Is There Such a Thing as Cheap Paint?
First, a tale of two paints.
I got a 5 gallon pail of the same (extremely cheap) paint used by a new home developer. The stuff turned out to be thin (almost watery), and took many, many coats to cover anything but pristine drywall.
Another time, I ran out of (decent)paint near the end of a job – on a Sunday evening, no less. A neighbor offers a can of his paint. This stuff was literally thick enough to cut with a knife- yet it rolled on smooth and easy, and that gallon covered- covered, it seems, twice as much wall as the paint I was using, and covered up everything, without needing even a second coat.
This has me wondering …. is it even possible to control the amount you spend on paint? It almost seems that, regardless of brand, that it will require exactly the same amount of money be spent on the job. If it needs 1 gallon of $100 paint, it seems like it will also use $100 of $20/gal paint.
Replies
Just like wimmin..the ones that don't need layers of make-up are REAL expensive. (G)
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
I'd LOL if it wasn't so true!
May your whole life become a response to the truth that you've always been loved, you are loved and you always will be loved" Rob Bell, Nooma, "Bullhorn"
"We Live" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kuBgh0VCqI&mode=related&search
And Annie Ross's "Twisted" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lqivrCIRGo&mode=related&search=
I've found that ointments and such from the drug store follow the same principle. They say right on the label that the cheaper store brand product is has the same ingredients as the other one. But it's the active ingredients that cost the most. So the generic one has a lot less of the active ingredient. You have to put two, three times as much on.
Can't recall ever buying any ointments ,luckily. But your assertion makes sense.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
I believe the formula for determining the cost effectiveness also needs to include the labor necessary for the five coats of cheep paint. Plus the five rollers, tray liners, five times the cleanup expenses, etc. But I believe the paint manufacturers factor that in when they price the stuff. That's why it's $100/gal.
But did you notice those nice new teflon coated roller trays? No liner necessary (so they say).
If your time isnt worth anything then of course you'd have a legit argument but mine is and I always figure that the cheapest paint is the one that costs the most at the store!
Doug
Doug U
The paint companies know that many people use price as a quailty guide line, That's why I like to cheak Consumer reports when they come wout with their tests of paint.. they not only test for coverage (one part of quality) but they test for fade resistance and ease of cleaning.. (ever notice that some paints stain and get dirty real easy?)
Paint companies are not above coasting once they get a significant market share and sometimes the great paints are just a little thinner or have other issues. after they've been on the top for a while..
So brand loyalty isn't repaid with continuous quality and dependability..
Hence the need to regularly test paints.
Hence the need to regularly test paints.
I get all the free test results that I want, I just ask the painters in the houses that I work in and they'll tell me anything I need to know about quality, price, .............
I'll take that over any of the advice I read in consumer reports, the internet.........where can you possible get better test results!
Doug
DougU
Then you've had a far better exposure to painters than I have.. I hesitate to catagorize any group of people together, but in general the painters I've met in my years in construction have lacked a great deal of judgement and other such qualities..
They are usually at the end of the construction project when most of the budget has been spent (or over spent) They are almost always rushed to an insane level. Get it done usually has priority over durability..
In addition if they want to maintain their contacts and maybe credit line they tend to get it from one store thus price may have a greater priority over other qualities..
Frenchy
I'm lucky in that I dont have to work on a lot of houses where there is a tight budget. Most of the larger ones are on a T&M deal so the painter have no reason to come in and do a quick finish.
The last big house that I worked on I'm guessing that the painters cost on just their part was way into the six figure area. These guys were about the most professional guys on the job, well except for the finish guys, :) but man they were impressive. So yea, I do get to see what some pretty good painters do and think about different brands.
Doug
So what did these terrific painters recommend? I'm a sponge who wants to learn everything possible.
In this particular house they used SW Duration for most everything.
We are building a house right now and I know that the paint that is speced for this particular house is also SW.
I'm sure they are not using SW exclusively but on the two or three jobs that I have seen them on that seams to be the paint of choice.
Doug
>> I get all the free test results that I want, I just ask the painters in the houses that I work in and they'll tell me anything I need to know about quality, price, .............
