My lead is currently out with a broken ankle, non work related injury. He came by the site this afternoon because I’m helping him with his doctor’s bills as we don’t have medical insurance. He mentioned to me that a mutual friend who owns a tree service company called him and started asking questions…. how much do I pay him, how many hours/wk is he getting, etc. You get the idea. It appears that this guy is starting an irrigation division of his company and wants my guy to work for him as he used to install irrigation systems and is quite good at it.
Now this guy, the tree guy, I’ve known fairly well for 3 or 4 years. He is actually supposed to look at some tree work on my new property once some of the snow disappears. We also ran a football pool together last season. I built an addition for him 2 years ago on his own house and that is how he knows how hard of a worker my guy is. We used to actually joke around about how he was going to get him on his tree crew. A little foreshadowing, I guess?
Is that dirty? Or is it just business?
I wouldn’t say we’re friends (especially not now! LOL) but we’re pretty good aquaintences. I know for a fact that my cell phone number is stored in his cell phone. He could have called me and given me a heads up… or even seen how I felt about it. He didn’t.
Soooooo…….. I called him. I said, “Hey XXXX, you know why I’m calling, right?”
He knew. I said, “XXXX, I have to ask you to not call YYYY and solicit him for your new division. You know that he is my lead guy and very important to my new business. I’ve invested alot of time and money in him and I owe it to myself and my company to ask you to look elsewhere for your hired help.”
He said, “It’s just business, Brian”.
I said, “You’re right. And now the seed has been planted. If he calls you looking for more information, then it’s fair game. But please don’t call him anymore”
He agreed, albeit begrudgeonly. I’m not sure he’ll stick to it. FWIW, I don’t believe that YYYY will leave me for this new proposition. I’m pretty sure I pay him more than this guy would, and I’m sure he couldn’t be treated any more fairly. I’m paying for a class he’s taking at the local tech, I give him ample bonuses for productivity. I pay him for holidays. I’ve loaned him money on several occasions and even bailed him out of jail once. Part of the reason YYYY left the irrigation business was because he got sick of being layed off all winter so I’m sure he wouldn’t look forward to that again. Besides, he seems very happy, and I’d like to think we are friends.
But….. I just don’t like it. What say you all?
Replies
It's a tough one to swallow... but it is just business.
If he was trying to backstab ya by telling him you "were in bad shape financially"... or he was making him offers that could never come true (such as "I will be able to keep you busy in the winter in the irrigation business in North dakota")... that could be construed as "dirty pool".
But, it doesn't sound like this is the case.
You were OK to give the tree guy a call... but don't expect him to honor your request to not contact him. You have positives that you have pointed out... and that is great. But you cannot interfere in your lead's ability to better himself (if this is a better opportunity). It will create animosity between you and the tree guy... AND with your lead. I know I would be sore if someone meddled in my ability to obtain a better job if it were out there.
I would suggest that you keep in good contact with your lead while he is out and assure him that his absence is not detrimental to his position with you.
You also may want to look into some medical insurance as a way to keep him around.
Without trying to offend anyone like a Tony Soprano out there--there is business and there is business. Some people use the reason that "it's just business" to justify anything. I think you shoul do everything in your life, including conducting business, the way you would like others to treat you. I think Mr. XXXX is out of line. Have him whacked. Hey, it's only business! ;-)
I guess that's what I'm thinking too Danno.
I know that it's not against the law or anything, but..... geez..... it's a big world out there. Go look somewhere else for your labor pool. I wouldn't do it myself. I mean, I kinda thought we were pretty close to "friends", you know? Not really hanging out socially, but running in many of the same circles both socially and during the course of business. I definitely wouldn't have ever tried to solicit one of his guys. He even went so far as to tell me that he has been on the other side before, and "it sukks". That what prefaced the "it's just business" statement.
What comes around goes around, I guess. I hope.
On the other side of things--I teach Tai Chi and when I came back to my home town I couldn't find a place to teach it. A friend of my brother asked him if he knew anyone who taight Tai Chi and he told her about me. She called and I said I din't have a place to teach and she said to call her friend at the community center. I did and was hired. I knew my old TC teacher had taught there, but had left a while ago and that it wasn't a happy break. Anyway, I get a call from my old teacher and he says he's very disappointed in me for taking that job without asking him first. That there aren't enough people in town to supply two teachers and some other stuff--lays a guilt trip on me.
