Hello All,
I’m working out the exact details with my foundation contractor….turns out he did miss a couple of things on the plans and his bid is going to be slightly higher than original but still lower than everyone else’s by a bit. We are butting heads a bit on a couple of points I want added to the contract and would appreciate y’alls feedback on it.
Since they are lifting the house the gas, water, sewer lines are going to have to be altered for the 6″ lift. He is also redoing the main drain line plumbing from the street to the underslab areas. I wanted some kind of gaurentee that the house would remain habitable. Meaning that when we get home from work every night at 7pmish we have water, gas and sewer and elec. Is this unreasonable for me? Its going to be winter when this work is going on and the wife is not going to trudge out to the porta potty to do her business in the rain-cold-dark.
I also want to include some sort of point that says he’s responsible for doing the work as laid out in the plans. That way if he misses something in his reading of the plans and its not in the bid then he’s on the hook for it and not me. This might be harsh but I am just trying to make sure he has really looked at the plans and has considered everything before we agree on a number. He’s worded the points in the contract more directly and kinda gets around that point.
Any helpfull comments would be greatly appreciated as I am meeting with him tomorrow to go over this stuff.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Replies
Buy a generator, for a temporary fix. Issues always come up and it's not always someones fault.
A generator will run a microwave, a few fixtures for lights and a space heater or two.
You live in California how cold can it get?
Matt- Woods favorite carpenter.
I'm not really worried about the elec as its overhead and shouldn't be effected by the work. Gas, water and sewer is what I'm worried about. I agree that some things can go wrong but how long is reasonable for the services to be out? What I don't want is a situation where something goes south towards the end of the day and they shrug their shoulders and decided to deal with it the next day or even later. This is going to be a ~6 week job and we have to live here during that time unfortunately.
Cold unfortunately is relative my wife if from So-Cal and anything under 70 she's freezing!
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
In my world you pay for responsibility and guarantees.
If I were your contractor, I would give you any thing you wanted ( and not within reason), but don't even think that I'm going to give you the best price and then add on all of your problems.
It's usually best for both parties to have the most comprehensive scope of work up front.
I will generally work off of my understanding of what is needed and spec my proposal from that. I will do everything I can to make it work - BUT - It's your frickin' house, not mine.
I'm not trying to be a hard #### here, but I have no desire to make your life better at the cost of my life suckin'.
Contracting ain't a real hard thing to figure out. I'll give you what you want - and you pay for it! If you want me to insure that it goes perfect, then you pay for the insurance. You pay your insurance company to cover unforseen situations - why would I do it for free?
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
I have to agree with Jhole.Good contractors expect problems with every project. They also educate the homeowners to expect problems and assure them that it is their job to handle them with experience and skill. If I were contracting with you I would tell you to expect the possibility that you might share the porta with the lowly crew for a couple days. I always tell my customers that undertaking a construction project on the home that they live in is a BIG DEAL. There are parts that really suck! I know. I do it every day and I've lived through it. Sometimes we all just need to suffer through it together.
But if you want uninterrupted living, you're going to pay for the extra work and limited working hours per day that that requires. My guys cost me money every second they are on your job. You pay for every second, plus my profit and associated expenses. And my guys aren't cheap. Think about what you get paid and double it. That approximates what my guys cost me. If you add restrictions that cost time it adds up very fast. Go on vacation during the worst of it if you need to. Experienced clients swear by it. Hope my advice helps. Good luck on your project!
So what would be your reasonable comprimise then? Like I told jhole I can't be the only potential customer facing a job like this that has these concerns.
I'm not against staying at a local motel for a couple of days while they are doing the 'dirty work' we would just need to know this ahead of time. Though we are not rich and this is costing us a lot of money and staying at a hotel for extended periods of time is not really in the budget.
I'm not picking a fight but are you or jhole contractors that specialize in major foundation redos? I was hoping that one of the concrete contractors on here would see this and chime in. It would be good to get their take on this request I think.
btw the comment about us sharing the porta-potty with the 'lowly' seems a bit judgemental to me. Since we work all day we would probably only be using the dang thing at night when the crew is not here anyways.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Sorry, I didn't mean for that to come off judgmental. It was poorly worded humor.The point both Jhole (I think)and I are trying to make is that each job is it's own set of unique problems. It doesn't matter how many times you have done a particular type of project, every one has it's very own set of challenges. Yours might take 3 days to get back in order, but it could also take 6, it all depends on as many factors as predicting the weather. Your contractor is taking a risk with every job to be sure. But ultimately it is your house and you are paying a professional to give you their best estimate for the amount of work needed and an estimated schedule.
Think of it as a doctor giving you your chances on an upcoming surgery. He's done the surgery many times before and come across many complications but every one is unique and there is a very significant chance that yours may be an exception. An unexpected surprise may come up to cause delays and added expense. It's not the contractors house. He is giving his best (educated)guess about how to solve your problem based on his experience but each job is unique. Contractors don't take the risk, the homeowner does. If you don't want to take the risk buy a home that needs no renovation.
As I said before, a good contractor will explain these risks to you. If you still feel like you can accept these risks than go ahead with the project. If not, there are other options.If you want a guarantee, he should be able to provide one for you but that is not standard operating procedure and it will cost you more money.
Yea the gaurentee idea is apparently unreasonable by majority vote here. There has to be a reasonable comprimise though. Can't/don't want to live in a situation where the utilities can be shut off at any minute with no notice and no reasonable idea when they will be back on-especially if that happens several times over the course of the project. That's really what I am trying to avoid here.