I'll take that over any of the advice I read in consumer reports, the internet.........where can you possible get better test results! <<
I was getting ready to respond to Frenchy but you typed my response for me. Thanks for saving me the time!!
I'll take that over any of the advice I read in consumer reports, the internet.........where can you possible get better test results!
The problem is that the painters won't be around when the paint fails - so they won't know if the paint lasted 5 years or 10. In addition, a painter only deals with a few gallons of paint - while the labs test enough paint to obtain statistically significant results. You can't know if a painter just got a "good batch" of a "bad paint" - because he can't know.
Thats why lab test results, such as those published in Consumer Reports and other publication will give you better information about paint quality and longevity than any painter will ever be able to give.
While consumer publications are often a good choice for test data when no other source is available, information passed down over the years through tradesmen who work with products daily is, to me, a more reliable source of information.
Certain paint companies, Benjamin Moore for example, have earned respect over several generations of use by professional painters and home owners as well.
While consumer publications are often a good choice for test data when no other source is available, information passed down over the years through tradesmen who work with products daily is, to me, a more reliable source of information.
Paint formulations change often, so data from a year ago may have little bearing on current products.
The other problem is that an individual's experience is anecdotal - it doesn't accurately reflect the behavior of a brand of paint for example, but rather that of one particular can of paint.
So I would disagree that the necessarily limited experience of a trademan is more reliable than objective scientific data, particularly when that experience is more affected by business economics than product quality.
The other problem is that an individual's experience is anecdotal - it doesn't accurately reflect the behavior of a brand of paint for example, but rather that of one particular can of paint.
When a product becomes well known among trades people over several generations, not one individual's experience with one can of paint, that trumps all the so called "science" you can throw at the subject.
Get off your scientific soapbox, you're writing on a message board for trades people. The whole purpose of this endeavor is to share anecdotal evidence from personal experience.
When a product becomes well known among trades people over several generations, not one individual's experience with one can of paint, that trumps all the so called "science" you can throw at the subject.
That's kind of my point - that product the painter used 6 months ago that worked well is likely not the same product they are buying today, even though the name and part number may be the same. Factories constantly change their formulations, for a host of reasons. So often, in this day and age, it really is one individual's experience with one can of paint. :-)
That's kind of my point - that product the painter used 6 months ago that worked well is likely not the same product they are buying today.
Why is the quality likely to have deterioated? That's my point. When a particular company has a generations-old reputation for quality, why would they do anything to their product which would jeopardize the esteem in which it's held in by those whose opinion matters the most??
That would be a more lunatic course of action than the one I'm engaged in here, continuing to argue this point with a person who can't think logically.
Why is the quality likely to have deterioated? That's my point. When a particular company has a generations-old reputation for quality, why would they do anything to their product which would jeopardize the esteem in which it's held in by those whose opinion matters the most??
A lot of reasons for that, actually, and far more common than most folks might imagine.
Just a few of the more common reasons:
1. New management.
2. Pressure from shareholders to show a profit - or a bigger profit - this quarter.
3. Lust for management bonuses.
4. The (often mistaken) belief that the quality is higher than it needs to be for the application.
5. Confusion or misunderstanding about whose esteem matters most - is it the painter's or the customer's view that matters more? How do they know? Have they even talked to the actual customer?
6. Price competition from competitors and big customers (e.g. Walmart tells them they have to hit a price point or Walmart will no longer buy their products).
7. The desire to create more sales by "planned obsolescence".
8. The desire to reduce cost by making fewer different products - so they make one paint and sell it country-wide rather than making different products for different climate regions.
9. Environmental regulations - which is why you can't (legally) buy oil based paint for painting anything other than metal in many states, now. Read this thread - everyone seems to agree that lead based paint outperforms the alternatives - but you can't buy it today. So that is a specific example where "quality" was intentionally reduced.