I called the center and told them and that he said they had an agreement that they would never replace him (!). My contact said they agreed not to actively look to replace him, but since I came to them, they hadn't violated the agreement. So I still felt sort of bad until my wife said, "Look, if you were a psychologist (which is what teacher did for living) and you came to town, would you not practice because your former teacher was a psychologist?" Made sense. Plus, the student came to me because she did not like the class he was teaching in another location. Then about five years ago he stopped teaching, so....
vin.... couple things..
first , your guy told you about it.. good sign....nobody sneaking around..
but , you calling the tree guy is going to get back to your guy..so next time he might not tell you...
as you know, people will always do what they think is in their best interest..
so i wouldn't try to stop people from recruiting your help.. i'd work on making it be costly to your help if they leave..in other words.. they want to work for your company because it's in their best interests.... or what they perceive to be their best interests
in the last 30 years , i've trained a lot of guys... they've all gone.. some i encouraged to leave.. some i wish they had stayed, but really , there was no way i could keep them.. .. the ones i liked.. i still like.. i try to make certain that they have no regrets about leaving or staying..
in other words , if they get a better offer, they're gone... sometimes i can match it , sometimes i can't... but i would never think i was going to keep people from recruiting them.. doesn't mean i have to like the recruiters..but it is a fact of life...
part of what the guy who works for you is saying between the lines is " hey Brian, i'm in demand, what are you going to do to keep me?" is it going to be money, or working conditions, or respect , or opportunity......
kind of like the Patriots, huh ?
If it's Joe Shmoe company in the next town, you don't know the owner, and you just happened to catch this guy's work habits... It's business.
But if you know the owner of the company well enough to have run a football pool with them... You do business with them, and plan on doing more... It is dirty.
If the guy was going to get serious about trying to hire your lead, he should have talked to you first.
He already knows how important that lead is to you. He wants the guy so he can take advantage of the same qualities. Difference possibly being, seeing this guy's character, he might actually take advantage of them, while you appreciate and work with them.
He knows the facts... He knows you... He is pulling a dirty trick.
---
Why do I get the gut feeling that after your phone call, this guy is going to redouble his efforts, and will offer whatever it takes now, to get the lead from you.
I also have the feeling that if he succeeds, mr lead will be back on your doorstep sooner or later.
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow
It is easy to be friends with someone you always agree with.
I hate to say it, but I kinda wanna break his nose already. If he persues it further, I'm not going to take it well..... I'm taking it too personally.
What Mike said is very true, and I think I agree with all of it. I know that sooner or later, guys get good, want more coin, get better offers, etc. I mean, after all.... isn't that how my business started? I used to be someone's lead too. Times change, people come and go. I just expect better from my aquaintences, I guess. Time to lower my expectations, or change my aquaintences, I guess.
EDIT: Relax gang, I'm not really thinking about breaking his nose.... just expressing the fact that I'm taking it personally when I shouldn't be.... dat's all.
Edited 3/5/2005 6:19 pm ET by dieselpig
brian... don't get me wrong... the tree guy revealed his true nature.. i wouldn't trust him with a 10' pole..
i'd still use him for trees.. but not for trust
i was just talking about keeping and developing people..if you want to build a business, you need a system and you have to fit the people into the system.. kind of like the Patriots , huh
( can you tell i just re-read the E-Myth Contractor again )Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I think I could sum up my whole life with sports analogies. I love them and use them with the guys all the time. Not sure what that says about me, though. But they all know I'm pretty fed up when my answer to their question is, "punt".
I hear you Mike, and thanks. I think I've got my head around this now. He's a dink. And it is just business. I must be doing something right cuz my guy is staying put. I should be focusing on that point and not this A-hole.
I think it just stung a little. I don't like gettin' stung I guess. I'm also a little grouchy cuz I used a hammer tacker to fasten my fingernail to the outside of a window opening today.
A 12 ounce finish hammer works much better for that.
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow It is easy to be friends with someone you always agree with.
No sweat. If the guy got hurt on yer job, and ha no recompse from you or insurance..he just got hurt. IF he had insurance, he might be a BIT more loyal, but..it's a big but.Tree guy needs him, you need him..deal with a straight hand..tell wounded guy..ya want him..don't even offer a raise..just tell him ya want him. Tree guy may counter with the $ issue, but wounded guy most likely will stay..it's like tryin to fill an inside straight, but..I'd do it.Worse case, ya lose him till he falls outta a tree, and comes back to you.(obviously, I don't know either party, and results may vary..LOL, but I'd be inclined to let wounded find out if it's what he wants to do, when he takes over OXY TREE service..he may help YOU>
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Restoring, Remodeling, Reclaiming The Quality..