He's not new to this, he's got all his own subs and what not and I have to believe that he is good enough at scheduling that we can winnow it down to several consecutive days where we can stay at a hotel.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
You both are in this together. Don't forget that. Good communication and a solid understanding of the risks are the hallmarks of a good contractor/client relationship. Understanding that he is doing his best to get the job done right on time and within budget and that it's your house and your financial risk is a good place to start. It's his business and your home. As long as everyone understands these simple concepts it should be a successful project. Problems WILL arise. But if everyone trusts each other they can be solved with a minimum of stress.
I was just thinking the same things - especially the go on vacation or at least to a hotel for a few days during the critical points."it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latinihttp://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
jhole,
Well its obvious that you are in the 'its unreasonable category'.
If I were your contractor, I would give you any thing you wanted ( and not within reason), but don't even think that I'm going to give you the best price and then add on all of your problems.
I don't understand what you mean by 'my problems'
It's usually best for both parties to have the most comprehensive scope of work up front.
I completely agree on this scope of work is spelled out in the plans he just seems to of missed some of it?
I will generally work off of my understanding of what is needed and spec my proposal from that. I will do everything I can to make it work - BUT - It's your frickin' house, not mine.I'm not trying to be a hard #### here, but I have no desire to make your life better at the cost of my life suckin'.
What part of this would make your life suck? How would the attitude that its my fricken house not yours help things?
Contracting ain't a real hard thing to figure out. I'll give you what you want - and you pay for it! If you want me to insure that it goes perfect, then you pay for the insurance. You pay your insurance company to cover unforseen situations - why would I do it for free?
I never said I wanted this to be done for free so I'm not sure what you mean here. After clarifying some things the contractor missed in the plan his price has gone up twice and will go up once more after our meeting tomorrow.
If my idea is unreasonable what then would you propose as a reasonable compromise? I can't believe that I am the first HO paying for a full foundation-slab redo that has concerns about the livability of the place. Can you not see it from my point of view? It sorta seems like you are saying that 'I'll try my best but if it doesn't work out then tuff for you its not my house'
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Dan
I think what JHOLE is getting at is the
"Live in my own house every night"
Myself I don't think that is reasonable for a house lifting and set back down. I would find a hotel for a couple weeks. Cheaper than having him walk off in the middle and finding someone else.
In my mind that would aleviate some of his concern. And probably lower your price a bit.
Do people in your area really lift thier house and live in it at the same time?
(not being a smartass)
my wife would freak.
yea in this area there is a lot of work to be had in replacing the crumbling brick foundations on the old houses. All the contractors I've talked to say that its pretty much SOP for the folks to still be living in the house while the work is going on....unless the folks are on the wealthy side...
Geez a couple of weeks at a hotel....well that might be the case then I don't know...we have pets that need feeding. I would hope that it wouldn't be a couple of weeks but then I add that price into his bid and he's getting closer to the other guys he underbid...
Well that's three pro's against and one for.....still hoping from some input from one of the concrete guys...
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
"Meaning that when we get home from work every night at 7pmish we have water, gas and sewer and elec. Is this unreasonable for me?"
To answer your question (and not as a builder) yes, this is unreasonable to expect and even more unreasonable to guarantee. There are multiple trades/multiple inspections and unknown conditions involved. Language about 'minimizing time without utilities' and 'notifying owner when disrupted' is reasonable and consistent with industry (AIA Owner-Contractor) standards.
Figure on about five days down if you get everyone lined up just right and the inspector(s) aren't on vacation. Keep the planned down time away from holidays too.
Jeff
yea I'm getting the feeling that everyone here thinks that point is unreasonable. That's why I posed it here to get the feedback of people who are good at what they do and are reasonable.
Maybe I'm being paranoid but I really would like to somehow put something in the contract to minimize time with out utilities... I'm just thinking worst case here what if he pulls his guys off my job to finish up a more lucrative job and I'm stuck with out services for a week or something....
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Although it isn't unreasonable to live in your home during this construction, it involves more work for the contractor than you can imagine which would make me want to hire someone who has done this multiple times before and can give you references for you to contact (even though they would only be the "good" references, you can get some insight). When our company did this exact work on a project that was inhabited the guys spent more time hooking, unhooking and re-hooking electric, ductwork and plumbing than they did excavating or laying walls. Of course not enough of this time was in our bid so we ate tens of thousands of dollars in losses. My family lived in our house when I raised it but it's different doing your own house vs. a customers. My wife is certifiably insane to put up with my ideas but someday she will understand.
Maybe you should pay the contractor a fee to develop a project schedule that they can agree to and base his pricing on. Extra labor can be loaded in to make all the bad stuff happen all at once instead of over a prolonged timeframe. The contract says he has to stick to the schedule with penalties if he doesn't. And if you fear that he would walk in the middle then you shouldn't use him anyway. Is bonding typical for this type of residential work?
Greg T
I don't think it's unreasonable to expect the subcontractor to supply the services specified in the plans. a simple state ment in the agreement "as per plans dated: .."
is perfectly acceptable. More often than not however, the architect has left something out and upon discussion and clarification with the archy, the cost of the project may go up. just something to be aware of."it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."Bozini Latinihttp://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
>Well its obvious that you are in the 'its unreasonable category'.
No, I don't think it's "unreasonable". I just think it's and added concern / responsibility for me as a contractor. And I would include a good size insurance factor on my side to make sure that I could meet your wishes.