10. Differing (and/or changing) ideas on what defines "quality" - is it ease of application? Longevity? Cost? Coverage?
The "poster child" for these kinds of things is Sherwin-Williams. They have historically had a pretty good reputation, but their quality has declined significantly in the last few years, to the point that a lot of pro painters around here won't use them.
continuing to argue this point with a person who can't think logically
That comment seems a little unkind and inappropriate. Just because I don't agree with your reasoning doesn't mean I'm not thinking logically - or that you are thinking logically. Just because something doesn't "make sense" to you doesn't mean it's wrong. People who haven't managed manufacturing plants or worked in manufacturing, likely woouldn't know what manufacturing is really like - and the realities of manufacturing I've mentioned above would seem rediculous to them.
That, and there is a big difference between a discussion (an exchange of ideas like we are having) and an argument (an effort to browbeat another into agreeing with your views). I think we are having a nice discussion - and I hope we all learn from the exchange.
Wouldn't that make consumers reports paint tests invalid if the paint is changing all the time? They have not tested the current formulation of paint being sold?
Wouldn't that make consumers reports paint tests invalid if the paint is changing all the time? They have not tested the current formulation of paint being sold?
That is an issue, and one reason that they retest paint so frequently.
There is also the question of whether or not CR is doing valid, objective testing - some have argued that their testing methods are not objective or sufficiently rigorous.
I think the best advice is to consider all the information - lab tests, opinions of good experienced painters (if you can find one - they are really, really hard to find in my area), the advice from independent paint stores, etc., then make your own decision. At the end of the day, you end up having to take your best shot and go with it.
You're pushin' rope.
Some people just won't get it.
Consumers Reports rated Lowe's paint as their best last year. After 22 years of painting it is No. 1 on my list to turn down a job. I will not use it. Junk. Shi7.
You're right.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
What do you mean by "Lowes" paint? I like the valspar paints, especially Duramax. It's not cheap though.
I've posted recently about problems with BM satin impervo oilbase. They don't care to know about it. Severe blotchy yellowing. Whole house. This is not the old mild yellowing we're all familiar with, still they won't warranty it. This is not the satin impervo I've used for 20 years. No moore moore for me. None. Zero. Done. And I'll tell everyone my experience with what used to be a great company.
Not knowing the circumstances I can't comment. I wrote about Benjamin Moore as one example of a company which has gained respect over a long enough period that, unless a substantial number of people start reporting problems like yours, I'd trust their products over a lesser known, cheaper paint.
From what I am learning this is becoming a widespread problem. That is a hazard of being in business, but to deny warranty claims the way they are, I believe is completely irresponsible. Am I being unreasonable?
It's hard to comment without knowing the full story but assuming that all the product recommendations were followed...prep in particular...and that they could be tested for on site by a company rep, then no, I don't think that you're being unreasonable at all.
Usually in a situation like this, where a professional tradesperson is involved, the company or the wholesale supplier will make good on replacing the product with only a few questions about the prep work and perhaps a visual inspection. I'm surprised to hear that you've been having problems, getting that kind of response when the amount of product and the labor involved is substantial.
In my experience snail mail to the president of the company is the best remedy, short of hiring a lawyer...who will do the same thing on his/her letterhead.
particularly when that experience is more affected by business economics than product quality.
Your thinking like a trac builder. Not all painters/builders are looking for the cheapest thing on the shelf.
I know your background is scientific based and you tend to lean that way but there isnt a consumer report out there that can give me half as much info about paint as a good painter can!
Doug
there isnt a consumer report out there that can give me half as much info about paint as a good painter can!
I don't disagree with you necessarily, just noting that a single painter's experience is necessarily limited. I think one should consider all the factors and information, and not discount ANY of the information sources.
My problem in this area is findin a good painter. The stereotypical painter around here (and other places I have lived) does a half-***** job, and the general has his floater fix the mistakes. Problem is that painters are in such high demand - and, don't you know, ANYONE can paint :-)
I've had a lot of painters tell me that 5 to 7 years is the most you can hope for from an exterior paint job. My personal experience for my own painting on my own house is that I get the 15+ years the paint manufacturers say I should. But I carefully prepare before painting, use a good primer, use two coats of quality paint, etc.