I've had guys "stolen" from me...I was pissed, but they were going on to a better job, for themselves....I always knew it, but I came to to a realization that I shouldn't stand between anyone and their personal betterment, no matter how much I had invested...if I could offer them better, then I should pony up...I bettered my position, why shouldn't they? Don't worry, we can fix that later!
Diesel, I don't think you should be upset at all. You should have used the information to immediately heap some praise on your lead..as in "...of course he wants you to work for him...who wouldn't?. Lots of guys could use a great lead like you in lots of different businesses! I'm glad you like carpentry. You aren't planning on leaving the trade are you?"
Every man deserves to do what's best for him and his family. If switching careers is something he needs to do to progress, then you should encourage it since there obviously is some sort of glass ceiling.
If you don't have a glass ceiling, your guy will only leave if you aren't living up to your end of the bargain.
What are the long range plans for your lead?
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Blue.... you're right and I agree with you.
My only point was that I thought maybe it was dirty for a "friend" to pull a move like this without making me aware of it.
My plans for my lead for the future..... I want him to be me. Sort of. I would like to disappear for a week and have the progress look the same as if I had been there. Same amount of production, same quality of work. That's what we're working on. I would like to send him home with a set of plans and have him tell ME what our price should be. It's a work in progress.... like the rest of the business. Although he is my lead.... he probably wouldn't be a "lead" per say on most crews. He's the best I've got and is full of potential. We are working to maximize that potential daily. He's a Brazilian native who speaks fair English so there is still a communication problem somtimes. I'm trying to learn Portuguese while he's learning English. He's a very bright guy with a family and a strong work ethic. We try to use a "chain of command" of sorts on the site.... a short chain... but still a chain. I encourage the other guys to go to him first with problems/questions.... if he can't help them, he comes to me. It forces him to think for himself and make decisions.... and deal with the outcome.... good and bad. I tell him all the time.... make a decision and live with it. He does very well with additional responsibility I can tell he seeks my approval. Not that my approval is something everyone oughta be striving for ;) but for him, that's a good thing.
Like I said to Luka, I realize people come and go. People have to do whatever is best for themselves and their family. I fully understand this firsthand as my last boss was, and still is, one of my closest friends. I just thought that my "relationship" with the tree guy deserved a little courtesy. I'm all for my guys "bettering themselves" and wouldn't try to stand in the way of that. But the whole thing had a very greasy feel to it.
Diesel, you sound like your treating your guy right. I now understand more clearly your dilema with your "friend".
Don't let the guys attempt bother you, or let it get in your way of whatever relationship you had. You have to understand that everyone of your guys is fair game for every other employer in this country, every day. Instead of fretting about it, just call the guy up if you guy stays and have the last laugh on him.
I myself would "steal" any guy, but I wouldn't steal one if it was going to directly affect a business relationship. I also don't hire guys away from other framing crews in a sub even if they approach me. I would hire away the plumbers laborer though, unless I knew it would damage a relationship and cause me to suffer in the eyes of the builder. That said, I don't remember ever stealing a guy, but I would if it made sense for our company.
I've manipulated deals that gave me the better job and left the bad ones for other contractor friends. I get a chuckle out of explaining how I did it...many years later of course. Instead of getting all pissed off, it's better to just laugh it off and learn from it. I know they'll be trying to get me back....I'm always distrustful when a "buddy" trys to "help me out".
blue
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
..I'm always distrustful when a "buddy" trys to "help me out".
Don't you think that's kinda sad.... or am I just naive?
No Dies, it's not sad, its business...you know the tenderlings get eaten.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
I think the best you can do is continue to nurture your relationship with your lead guy, let him know how much you respect and value him, personally and as an asset to your company (sounds like you are doing that).
One thing that isn't good, is for him to pass up an oportunity out of loyalty to you. That can lead to resentment later on. It's really important for him to recognize working with you is his best option, wether you pay him the most or not. As long as he considers your working relationship his best option, he'll be content and productive.
I'd have a serious discussion with him about future offers he gets, though. I'd ask him to at least come talk it over before reaching a decision to leave. Maybe you'd decide the time was right to let him go, or maybe you'd try to match whatever offer he was thinking about. But honestly, the times I've left one job for another seldom was because of just money. Usually there were other issues as well.