>I don't understand what you mean by 'my problems'
I mean that you bought the house, and all of it's quirks and defficiencies. I didn't. I have my own house with it's own problems. When I run into a "problem" ( something hidden, hacked, or some other unforseen obstacle) while I am working on your house, I don't just take ownership of it for the opportunity to do the work.
>What part of this would make your life suck?
The part where I'm sitting in a hole, cold, dark, covered in someone elses fecal matter, trying to fix an unforseen problem which screwed my progress for the day, put me two hours behind, with a homeowner standing over me, waving a piece of paper that says it's all my fault that his wife's life got disturbed because I was trying to lift an entire house. My life starts to suck at this point because my quality of life is considerably worse than sitting on the dock drinkin' a beer a nd fishing with my kids.
Gotta go , I'll be back...Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
No, I don't think it's "unreasonable". I just think it's and added concern / responsibility for me as a contractor. And I would include a good size insurance factor on my side to make sure that I could meet your wishes.
That's fine I'm not sure where this idea got started on this thread that I am trying to squeeze this guy for work that I am not planning on paying for.
I've done the late night plumbing thing myself before and I know its not fun... and I don't really want to put anyone thru that. I'm just looking now for a reasonable comprimise.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
"I'm not sure where this idea got started on this thread that I am trying to squeeze this guy for work that I am not planning on paying for."I got that impression from two things, possibly just poor choice of words on your part.one was using the word "Gaurantee"The other was that you are adding these requirements AFTER he made the bid.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
well okay I also caught a couple of things that are in the plans that he missed and he's adjusted his price upward accordingly-untill the final contract is signed his bid is really only a good guestimate anyways right? Least that's how I look at it. Course if the final agreed price in the contract is waaaay outta line with with his bid I'm going to be suspious.
Actually I thought that even though I am just a HO that I would of posted on here enough to not be pegged as the dumb-a$$ HO who only cares about getting it done the cheapest and now he's whining about it blah blah blah...
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
I made it back.
It is not my intention to be difficult or argumentitive.
If you want me to continue, - I will - no problem.
But, if noone cares then I will get on to sumpthin' else.
I rocked someones world today and even my subs left the job thanking me for the opportunity, and said that it was the way things "should" be done. but in the years that they have done their trade they have never seen it done. It took me six months to put it together.
I didn't pass judgment on weather you were squeezing him or not. I actually think that by coming here and asking, that you were trying to be fair.
All I was trying to do is paint some kind of an idea what I, as a contractor, might think when you ask me for that.
It is my job as a contractor to give my customer what they want - and then let them know what it will cost them. The more they want - the more it will cost. Just like the grocery store - pick a cart and fill it up with what you are willing to pay for. I don't go to the grocery store and fill up my cart, and then ask for them to guarantee that it will taste good when I follow a particular recipe.
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
It is my job as a contractor to give my customer what they want - and then let them know what it will cost them. The more they want - the more it will cost. Just like the grocery store - pick a cart and fill it up with what you are willing to pay for. I don't go to the grocery store and fill up my cart, and then ask for them to guarantee that it will taste good when I follow a particular recipe.
All seems reasonable to me, everyone agrees that my intial request is unreasonable for the job, maybe reasonable if he's allowed to tack on an 'annoying HO' charge. Now I would like input (besides I should just move out for the 2 months) on what a reasonable comprimise would be.
Everyone: Can we please get past this one point and move on? Next point I would like to get past is that I'm a dumb-a$$ for picking the lowest bidder.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
The best compromise is one that you control. Tell the guy that you want to be able to live in the house for the duration of the project but that you don't expect an ironclad guarantee of this.
Then add into your budget the cost of a couple of nights in one of the nice hotels in town. The cost of this won't be as much as what he would have to add on to cover the additional risk and you may not have to spend it.
One comment on your choice of contractors: You seem to have done a great job of researching your man but realize that he won't be perfect. Even paying for the highest bid is no guarantee of that. None of us second guessing you here has any proven method for always getting what we want.
"Now I would like input (besides I should just move out for the 2 months) on what a reasonable comprimise would be. "Just lay out your demands on the table. Explain that you are serious about them and know that it will cost more to have them and then ask the contractor to think about it and give you a new contract with a new price that reflects your concerns. Then say nothing and wait to hear his answer. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
After having read this thread, I could not help but add that one major consideration is that sometimes a house lifting project does not go so well and they fall. I would like to think a competent contractor would make sure this does not happen, but I know of two projects here where the house shifted a couple of inches and low and behold, fifty concrete piers where now sticking through the first floor. In both cases the houses needed to be razed.
For the sake of your family's protection and protection of your personal items, I would consider getting out for some period to get past the critical stuff. Everything will happen faster if your not in there.
I also want to include some sort of point that says he's responsible for doing the work as laid out in the plans. That way if he misses something in his reading of the plans and its not in the bid then he's on the hook for it and not me. This might be harsh but I am just trying to make sure he has really looked at the plans and has considered everything before we agree on a number. He's worded the points in the contract more directly and kinda gets around that point
I'm not a lawyer, and I don't play one on TV. But I see your point, been there, done that.
I'd say stand your ground on the contract and wording, and pay a lawyer a few hundred $ to make sure it will hold up. Then make sure that you hold back enough cash until everything is satisfied. The fact that this guy doesn't want this type of wording in the contract should send up a warning signal.