The problem is that the painters won't be around when the paint fails
These are not fly-by-night painters that wont be around, these are guys that have been around and will continue to be around for some time. I'll take there recomendations over all the consumer reports that you can show me!
Thats why lab test results, such as those published in Consumer Reports and other publication will give you better information about paint quality and longevity than any painter will ever be able to give.
I'm sure you believe that and thats cool but I dont and I'll take a good painters recomendation over consumer reports recomendation every day of the week.
BTW, I think tool reviews are a joke too!
Doug
I had the same question in mind for several years, after using some cheap interior flat paint bought from a big paint store chain in So California. One day I met a store manager from that chain while we were each doing some volunteer work. He explained that the pigment is the expensive part of paint while the vehicle cost nearly nothing.
So if you want good coverage you have to buy the better quality paint. I wish I'd asked that question instead of allowing a neighbor talk me into using the big chain's cheap paint.
I just assumed that they were able to keep the price down through volume and cutting out a couple of levels of profit. Wrong. They were making plenty of money selling to DIY painters like me, who didn't know the real story on paint quality.
I've definitely learned my lesson to some extent on getting what you pay for with paint. And primer too. We were painting our remodeled kitchen recently and I bought several different brands and price points of primer for new drywall. Man, there was one kind that was horrible. Paint didn't stick to it! If you didn't get it right the first time, you were hosed. If you went back over it even a few seconds later, it would peel and goober. The paint was high quality ceramic acrylic, so I know it was the primer. The primer was Glidden's low-end drywall sealer. We had good results with their Gripper primer, though, for both interior and exterior.
So, I hear different opinions regarding Behr paint. Consumer Reports rates it pretty highly, but I don't always have the greatest faith in how they test things as compared to the real world. I've used it a lot and have been happy with it, but I don't know any professional painters who use it, and my wife doesn't like it (because we don't know any professional painters who use it). That's why I said I've learned my lesson to some extent. Behr is not the most expensive paint out there, but as I said, I've had good results. What are your opinions?
dpsours,
There is a real differance between pros and amateurs when regarding paint. Most pros need credit terms on their paint.. They aren't able to fund both labor and materials or they may get a draw to assist in labor costs but material costs must be arranged other wise.
IN addition pros often get sizeable discounts from a supplier. Thus few pros are willing to risk losing that relationship by using paints which offer them neither. I doubt Home depot offers either of those.
I've had very good results with all the Behr products I've used. Most recently I tried their bare drywall primer on green board, top coated with their satin enamel, both water based paint.
The primer didn't cover very well but it had fine adhesive qualities which literally pulled the top coat out of the roller sleeve. I got excellent coverage from a single coat of enamel.
I can't ask for more than that.
Honestly, I think a lot of people who try to paint occasionally don't know enough about the subject to get good results, even using the better grades of paint. So we hear complaints that are completely subjective.
"...fine adhesive qualities which literally pulled the top coat out of the roller sleeve."Can you explain please? And why do you keep your overcoat in a roller sleeve?
BruceT
Cheap paint isn't worth it.
To simplify quite a bit, paint chemistry is pretty simple. There has to be:
A vehicle. This is what keeps it liquid, and what evaporates as the paint dries. This has changed over the years, largely due to environmental concerns. Acrylic or 'latex' paint is now the norm, and they range from poor to pretty darned good. 'Oil based' paints are now 'modified' to lower the Volatile Organic Content, (the nasty stuff that evaporates into the air), and not very good compared to a top quality acrylic.
A binder. This is what sticks to the wall and holds the color, so it must be receptive to tint. Once upon a time, this was white lead, (and the best paint I've ever used), again environmental concerns led to change. The substitutes are basically white titanium and chalk, or a mix of them. White titanium wears better, nothing can do a one coat job like chalk. Chalk is cheap, white titanium is not. Some really good paints require two coats, all titanium no chalk. If you can roll on a coat of paint and rub your hand on it the next day and see dust, lotsa chalk. Great for apartment painting.
A tint. This is simply color that will be (and must be able to be) absorbed by the binder.