People get divorced, change careers, change employers within the same career all the time. Change happens.
Free the Sancho!
What Mike said is the whole truth and nothing but the truth. And he has laid out the best way to handle it.
Now for the unpopular part of my post. If I were looking to expand my business and needed a new guy to head it up and I knew from watching how good your guy is you bet I would take a shot at stealing him. It is just business. And building my business takes the best people I can find.
If your guy is unhappy, and it sounds like he's not, then I want to try and get him on my team. If he is happy where he is and says so, we are all done. But if he calls me later................well.
Like Mike said if you are doing what you can for the guy and he appreciates it then he is going to stay and thats all there is to it. But you can't blame a guy who is looking to fire up a new division for looking at a guy that is trained, works good and is ready to go. Take it as a compliment in your training. But you can't keep all the good people all the time. I have lost them and gained them though the years. It is just business.
By the way on the health care front I found a policy through our local builders exchange that offers a $2500 deductable but has some co-pays for $400 a month for my guys family. He pays half and I pay half. Won't save him a ton on a normal year but does keep him out of bankruptcy if he has a major medical deal. DanT
Thanks Dan... but seriously.... if that's your take on it..... we wouldn't remain friends for very long. I think there are somethings more important in life than "just business".
I understand where you are coming from. I just don't consider you doing an addition for me and me doing some tree work for you a friendship. Co-proffesionals yes, fellow business owners yes, brothers in arms of the small business world yes, friends? No.
Friends are the let barbeque together folks. The call me when the kids do something folks. The lets go to dinner once in awhile folks. I will admit though. I don't have many friends. Huh. Maybe its me! Lol.
Seriously I think it is paritially your view on what you consider friends. I can count mine on one hand and maybe a finger or two. The rest are just associates. But I also realize that others feel that if you have a relationship of any sort that constitutes friendship and you shouldn't tread on that ground. We will just have to agree to disagree I guess. I would steal him! lol. DanT
I'm also a little grouchy cuz I used a hammer tacker to fasten my fingernail to the outside of a window opening today.
I knew there was something else going on the minute I read your first post!!
I'm laffin, sorry.........dam hammer tacker...........
Tree boy's a bag.
You're a sweet peach for helpin' out your guy. Not a lot around that would.
I just hope he knows that, otherwise he'll get what he deserves.
A job with the tree bag!!! hahahah!
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
My guy is a good guy.... and we both know it.
I'll be honest.... I don't treat all my guys the same. Some are there for a paycheck.... that's fine.... it's a fair deal for everyone. Some guys are there for more than that. Especially with a small business.... it's more of a family of sorts. We spend 50 or 60 hours a week a few feet apart. I see more of my guys than I do my wife.... literally. We see the best and the worst of each other..... you find out real quick why we are all really there/here. About once a week my dude's wife brings him in to work because she needs the car.... they bring the baby with them and he makes sure I hold her.... even if it's for just a minute or two. Stuff like that says a lot about what's really going on.
The cat I'm talking about in this post is 1 in 500 guys, I'm guessing. He wants to learn, he's honest, and I believe actually cares about my well being. He doesn't treat me like an ATM machine and does the same quality of work at the same speed whether I'm looking or not. That's why I'm carrying him while he's out. Other guys on my crew would never get treated like that..... because I know I am simply a means to an end for them. I'm their cash cow..... put in most of their hours and collect enough coin to get through another week. That's fine too.... it takes all kinds. But you get out of life what you put in, you know? Now, I wouldn't ever let my other guys know what I'm doing for him because it would just cause bad blood.... besides, it's none of their business. And my dude also knows that if he ever let the cat out of the bag.... the ride would be over.
And the hammer tacker? It met an unfortunate demise against the side of the dumpster a moment or two after inflicting said injury upon me. Not sure how it happened as I'm pretty sure I couldn't have thrown it while stapled to the third floor exterior wall. But who knows, eh? Stranger things have happened.
I like the exchange of opinions in this thread.... diverse and fairly passionate. Seems as though most of us think either I am dead wrong for meddling, or "he" is dead wrong for meddling. Interesting and pretty cool.
For those of you that think 'tree dude' was in the right...... let me throw this out there. Why does it seem that you all feel that it is cool for him to do whatever he needs to do to better his business, but that I am out of line for trying to preserve what my business has going for it? What's the difference?