You mentioned that this guy's price is lower (even with the changes and expected increases) than others by far. I would really be thorough in covering my rear. He might get midway into the project, then say, "OH, well, I need to do this to meet code, but it wasn't in my original description of work to be done, or the original price."
Think of the worst case scenario: your guy misses something in the prints, wants major $$ additional, you can't come to agreement, he walks, leaving you without sewer, water, etc. It takes you a while (even with your best effort) to get replacement contractor (and we all know how appealing that type of work is, right), and it ends up costing XX% more (which is in line with the other original bids) and twice as long. All the while you and the Mrs. are using the "blue room" out back in the cold/dark.
Here is my personal experience:
Contractor was quoting job, we both looked over the drawings together. He listed out the work he would do, everything would be to code, and gave a price. These things were in the contract.
Then after a lot of work done (and a lot of payments, too) he tries to hit me up for a SUBSTANTIAL change order, because of stuff needed to meet "the Village Code Requirements." My response was that, hey, you were the one that worked with the Village, pulled the permits, etc. You should have known what you were quoting. His response was, if the particular work is not listed in the contract, then it's not part of the quote. Problem was, he jumped the gun and gave a price and contract before the drawings were marked up per Village requirements. But he did specify everything would be to code. I figured, he was the pro and should know code better than I do, but I found out too late.
If I had to do it all over again, I would put in the body of the contract: the plans by drawing numbers, revision, specifications, dates, etc, whatever makes them uniquely identifiable, and make sure that any future revisions are traceable. And a clause that states that contractor is responsible for performing to code, and any associated costs to meet code and pass inspections are his. Then I'd get a lawyer to look it over and make sure it would fly.
By the way, the contractor I mentioned above came highly recommended by a close family member (who is also in the trades), seemed extremely competent, motivated for the job, and the job seemed to be a good fit for his skills and resources. And he was one of about a dozen or 15 that I called to look at this project (lots of no shows, and it was easy to spot the ones who did show up where it was too big or too small for them, and the ones that were just plain idiots.) Final outcome was that he screwed up a big portion of the job, missed his 3 month deadline by a month, and walked off the job, and we had to eat about $15-20k of a $55k project.
Good luck.
Pete Duffy, Handyman
Hi Pete,
Most of the points on the contract are pretty fair he even offers the idea of paying for construction bond if I feel that its needed. There is a substantial holdback 1/3 the price of the entire job. There's just a couple of points we are not exactly seeing eye to eye on.
He is lower but I've checked him out six ways from Sunday and he always comes up smelling like roses! I am a little bit perturbed that he doesnt of appeared to of looked at the plans as closely as he should of...
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
I see what you're saying. It's good that you did your homework and checked him out 6 ways to Sunday, and he is still your contractor of choice. But even with all that, just make sure the contract spells out all of your expectations and his, (and most contracts state that the contract is the entire agreement, meaning there are no understandings that AREN't directly specified in the contract, i.e no verbal agreements exist, no matter how trustworthy either of you may be.)
Like I said, the guy I told you about was thoroughly checked out, came referred by a family member, and seemed entirely competent to do the job, and then blew it.
I'm not trying to dissuade you from the guy you choose. I'm just saying get all your ducks in a row, have a lawyer line them up for you, and then have a plan B, just in case.
Pete Duffy, Handyman
where did the plans come from ?
Pete, where did the plans come from? If it was an architect, then he is responsible for specifying details that will pass all applicable codes. If your contractor was bidding on a set of drawings by a licensed professional arch. or engineer, he has no authority to vary from those drawings. If, when the building department required changes to those drawings, your contractor had every right to revise his bid. If he did not have the opportunity to review the revised( Approved) drawings, he has every right to charge extra. If he did review the approved drawings and chose not to revise his price then I feel he gave up his right to charge more. Fair?
Basically, that was the problem.
Quote was given based on drawings contractor did, that we reviewed together.
He said he had spoken to building department, and that architect plans were not necessary, and that his drawings would suffice.
We signed the contract about that time.
He then submitted for permits. Building department said he needed an architect to make and stamp drawings. We agreed to split the architect's fees.
Then the arcy's plans were submitted with permit apps. Building department marked up drawings showing what was required. There was a slight increase in cost then, that we agreed to.
Then 3/4 through the project, he hits me with a CO, saying it was to cover the costs of the things the Village required. This was a couple of months after final plans were approved by building department. It should have been done when the plans were finalized, but he didn't do it, and never let on that there would be an increase.
We agreed to another cost increase. Then he got farther and farther behind on the job, and walked.
Should have had the final plans approved before signing the contract, and the contract should have had a clause that stated any work that needed to be done to meet codes, even though not specified in his scope of work, would be at his cost. But I doubt it would have mattered, since the bum walked off the job anyway.Pete Duffy, Handyman
The American Institute of Architects has some form contracts available on their site. I recommend you check them out - even if it costs a few bucks.
There is hardly a building issue that hasn't been addressed countless times since Hannibal. The field does have 'standard' expectations. The vast majority of problems arise when one, or both, parties are ignorant of these 'ground rules,' and try to re-invent the wheel.
Don't even think of altering a contract without a lawyer's advice. You don't want to have your words backfire- and come back to bite you.
Do you have an idea in this case if I'm asking for something way out of the ordinary? Guess I'm asking what the standard expectations are in a case like this? I'm completely willing to admit that I might be waay outta bounds on this but still I can't help thinking that I can't possibley be the first HO to have these concerns in a situation like this...
