material in seller's possession etc., etc.)
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
I don't know where it came from, but the idea that anyone is right by virtue of the fact that they are paying you is asinine. You are two adults dispassionately discussing a subject about which you know more than her. She may disagree with your advice and do what she wants, but that in no way makes her right.
The tool company Lee Valley has an interesting take on this. They say their policy is to treat customers like friends - and that includes telling them when they are being unreasonable.
Get engineered. See if it can be delivered one week prior to delivery day (assuming the home is properly heated). Open up the boxes and let them sit there to acclimate until install day. Tell her otherwise it will need to be ripped out later.
"Preach the Gospel at all times; if necessary, use words." - St. Francis of Assisi
thanx for the reply. I've tried to talk her into advanced delivery, but the current homeowmers are being weaners.
The case histories here are at least amusing..... You guys would make great TV lawyers because the stories just don't hold water in the real world of law.
If you can't write a contract to cover your butt from customers that want the impossible.... you shouldn't be in this business.
"If you can't write a contract to cover your butt from customers that want the impossible.... you shouldn't be in this business."Consumer legislation varies quite a bit. Places like Quebec have what might be termed very "progressive" laws which make signing contracts that limit a consumer's rights very difficult. Courts generally do not allow the two parties to contract away the established legal rights or obligations of either side.
Ah Quebec the wingnut capital of Canada bar none ( my dad and his family came from there years ago ) even have a lake there named after us , i think the language police missed it !
Nice. What's it called? Quebec has some wonderful place names. There is a town on the St. Laurence called St. Luis du Ha Ha. And they liked Pope Pie 1X so much they have two metro stations named after him, which can cause some confusion to visitors.Wingnuts? Maybe, but then I wake up hungry I wish I was back in Montreal.
the name of the lake is " Straby Lake " just above Poltimore Quebec
was still named as such a year ago when i was there for a family reunion
its a former german polish settlement from years gone by !
Is moving day the same day as the closing? She should get possession at the closing.
If it's the same day: have the flooring delivered that day, and tell her you will be back in one week for the installation.
"Preach the Gospel at all times; if necessary, use words." - St. Francis of Assisi
Thanks, Steve in Cleveland! The customer has agreed to wait the one week. So turns out the customer is right....when she listens to the contractor!! :)
Btw, love the St. Francis quote -- a great one to live by!
Glad you got the project. Hope it goes well.
St. Francis wuz da man. :)
"Preach the Gospel at all times; if necessary, use words." - St. Francis of Assisi
a salesman told a guy i know he dident have to pay for a house lot of windows till he was satisified so being cheap he was never satisified
owner of company went to visit him to see why he wasent paying the bill . when he heard his answer he told him in no uncertain terms to " GET SATISIFIED " and left with a good check
having met the company owner i figure he would of squared up the guys head had he still not been satisfied !
" the customer is always right when they are right (rarely )
Most engineered wood also requires acclimatization.
Dupont's high end laminate is the only product I know of which doesn't.
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
Have her supply materials. Spell out in contract exactly what you are reponsible for and what's her responsiblity.
The issue is going to be whether or not the flooring is close to the same MC as the subfloor, and what the conditions are like in the house. Where the material is manufactured makes no difference at all--I have a load of oak flooring acclimating right now, it was made in China and came in at 5% MC, too low to install, so it's sitting there waiting to pick up moisture, and I am humidifying the room. I am not familiar with checking the MC of bamboo flooring, but I would talk to the manufacturer and see if you can use a typical moisture meter. If the material is at 7-8% MC and the subfloor is about the same, and the RH in the house is controlled for average conditions, you are probably safe to install. The manufacturer and/or their rep should have good info about this and you should talk to them.
Bottom line, do not install overly dry or overly damp material, do not install over a subfloor that is much different than the flooring, and do not install if humidity in the building is not controlled.
Duzn't this void the warranty on the flooring? If so, I would show this warranty info to the client along with the other suggestions.
I once had a client that insisted he wanted a tube TV hung over his bath tub. Wife couldn't talk him out of it, nor could the interior desecrator. I didn't want to do it either.
Finally told him, 'We can do it, but we have to have a waiver signed by you, you wife and your attorney".
Customer got a bit outraged, 'what is the problem, how much can a tv weigh, even if it falls, what's the worst that can happen, I get a broken leg?"
I then explained that even if the TV was unplugged, there was enough stored voltage to electrocute him.
Customer got a strange look, all he said was "oh". That was the last we heard about it.
Some people only believe sumthin when they think they understand, no matter how much other people tell them, so educate your client.
Good luck.
I have to agree with Jeff Buck on this one.
A tile setter I use had a situation where GC and owner wanted tiles on a substrate that was unsuitable. Tile guy says no go, the tiles will crack for sure. GC insists and persists and tile guy proceeds over the cracked substrate.
Months later GC calls tile guy, by the way those tiles cracked and you have to redo them. Tile guy says , get stuffed or something like that.
Tile guy gets sued.
In court judge asks tile guy: Did you know about and express your concerns and reservations about the substrate? Yes he says. Pay the GC says the judge next case please.
Tile guy asks judge why he lost, judge asked him if the GC told him to go jump in the lake would he. No of course not because it would be stupid to do so. So why did you proceed when you knew it to be a stupid course of action asked the judge.
If you are a professional and call yourself one no waiver can eliminate your liability for performing inappropriate work.
There is no right way to do the job wrong, ever.
If it is not right, inform whomever, and walk away or insist it be done correctly according to all current and relevant techniques.
The safest thing to do is to stick to the manufacturers' suggested installation methods so as to avoid any voiding of the warranty. My guess is that the manufacturer has so many stipulations voiding the warranty they are almost begging you to do it incorrectly.
Just my 2c worth, but I would have the customer sign a waiver, do the job and get paid. However, I'm pretty much starving right now, so take that in perspective.
~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools - BuildersTools.net
See my work - TedsCarpentry.com
No the customer is not allways right but they are still the customer..........
On a hill by the harbour