Additives. These vary, but can include mildecides, scent (Oh yes), and various stuff to make the paint work at low temps, alter sheen and so on. They also include various polymers that can radically improve a paints performance. Read the label of a can of SW Duration, note: Proprietary Polymer #blahblahblah; Proprietary Polymer XYZ, and so on. This is SW saying: "We paid a bunch of chemists for years to develop these polymer compounds to create a truly kick-#### paint. We own these chemicals, and are not yet ready to license them to others. So, that'll be $50, per gallon". I gladly pay it all the time.
Thanks for the updated chemistry lesson. Do you have any recommended brands or terms to look for on the paint can?
Another question. I remember using SW stain with analine dyes on some exposed douglas fir for interior work, in the early 1970's. It was the best stain I've ever seen, brought out several colors in the wood and looked beautiful with a coat of varnish.
Are you familiar enough with stains to advise me about who makes stains with analine dyes?
Are you familiar enough with stains to advise me about who makes stains with analine dyes?
Not trying to sway you away from any brand of stain but you do know that you can buy analine dyes in powder form, mix your own stain real easy. You can get water/alcohol or oil base.
Doug
Not trying to sway you away from any brand of stain but you do know that you can buy analine dyes in powder form, mix your own stain real easy. You can get water/alcohol or oil base.
You can't sway me if you don't tell me where to get the dyes. ;) No, I didn't know that I could buy them. Where? Any particular brand?
Hudson
I just recently moved and all my catologs are still in boxes, I'll dig them out soon but in the mean time I think Woodworkers Supply, Woodcrafters, Rockler, Maybe Homestead finishing's website ( http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/ )might be able to recomend other places.
If you dont find them at any of those places let me know, they are readily available.
Do you have a Woodcrafters store near you? they should have the stuff on hand.
Doug
Thanks Doug, I'll follow up on your recommendations soon.
In the past I have bought Lockwood analine dyes for dyeing wood and I use them quite a lot. I believe I bought them from Woodcraft Supply but I don't see them on their web site now. Maybe Constantine's has them, or Highland Hardware.Recently I bought some Transtint dyes to try out but I have nothing to report yet. If they are as good as I've heard I will probably use them instead of the Lockwood dyes in the future. Reasons: Transtint is sold pre-dissolved in a base of ... I dunno what, maybe alcohol and keytones? But it is easier to use than the powdered dyes like Lockwood. Just add it to a binder liquid which is usually either water or denatured alcohol. Reason #2: Transtints are reputed to be compatible with most finishes. The Lockwood dyes I've used must be sealed (I use shellac) before applying many types of finishes and can't be mixed into most finishes. Transtint can be mixed into water based top coats, shellac, lacquer and even most oil finishes (I think) if mixed with the appropriate binder. Finally, Transtint is reputed to be more light-fast than the analine dyes.More info on transtint (and a source for purchasing) is at HomesteadFinishing.com. Transtint is also available from Woodcraft Supply.Both of the above sources also sell Transfast powdered dyes. I don't know anything about them but the info is available at Homestead.
Thanks for taking the time to write about your experiences and methods. It's very helpful to know what's worked and why.
You're quite welcome but I should reiterate that you'll find much more and better experience-based advice than I can give in the forum at homesteadfinishing.com.
Hudson Valley Carpenter,
Here's the thing with anilines, they are water soluble. AND they infiltrate the the wood grain differently than a stain. Coffee can be used as an aniline dye. The wood will look dull, flat and lifeless until a true oil based finish is applied. Therein lies the problem, depending on the state you live in, and the environmental laws in place, you may or may not be able to purchase, say, a true oil-based Marine Spar Varnish, if it's 'modified' for low VOC. Water based finish products will not have that beautiful depth and resolution that you recall because they reactivate the dye and it mixes with the finish, basically.