Thanks for the advice though and I'll look at the site.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Daniel, it will be very difficult to get all the subs there to break the connections on their respective pipes, lift the house, and reconnect, all in a day. Possible but not at all likely. I would suggest working out with the contractor a three-day window where you'll be staying in a hotel, and be prepared to extend it to five days if (when) problems come up.
I'm guessing that if he was the low bidder he might be the least experienced, which doesn't mean he won't be good, but it might mean that the management magic that needs to happen to get all these trades through might not be his strong point. Discuss dates that you want this to happen and follow up with him frequently to hone in on just what three-day window is going to work best.
You know what kind of fun you had dealing with the building department? The water department, the gas department, and the power company can all be just as much fun, trying to get them to do what they're supposed to do, when they're supposed to. As often as not I've had them show up early and act pissy when you're not ready for them.
You asked for reasonable and three days does sound about right for him to get the utilities back up and running. Give him three days. After that there he can pick up the hotel room cost. It's not much but it will make you feel better if it goes beyond three days and will motivate him to get it done. If he gets it done in two or one day you give him a bonus. Maybe the cost of the hotel room plus something? I'd get that in writing if you feel you need to. You have cats? Are they going to be locked in a room? Because this will probably freak them out.
I remember the last time I worked at a house that was being remodeled and lived in they were having the floors finished. Their was a general contractor but he lost control to the owner. He was still there but not really in control. They had their business down in the basement. So the floor finisher is spreading the finish upstairs and in one spot it is really soaking it up. I passed the spot in the basement and the Big copy machine is covered in floor finish. Who's fault was that? Stuff happens. The owner had decided to not replace the oak flooring in one area to save costs. So the finish went right through.
Yea that would be best of course if it was three days in a row and we had advance warning. They don't work weekends how lame would it be for me to lose service on a Friday and have to wait till Tues or Weds to get them back.
I have no desire to run this guys show for him. I'm just doing my best right now to minimize the head aches down the line. I think that every minute we spend making sure the details of the contract are correct will save 10 min of agravation after the fact.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
You have every right to minimize your headaches but you should expect to pay for them.I'm thinking that the other high bidders would balk at the terms just like this guy is. They'd expect you to be out of the house too and their bids would go up. I'm glad I'm not a slab repair guy. I think the first line in my contract would read: "You and your entire family, including pets, will be out of the house for _________________________weeks" I think I'd get that clarified before I set the first appointment. FKA Blue (eyeddevil)
Yea but that's not SOP around here for the foundation redo's (except for the wealthy). Every foundation contractor I talked to said it was pretty usual for the HO's to still be living there while they are working. I understand it won't be fun for us exactly but luckily we'll be at work while they are working.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
The utility connections would be the least of my worries. Unless there is a legal or local restriction against it, I would do all of them with temporary flex connections before even starting to lift the place.My concerns go more to the liabilities. There would be a lot more of erecting barricades to keep inhabitants safe and keep them from interfering with the work in progress. Then that means that the crew would need to work around those barricades more, losing time, and the longer that thing is balanced up in the air, the more chance for something else to go wrong.over ten years, I totally rebuilt a house here. One portion at a time, every winter, having it up and running again come next sumer. One year the project involved the basement level and new foundation, fitting a gymnasium under it. The owner mentioned he would like to keep the house functional that year. That was fine since the kitchen and the utilites were all in the far other end of the house from where I was working. They had something like 15 bedrooms to choose from.Well, after we got it standing free on the temp sup[ports to replace the foundation and cut the ledge out from under, he decided to come up for Thanksgiving weekend with his wife. Asked if he could sleep in the master bedroom which was right above our project two stories. I said I wouldn't if i were you, but it is functional, bathroom and all.The night after turkey day, a big old wind storm rolled through. He told me that from then on, he would take my advice about where to sleep. Said that he was certain that a wind gust had lifted that wing of the house right up off my supports a couple of inches while they were in bed.I don't think that was true, since it was still attached to the main house, but it gave me reason to wonder...
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The utility connections would be the least of my worries. Unless there is a legal or local restriction against it, I would do all of them with temporary flex connections before even starting to lift the place.
Matter of perspective I guess. I've never done a house lift myself, worked on several, but the teardown/rebuild I did in Saco recently made me appreciate just how badly scheduling and permitting can go. All the utilities and a new driveway permit, changing overhead service to underground, including removing a pole that also fed a neighbor's service...and NOBODY did what they said they would, when they said they would (except me of course)! Weeks of planning and choregraphy fell apart...there was no plan B, only one power company to choose from.
It's not the utility connections themselves that are a problem...it's the legal/local restrictions against it, and the inspections needed that worry me. My boss worries about the liability end of things ;-)
I wanted some kind of gaurentee that the house would remain habitable. Meaning that when we get home from work every night at 7pmish we have water, gas and sewer and elec. Is this unreasonable for me?
If you're wealthy and have no issue paying for the extra labor involved, then no it's probably not. But even then, only as long as you understand that water, gas, sewer and electric doesn't mean the entirety of each of those systems will necessarily be functioning every evening.
It can be difficult and it's certainly inefficient to have to do a job that way, taking things apart and then putting them back together temporarily, sometimes over and over, before they're ready for permanent connection. So it takes more time and costs more money, and if the contractor or subs didn't figure that in, then they're gonna be unhappy.