Now I understand that my employee is the X factor here. You all seem to say that I shouldn't get in the way of my employee having better opportunities and I agree with that. I truly do. But if it's all "just business", why shouldn't I do everything in my power to preserve my business?
Should I turn my back on small-time local suppliers for big box discounts? It's just business, right? Should I have twenty of you guys come to my site to bid the same work and find the "low man"..... hey, it's just business, right? Should I show your quote to your competition to get a better price for myself? It's just business, right?
Are we saying that what's important is not what you lose, but what I gain?
Isn't there such a thing, unwritten as it may be, to business ethics? Someone mentioned 'brothers in arms' in small business, but then implyed that loyalty or honesty didn't have anything to do with that? How does that work? Shouldn't I conduct my business the way I conduct my life? Buck mentioned that it's not like he's trying to steal my wife..... what's the difference? Do we have a different set of ethics and standards for our business lives and our personal lives?
"Tree guy" said to me, plain as day.... "I've been on your side of this, and it sucks". Why do it to me, then? Why not be part of the solution, rather than part of the problem? He also said to me that, "it didn't feel right when I called him, but I had to ask". What's that all about? Sounds like he had a gut-check that he ignored, no? If it was all on the 'up and up', why not give me a call? What would have stopped him from calling me? He had my phone number..... he had to call around to track down my guys phone number...... why didn't he call me for my guy's phone number? I say he knew it wasn't an honest thing to do, and was betting on me not finding out until he had the opportunity to romance my dude for a bit.
So are you guys saying that it's ok to ignore those 'gut check' moments..... all in the name of business?
Anything to get ahead, right?
Just trying to dig a little deeper.... maybe I'm missing something..... enlighten me, I love the exchange.
Diesel, I'll try to explain.
First, understand that every one of your employees is a free agent because you haven't signed a contract. You possess the power to sign your guy to a contract and specify the length, but that would be risky and you choose not to do so. Therefore, your guy is open season all day every day.
Second, have you considered how you've harmed your employee by conspiring "behind his back" to limit his opportunies? Who's the bad guy here?
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
You're not answering any of the questions, Blue.
Open season? Yep, you're right. What if I know something that my employee doesn't know? What if I know that this guy is dirty enough to play cut throat with me, then he's dirty enought to do it to his own kind? What if I know that this guy is a "you're fired before you hit the ground" kind of guy? Does that change the equation?
Why are you assuming that he was getting a better offer than the package I provide my employee?
Is it my job to educate my employee on this other employer's shortcomings? I say it's none of my business. I'm not going to lower myself to trash talking his business.... can't help 'em, then don't hurt 'em.
If we follow your logic.....
Why am I a "bad guy" for "limiting my employees opportunities"? And the other guy is a good guy for limiting my opportunites by trying to steal my lead? What's the difference? After all, since my well-being apparently doesn't count for anything, why should my employee's either..... that's your argument right? That of the three parties, me, the other guy, and my employee.... my best interests fall LAST in line? Why shouldn't they come first if "it just business"?
You're not answering any of the questions, Blue.
I'm answering them Diesel. I'm saying it's not "dirty" to make offers to other workers, even if they currently are employed by a business acquaintance. I'm saying that it is an understood fact of life that all employees are open season, unless they are under contract. You've made a business decision to leave a key employee available (you could put him on salary, sign a contract, etc). You've taken a calculated risk, now your wanting to eliminate that risk for free.
Open season? Yep, you're right. What if I know something that my employee doesn't know? What if I know that this guy is dirty enough to play cut throat with me, then he's dirty enought to do it to his own kind? What if I know that this guy is a "you're fired before you hit the ground" kind of guy? Does that change the equation?
If you know something that your employee doesn't, that represents knowledge. Knowledge is the critical key to successfully negotiating any sale. You may not know it, but at this moment, you are in the process of selling your company again...to your employee!
Why are you assuming that he was getting a better offer than the package I provide my employee?
I'm not making that assumption at all. All I'm saying is that this employee has been approached, fairly, and you're the one trying to eliminate the competition without negotiating with your employee. You're trying to bully the competition into leaving you alone. If your "package" was truly superior and meets all the needs of your employee, then you don't have anything to worry about. But, it's important to understand that the suitor is willing to promise the world, and you are trying to limit your potential losses. If you don't aggressively sell yourself and your company again to your employee, you risk losing him to your own cockiness.