Can't recommend a brand because I don't live where you do! Sorry.
skipj
You're right, cheap paint isn't worth it.Your paint component definitions aren't quite right, though.Vehicle is the liquid portion consisting of non-volatile binder (usually resin) and volatiles - solvents, water, etc. that evaporate away.White lead, titanium dioxide, iron oxide, zinc chromate etc. are pigments, not binders. They give paint its color and hiding ability and sometimes corrosion inhibiting properties. "Chalk" or talc, are used as fillers to reduce cost. As you say, more fillers makes for poor durability. One-coat coverage comes at the cost of durability because the binder is what holds paint film together. High pigment-to-binder ratio gives good coverage but poor durability; low pigment-to-binder ratio (resin rich) gives better durability but takes two coats to cover.BruceT
bruce,
I've been waiting for this.
Do you recall that, at the beginning of my post, I told the guy that I was going to give him a very simple lesson in paint chemistry? To, maybe help him?
Usually, Piffin is in charge of pedantic nonsense, is he off tonight?
If you want to break this down further, post me again, and we can argue paint chemistry until we are the only two who even look at this thread.
skipj
Actually, your simple lessons ARE fraught with errors or misleading info. at the least.
And you two won't be the only ones watching the thread. I won't go into my history of working with various formulations of coatings, but be assured, I can see that you know enough to be convinced that no one else knows anything.
Your aniline dye / remix with oil coatings is one absurd observation. .
For anyone else playing at home, readily found in many stores, RIT fabric dye can be had in many fantastic colors ( to quote a great song) and is a true dye. An oil finish will enhance it, as will shellac.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"
Okay guys, I know I had to take organic chem twice in university, but I need someone to sum up 'cause I got a whole house of sheetrock to prime starting this weekend, and since I expect to see drywall imperfections after the first coat I had just assumed (yes, I know #### of you and me) I would need a second coat anyway, so what do you guys recommend for a primer .. it will be rolled on .. thanks ..
It was @30 years ago that I took organic chemistry but like you 'wane' I would like to know the answer. I read every post here, even the argumentative posts - love them. But I am still lost. Is Tio2 a tinting product or a binding agent. Do I look on the can, find the contents, and care? I am about to paint a 5 room fist floor house and need good advice. No moore moore and no SW seems to run through out this thread - but what is left? Assume I am something a little less than a nuclear scientist and a little more than a strung out rap singer.Thanks, Mike
TiO2 is a white pigment. It comes as a non-soluble powder, so it cannot bind anything. When mixed with the resin (binding agent) it hides the substrate. It can be used in the form of a tinting paste to "milk" a bright color a little, but for all light color paints (and many medium colors) it is the primary pigment. I have had very good performance (12 years south exposure in Orange County CA) out of SW's interior and exterior paints as well as Glidden's top-end products. There are also some regional brands that make good products.
BruceT
Best primer for sheetrock is PVA from any good paint manufacturer. PVA is cheaper than other primers, probably not much good for anything else, but it seals the paper and joint compound more effectively than any other product.BruceT
You mentioned PVA primer from any good manufacturer. Whether Glidden qualifies as a good manufacturer is open to debate, but it was their PVA primer that I mentioned in my earlier post. The high-quality ceramic acrylic paint that I used after that did not stick. I used a few different primers in that job, and this was the only one that gave me trouble.
Remix with oil coatings? Where did I say such an 'absurd' thing? I'll bet that this site is 'fraught' with similar helpful posts from you.
Dude,
If you believe white lead, white titanium etc. are coloring agents, I assume your eyes are pink and you are utterly color blind, Two words: LAMP BLACK.
Please.
skipj
I always have to chuckle with issues regarding paint. Back more years than I care to count, there was a store in CT. called Railroad Salvage. The advertised on TV for something like $7.99 the worlds best paint. The ad would say only limited colors available. I went one day to check and the story - the paint was labelled "The Worlds Best Paint". There was no supporting testing. I walked the other way but others told me that it was almost just colored water.
The one factor that should guide your paint choice initially is the TiO2 content. Titanium dioxide is the white base sans tint. The higher the titanium, the better the coverage. Tint is tint, but not the base. The base used to be lead oxide, which was also very white but gone now for all the right reasons.
The solvent vehicle determines what the paint binds to and what the finish will be. It also determines dry time. http://www.etherhuffer.typepad.com
there is "cheap' paint...
DOT use to paint the stripes on the highways...
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