I also want to include some sort of point that says he's responsible for doing the work as laid out in the plans. That way if he misses something in his reading of the plans and its not in the bid then he's on the hook for it and not me. This might be harsh but I am just trying to make sure he has really looked at the plans and has considered everything before we agree on a number.
This seems to me to be good business. That's why we have spec's and contracts. I like the suggestion someone made to look at the AIA contracts. I've used them before, they're pretty good.
Good luck with your project.
Ed
When I had my house lifted, my guy told me he was one of a few that was actually insured to have the house habitated while on cribs.Don't know how true that was.
It was up to me to have my water, gas and sewer disconected before the lift and to reconnect everything also. Flex connection for the gas, water with some pex and a quick abs fix for the sewer. The building inspectors kind of looked the other way (I had the water heater on a chunk of concrete and strapped to a 4x4 post) during their visits, but I had a good relationship with them.
The house was up 2 months+ and we lived in it the whole time.
Are you really going up 6 feet ? I thought you were going down and that was why the foundation was so expensive.
If your still using Duvall you should be in good hands, they do some nice stuff up in the hills.
Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
Wow I must of typo'd I am only going up 6" just to level the house and to not have to dig down that much. There is no way in heck AL would let me go up 6'!!!!
Wow you were responsible for all the utilities? Your in the trades so I can understand you wanted to do that to save some cash but I can't imagine the average HO being able to do that...no way...
No going with Duvall going with a local Alameda guy.....Jim was just too expensive unfortunately...
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
There is no way in heck AL would let me go up 6'!!!!
I went up 4 ft. , because there are apartments on my block the planner mentioned my height limit was 47 ft. I still might try and put on a 20ft. cupula somday. <G>
At least a local guy should be able to work with the city ok.
I can't imagine the average HO... come on, you are the mad scientist. ; ^ )
Be keepin' your sanity, Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
Yea I've got the tallest house on the block now anyways....
Fixing up the utilities is within my skill set its just that with this new job I have with 50-60hr work weeks and a ton of traveling I don't have the time anymore...
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
We work (and live) in an area where few permits/inspections are required. Doing good work is really up to your company and what you can live with except for sewer changes which are regulated by the health department.
I don't do house lifts but we do a lot of bath remodels in one bath homes with people still in them. We can, and do, often need to make sure the toilet works each evening. Sounds simple. But it is not. Each night you have to ensure the area is flat, you have a good seal, it is perfectly clean around the area (broom swept won't do), you have to shut down production on the job early each day to make sure the toilet area is ready, etc. etc. We do it frequently but charge extra for it because it takes more time and material. Simple as that.
In your situation if inspections are needed and you are relying on subs the risk of a SNAFU goes up. No different then your car mechanic relying on UPS to bring a part, guarenteeing you your car will be ready for your vacation and UPS loses the part. Does he pay? It is just not realistic to ask him to guarentee something that has so many people involved with that he can request their presence, but certainly not realisticly guarentee it.
Sub calls for a plumbing instpector at noon, they say we will be there by 3, no show till 5 and in the meantime a gas leak occures across town so that is where he is. Lots of stuff can happen. Of course subs etc. can be required to stand by and wait so they are ready at the moment the inspection is good or work late to fix anything. But it costs money to do so and I doubt that will come from the low bidder. DanT
I want possibly the most complicated remodeling job done on my home with a gaurantee that My family will not be inconvenienced...and I will choose the low bidder....
.
.
.
.
.
I have Transcended the need for Pants....oooohhhhmmmmmm......
You have obviously not read the entire thread. I wanted to know if y'all thought this clause was reasonable, turns out its not, and we've moved on from there. Now we are talking about what is reasonable for the HO to expect in a situation like this.
I have also been over the low bidder thing before I chose this guy because I liked how he proposed to do the job and he's been in the business for a lot of years and his references checked out. He just happens to be the low bidder which I admit is strange.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
"I want possibly the most complicated remodeling job done on my home with a gaurantee that My family will not be inconvenienced...and I will choose the low bidder....
.
.
.
."Apparently. you have also transcended the need for long and wordy explanations, LOLWell done
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Like many others have said, you can ask the contractor to put whatever you want in the contract. It is not unreasonable to do so. If the contractor cannot perform according to the terms you are requesting, he can respond like a grown adult and either decline to change the contract or offer some alternatives.
The unreasonable part comes when you would expect additional terms to not be met by additional costs.
It sounds like you have been posting about this work for a while, based on comments made by others. I have not been following along, other than this thread so I don't really understand the background. What I would caution is to consider your risk with this job.
I see that Ruffmike recommended an alternative contractor who gave you a quote that you felt was too high. I have no idea what the quotes were or what is reasonable, but I would ask you to think about what the contractor in question is leaving out. If one guy will do it for $25k and another says he can do it for $17k (prices just for illustration) you know that an $8k difference is being made up somewhere. It will come from the pockets of either the material suppliers, the employees/subs of the company, the owners of the company, or the customer. Or any combination of the four.
I don't want to sound simplistic or condescending, but you have to feel comfortable with where the difference is coming from. Maybe the more expensive guy has a yacht payment of $8k due soon and that explains 100% of the difference. Or maybe the cheaper contractor has learned that he can hire laborers for 1/2 as much as skilled workers and complete the job so it *looks* like it was done right, at least for a few years.
I'm working on a quote for a foundation repair and deck job right now. The customer is having water problems in their basement and will need to have a brick and concrete stoop removed to provide access to do the repair. Once the area is fixed, we will build a 200 SF deck to replace the stoop. Our price is in the teens.