Is it my job to educate my employee on this other employer's shortcomings?
Absolutely, unequivocally, resoundingly yes!
I say it's none of my business. I'm not going to lower myself to trash talking his business.... can't help 'em, then don't hurt 'em.
No one would advocate trash talking but I would strongly advocate laying out the facts, unembellished and attempt to build solidarity in positive terms.
If we follow your logic.....
Why am I a "bad guy" for "limiting my employees opportunities"?
That's called collusion. You are conspiring with others, who have the power to hire and fire, to limit your guys opportunities. Your are attempting to limit your guys economic mobility without compensating him.
And the other guy is a good guy for limiting my opportunites by trying to steal my lead?
The other guy is just making employment offers to competent workers. Its done every day in the classified want ads. The details of your personal relationship are beside the point. In the end, the guy understands that he may alienate you, but he is willing to risk the relationship. Obviously, his personal business needs are greater than his relationship with you.
What's the difference? After all, since my well-being apparently doesn't count for anything, why should my employee's either..... that's your argument right? That of the three parties, me, the other guy, and my employee.... my best interests fall LAST in line?
Your best interests count for a lot...with you. The competition's best interests count for exactly the same....a lot...for him. The employees, predictiably are exactly the same again...for him.
Your trying to create an unbalanced order of self interest....everyone's takes a back seat to yours. You can obviously quickly understand that it's every man for himself, right?
Diesel, you mentioned it before...yes, you are being naive. Dont take that as a slam. That can actually be a strength. Now, look beyond your own personal, moral, ethical world and get to work re-securing that business relationship you have with your employee. Find out what he really wants and needs and then meet them and get on with your business.
I've suggested a pretty good book that might clear a lot up. It's called First, Break All The Rules. It's a management book and this is a normal management issue. You might be surprised to find out that you aren't meeting this guys needs and the other guy might be tapping into them better...and it might not be about money!
blue
edited for spelling (beyond was spelled behind)
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Edited 3/6/2005 11:25 am ET by blue_eyed_devil
Great post Blue... thank you.... and I don't take your honesty as a slam at all.
But I think you may be missing something..... I am already doing everything I can do for him. He's not working right now.... but I'm still feeding him cash. I'm paying his Dr.s bills. I'm leaving his position open until he's healed. He is already paid what he is worth.... maybe a little more as incentive. His last raise was a 10% increase and came 8 months after his last raise... that was two weeks ago. I kind of get the feeling that you think I was paying him low wages with out any perks and was simply trying to preserve that by calling 'tree guy'. I need to make it clear that this is not the case. He is treated fairly and award for the good service he provides with both money and encouragement. He has job security and I provide steady work. He is treated with utmost respect and I'm trying to meet him halfway but learning his language while he learns ours. Again.... you keep telling me what I need to do assuming that I'm not already doing those things.
I dont' agree with your 'collusion' theory. He already made the call..... and he can call him again if he wants to.... nothing I can do about that. If my guy was going to leave.... it'd be done. Working for me is a good gig.... I know it and he knows it. You said I am attempting to limit my employees economic mobility without compensating him.... that's not true at..... again, you're assuming that I'm paying low-dollar and 'tree guy' was offering top dollar.... that's not the scenario at all. If that was the case.... my guy would be gone. He's not.... I'm doing something right.
Again, my only real question, and now something that I think I've formed my own opinion on is/was....... was it shifty for this guy to call my guy without making me aware. I think it was. Many of you don't. Fair enough, right?
Your trying to create an unbalanced order of self interest....everyone's takes a back seat to yours. You can obviously quickly understand that it's every man for himself, right?
Well doesn't that contradict alot of what you're telling me? Is it really every man for himself, or am I meddling in something I shouldn't be? Other employer gets the green light for trying to swipe my employee. Employee gets the green light for shopping around. I get a big fat red light for looking out for my best interests. It doesn't wash.
One final note.... if 'tree guy' was on the up and up.... why would he be asking what I'm paying my employee? Why wouldn't he just make an offer for what he thought the open position was worth? He was looking out for his company's best interest, right? The almighty dollar? Isn't he "trying to limit someone's economic mobility" by seeing if he can just barely undercut me? Further more.... isn't he trying to limit my economic mobilty by taking a valuable employee of mine? Isn't that the same sort of meddling you're accusing me of?