I'm sure that some guy could come along and say he could do the job for $7k, but fortunately the customer realized that in order to fix the problem right several steps will have to be taken to ensure that the job will last and he gets his money's worth. We aim to be profitable as a company, and charge a rate that will ensure that we can survive in the business (at least that's the target) but we're not getting rich. The guy who could do it cheaper would likely employ two methods of cutting costs. Making less money himself because of a lack of understanding the real costs of being in business and inferior materials & workmanship.
With the project you're describing, I would not be comfortable with too much risk. Maybe the cheaper price doesn't equal more risk for you, but then on the flip side...
Sorry for being verbose, just my thoughts on the matter.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
But perhaps the person who charges 8k less knows how to properly manage a job, uses grunt labor for grunt jobs, schedules well, and has the appropriate skills in house so they don't pay another layer of overhead etc to subs.I got bids to replace an exterior water line. One was twice as high as another, and the third wanted to do it T&M. He said he didn't know how many hours it would take to dig the trench, but that it would be plumbers wage to dig. I said I didn't care if Albert Einstein digs the trench, I'm not paying master wages for ditch digging. If you can't get the appropriate labor for the specific task at hand, don't expect me to pay for your problems.I went with the low bid. No problems. It was dig a trench, make a hole in the wall, connect underground copper pipe, fill trench and hole in wall. Yes there was a master on site, but he wasn't digging the ditch.
You forgot to mention "call Digsafe" Did the digger forget too?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
It was all hand dug. And this connection is between the "big" house and the carriage house, so dig safe will not mark on 'private' property. As I found out when I called them. They only marked the alley.
That is interesting. They are required to do it here if you call. Ther is a charge if the line is a private line, but he main service in is always on the private property. How would a contractor dig anything mjor if the digsafe service there refuses to do it on private property?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Yeah, tell me about it. If I still have the tag, I'll scan it, but I think I threw it out. Some boiler plate with check boxes.FWIW, the main service hits the meter on the carriage house at the alley, runs (in conduit) along the carriage house and goes under ground to the big house, pops back up at the house and goes through the wall above ground to the main panel. So you can see where it goes into the ground and back up. Of course, it could always do weird things underground, but it is pretty obvious where it is.Anyway, yeah, I called the underground utility people and that's what we got for our effort. We could see and visualize where most things likely ran, and hand digging was safe.
I know y'all were on pins and needles waiting for the outcome of this saga...
Finally had a sit-down with the contractor today and we worked everything out amicably. I point out a couple of things that he missed in the plans and he agreed to do them for the same price. He's not going to guarantee the utilities but we will work out a schedule where they'll be down for a couple of days but the rest of the time he's pretty much guarantying them to stay on. He misunderstood the scope of the plumbing and is going to have his plumbing sub come out tomorrow to price the work.
Seems that we were able to resolve our differences amicably and the start day for the job is Dec 5th!!! Yahoo!!!
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
That's how I would see it coming out on one of my projects.
You were reasonable, and let him know your concerns, he understood your concerns and will do what he can to accomodate them.
In my world this is how it happens.
You may have a few moments of discomfort, as will he.
Both of you will get through this project.
Good for you, good luck. At least you started out on good footing.
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
I don't think that it is where the untility is on private property or not.But rather who is responsible for the line.Most likely t he utility feed stops at the meter weather head if over head drop or the at the meter if underground.Past the meter it is yours..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
That makes sense, and like I said, we certainly could see where it was "likely" to run.But the advertising leaves a bit to be desired.
Jon, Everyone,
Guess I'm going to go thru why I chose this guy over the others more explicitly so I dont' keep getting this 'dumb HO chose the lowest bidder' comments anymore.
Did a ton of research online and came up wiht 4 local foundation contractors that are highly reccomended. Of the four I liked this guys ideas on water-proofing the foundation and the drainage the best. I only got 3 bids back and this guy happened to be the lowest by a lot, $20,000.
Instantly I'm suspious so I get his references and start calling them. Actually wife started calling them and she started from the wrong end of the list and talked to several folks who had their foundations done ~12 years ago!! They all loved him, spoke glowingly of him and said that after all that time there were no problems with the work done. Switched to the other side of the list and called a bunch of recent jobs. Same story they all loved him and a bunch have already had him back to do additional work. Check his spec's and his licenese is good and his insurances are up to date. He sounds golden right?
I'm still suspious of why he's so cheap and here's why I think. He uses less sub's than the other guys. He owns the fancy sychronized hydralic pump house lifting equipment and the staging and beams so he does not have to sub this out. He does the simple utility adapting himself inhouse also.
He didn't say this but I got a look at his current jobs sheet and I suspect that some of the subs he's using are not licensed contractors-the hauling-demo-labor guys are not I'd bet. Honestly I'm torn about this-I'm named as an additional named insured under his liability policy so I'm covered and these guys work for him not me so I believe that I am covered. The guy who was the highest I know only uses legal subs all thru-out. I agree with that in principal but damn now I'm facing a $20,000 dollar difference in price. To be honest, we really can't afford the high guy, for us doing all our own finish work that $20,000 goes a loooong way.
Apparently whatever the cheaper guy is doing exactly is working for him and the jobs are still high quality so that eases my mind a bit but still I'm torn.
I've talked to the middle price bidder and he's competed with the low bidder for a while and knows he does good work but just can't match his price.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Dan, what is it going to take to keep the utilities going?
Where does the water enter the house? Through the basement wall? And then upstairs or splits and water heater is in the basement also?
Either way, can you cut those lines going up, install ball valves and make up some pieces of PEX to bridge the gap once house is lifted? This ain't rocket science, even a mad scientist should be able to manage this on a weekend?
Same with the gas, there is a shut off somewhere outside the house, where does it go from there?
Same deal, except a little tricker with iron pipe, but there might be some place you can break the existing fittings and install a shut off and fittings to use a piece of flex once the house is up.
Go take a look, take some pics and post them.
Sewer is also doable, how many drain lines go through the floor into the basement and where will they be broken?
If you figure this out ahead of time maybe you can come up with a solution.
What you can't predict is what happens when you actually break the sewer. Antique iron pipe is beyond predicting, that might put you into a hotel for a bit.
Joe H
I do not know all the other details, but in general, I would not lift a house to replace the foundation with anybody living in it. Too much liability and extra worry. The HOs would have to rent something for a month or two, and that would be cheaper than the extra I would have to tack on for the extra work to keep it habitable and to work under the mental stress. But if he is willing to do it, he should be doing it under his terms
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Yea that's a reasonable thing to think. Guess these guys do it all day long for years so they got it down pat. Of course they would prefer to be doing this work on an un-occupied house but they all said they do the work on occupied houses all the time.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
I do not know you, the contractor, or the specific situation .... but my gut feeling is to dump the contractor ASAp, and find one you can work with.
Missing things in the plans is setting the stage for later "additional" costs. Less scrupulous contractors play this 'change order' game. Your relationship is troubled from the start.
Cheaper? Sure he is ... this is how he gets his foot in the door. When all is said and done, you'll have paid him more than the highest bidder asked for. The job will take longer, and leave you unsatisfied with the results. At best, this guy is a 'wannabe' contractor, flying by the seat of his pants, involving himself in a job way beyond his experience. At worst, he's a crook, pure and simple.
Fancy wording and clever clauses are limited by one simple fact: a contract is only as good as the parties to it. You will never, ever come out ahead when dealing with a scoundrel. If you're worried now about 'getting the words right,' you really need to part ways with this guy.
Winter is here. Even the busiest, most reputable contractor will be looking for work. I suggest that, when considering a contractor, that you ask to visit a few of his sites while his crew is there. Look at how the site is run. Here are some things to consider:
1) Is work being done 'in sequence?" Or, are they shingling the roof before the foundation is poured?
2) Where's the trash? All over the place? In a big pile? Is there a dumpster?
3) Look at the 'support' equipment. Are there enough ladders- and are they in decent shape? Are the proper lifts, scaffolds, and other heavy equipment present?
4) Look at the crews' vehicles. Company or personal? Maintained or wore out?
5) Look at his materials. Hint: Using Home Depot as a primary supplier is a bad sign.
Everything you said is totally reasonable and smart for an HO to think in a situation like this. I felt the same way myself. So we asked his references if the job came in at the bid price and they all said yes except when they changed their mind and he did a change order and they paid the upcharge.
He's been doing this since '88 so he's not new at this. In fact we asked the ref's about his price they all had the same story. He was cheaper than everyone else they couldn't figure out why but he did a great job and would not hesitate to use him again?
He did invite me to several current job sites that are similar jobs to mine. I went by one and looked pretty good. The place was clean and tidy, the workers were bustling, I didn't see any obvious signs of shadyness (no Home Despot stuff) the equipment appeared to be in good condition.....
I've tried to shoot him down because he was the lowest bidder but I have not been able to. It seems like we all are being unfair to him just because he is the lowest bidder.
Him missing a couple of things in the plans does bother me a bit but I don't expect anyone to be perfect which is why I am attempting to triple check everything before we go into contract.
Daniel Neumansky
Restoring our second Victorian home this time in Alamdea CA. Check out the blog http://www.chezneumansky.blogspot.com/
Oakland CA
Crazy Homeowner-Victorian Restorer
Dan,
Sounds to me like you've done a fine job of researching contractors. With 100% positive responses from his former clients, going back more than 10 years, I would be fairly relaxed about signing with him.
Having lived for long periods in spartan abodes, my I suggest that you and your family look upon this period of transition as an adventure rather than an inconvenience.
There are always ways to get around a lack of running water or having the electricity off for a day or two. Ask your neigbors to run a power cord from their house for your essentials. Ask them to use their shower or...just sponge bathe yourselves for a couple of days. Fill up your bathtub with water to use for the toilet tank and flush it only when necessary. Carry water from next door in five gallon plastic jugs.
This is all a good lesson in how dependent we've all become on the services which are part of modern life. It's also a great way to learn to conserve.
Best wishes, Peter
This is a pretty good thread actually. Ive seen some good info here.
I think you are seeing some knee jerk reactions from some of the respondants ( including me ) because you are laying out , to us, what comes down to a hypothetical. I don't see anyone nailing you on a "cheapest contractor" thing - I just see them worried about the scvope of work and making sure that the guy understands what he will be required to do.
You asked the question if it were reasonable to ask for the guarantee, and have come up with the conclusion that it is unreasonable, from the responses here.
I was one of the responders and I will tell you again that I do not think it is unreasonable.
It IS unreasonable if you expect someone to do this for free. It is unreasonable if you understand that it changes the scope of the project (responsibility, manpower to pull it off, temporary permits, hoops to jump through, contractual obligations to the signor) and are unwilling to compensate them for their extra burden to accomodate your wishes.
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City