DP, let me weigh in with a pespective similar to your guy's. I've been in his shoes. I worked for a restoration company for about 12 years. I built up the roofing department from one guy ( me ) to about 15. We became the best around at what we did and consequently ended up subbing to several of our competitors who did not have a full time roofing crew. When the competition saw how I ran my crews and the skills and scruples I had, they started trying to steal me away. Most of it was subtle, like "if you ever get tired of working for XYZ, give me a call". Some of it was blatant ("How much would it take to get you to come work for me?"). I had great respect for my employers (still do), but I always felt that trying to steal help was a little underhanded, and would never want to work for anyone that tried that crap. I remained loyal to the guys that had been loyal to me. When I decided to leave, it was to go back in business for myself. Take good care of your guy and hopefully he'll reciprocate until it's time for him to move onward and upward. Don't get too bent out of shape by the tree guy. He's just one of many a$$holes you'll have to deal with this week.You're almost as paranoid as the people that're trying to kill me.
But I think you may be missing something..... I am already doing everything I can do for him. He's not working right now.... but I'm still feeding him cash. I'm paying his Dr.s bills. I'm leaving his position open until he's healed. He is already paid what he is worth.... maybe a little more as incentive. His last raise was a 10% increase and came 8 months after his last raise... that was two weeks ago. I kind of get the feeling that you think I was paying him low wages with out any perks and was simply trying to preserve that by calling 'tree guy'. I need to make it clear that this is not the case. He is treated fairly and award for the good service he provides with both money and encouragement. He has job security and I provide steady work. He is treated with utmost respect and I'm trying to meet him halfway but learning his language while he learns ours. Again.... you keep telling me what I need to do assuming that I'm not already doing those things
Diesel, I'm not making any assumptions. It wouldn't matter if your guy was making 100k when every other lead in town was making 50k. If that was the case, it would be obvious that he was special and therefore worth it, and you would have MORE people trying to hire him. I really think you should pick up that book asap and figure out that money and respect isn't everything. You keep mentioning those things as if they are the ultimate, but that is not the case. They are factors, but are you 100% sure that they are the most important factor? The book opened my eyes. I started looking at all my employees from a different perspective.
Lets stop using the word steal ok? You don't own him, I've already mentioned what it takes to keep others from hiring him. Sign the contract and include whatever clauses you need to make you feel safe.
Let's assume that your buddy decided to call you. Should he ask your permission? What if you say no? Does that mean that forever all your employees are offlimits? If we use your business model, ALL employees that currently have a job are off limits for offers. Help wanted ads would be construed as unethical...dirty.....because those that are presently employed could look at them.
Its not dirty, it's just one way that managers use their networks to fill holes in their staff. If you've properly managed your business, your employee should feel free to come to you and you and him can use the moment to deepen a bond. Maybe I've brainwashed my guys but we've discussed the fact that occasionally other contractors will attempt to drive a wedge between us. I treat this like a football game...and we're playing to win, as a team. I do remember a time when my guys called me because they were off a week in between jobs. The competitor in the sub had tried to hire them for the week. Because all of this was discussed previous to the incident, they called me before accepting the offer. I asked them to pass on the offer and just collect unemployment. That's what they did. There are sound business reasons for not helping the competition. I explained them and we stayed together as a team.
It's okay if you think this is dirty. I don't get that excited about it because I expect it.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
What blue said!
Mr T
I can't afford to be affordable anymore
1) if working for you is as good/better than working for company X, then there's no reason for the employee to leave and no reason to get upset that he had a chance to hold his head a little higher for a day or two.2) this is a battle of Ts&Cs aided by inertia (people don't like change); and that's how you're expected to protect your company and retain employees; you can't build a prison and walls are bad PR (just ask East Germany); similarly, some large corporations make it a condition of employment to report if you've been contacted by a corporate recruter or to pass names to a recruter. So any act of retaliation is simply over the top and unprofessional (and if word of it got out, may not be beneficial to you).3) if you believe your position is better, and the employee chooses to leave, then you either have a bigger problem, or the employee was going to walk anyway.4) if I had a personal relationship with another small company owner, then maybe I'd expect him to let me know he was going to make an offer (in this case, apparently no offer had been made yet) - but you had no real personal relationship with "the tree guy", only a professional/comunity acquaintence..
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
brian..... there's "business" and then there's enlightened business
you go into business with a blank slate. a year goes by.. two.... five ten years..
every encounter , people walk away from with you, leaves an impression
your tree guy left a bad impression.. in a small town like mine.. i'd put his name in my list of those who don't practise the golden rule
so.. i still do business with those guys.. but there is no more trust.. and trust is a commodity
my former employees all have an opinion of me.. former partners.. and all of my competitors..
if tree guy was trying to pick up one of my employees.. i wouldn't be shocked.. neither were you..
i'd make sure my valued employee knew he was valued by me.. which you did
i'd let tree guy know he crossed a line.. which you did.. i wouldn't pursue it.. i'd just acknowledge to him that i knew he was recruiting on my turf and that it was not something i looked favorably on
it was not unethical , but it was sure not something i'd do to one of my subs.. nor would i expect them to do to me.. if it was a complete stranger.. that's different..
tree guy is trying to drain the swamp without looking out for the alligators
some people are relationship people.. some are not... my subs are all relationship people.. that's why we get along and watch each other's back..
apparently , some who are reading this thread think you arfe screwing over your employee, but that is not how i read it.. your problem is not with the employee, it's with a sub who betrayed your trustMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Bingo!
Now why couldn't I have said that instead of rambling on and on over the course of like 10 posts?
Whatever.... just more stuff they don't tell you about when you file for that 0-4 number.
"For those of you that think 'tree dude' was in the right...... let me throw this out there. Why does it seem that you all feel that it is cool for him to do whatever he needs to do to better his business, but that I am out of line for trying to preserve what my business has going for it? What's the difference?"
He offered a job to the employee who is a free agent and can do as he wishes when offered a better situation. You went to the tree dude and told him to stop which is like saying he can only offer jobs to people whom you have cleared through you. If you want to keep your guy ask him where he stands and counter offer if you think he is going to make a move.
"But if its all just business why shouldn't I do everything in my power to preserve my business?"
You didn't do anything but tell someone who has every right to offer someone a job to stop. You aren't looking to compete to keep your guy you just want the other employer to stop.
"Should I turn my back on small-time local suppliers for big box discounts? It's just business, right? Should I have twenty of you guys come to my site to bid the same work and find the "low man"..... hey, it's just business, right? Should I show your quote to your competition to get a better price for myself? It's just business, right?"
Sure it you want to run your business in this manner have at it. I certainly consider price when it means profit at time in my business and in my opinion you should to. But on the other hand I use more expensive suppliers at times if I need services they provide that make my business better. I buy all faucets at a local supply house because if I have a problem with one they stock parts. But they have to order all but the very basic bath tubs and cater to new construction so Lowes gets my tub business. It simply is a decision on what makes sense for my business, not their business.
"Are we saying that what's important is not what you lose, but what I gain?"
Look, when it comes to me being worried about feeding your family or mine. Mine wins. And that includes the families of the employees I have. And if expanding my business inhibits yours, sorry. Do I want you to fail? Absolutely not. Do I think their is enough money for all of us. Yep. But your business is not in my business plan. So what happens with your business is no in my equasion as far as what I do with mine.
If you aren't sure of the difference between your wife and your lead employee this is the wrong discussion board for you.
So you are suggesting in a free economy with out slavery and communism that this tree guy shouldn't offer your guy what he thinks is a better oppurtunity? And you claim you only want whats best for you employee. I think you are not being entirely honest here. You are thinking in the manner you are preaching against. You are thinking only in your own best interest.
About 15 years ago I ran a large maintenance operation at a prison. We didn't always pay the best but we had by far the best benefit package in the area. I had a guy that was a fantastic worker, cared about his work, on time, little sick leave use, great personality. The kind of guy I thought might take my place some day.
One day he walks in and says "I need to talk something over with you. I have a boilers operators license and Whirlpool has offered me a job for $3 more an hour and almost exactly the same benefit package". I asked if he would enjoy the work and he answered that he always enjoyed boiler operation. I said "take it, it would be better for you and your family in the long run". He was stunned. He took the job. I missed him terribly but it was the best move for him. Have seen him a few times since and he always thanks me. I would rather have kept him.
There is nothing dishonest about what this guy did. He simply offered someone an oppurtunity and you have the oppurtunity to match it or better it. Just because he and you have done business together doesn't mean he owes you an invite into his business strategy or his next move. That employee is not your possesion. He is a hired hand doing a job for the money you agreed on and nothing else. If business got slow and you had no more money would you go in debt to keep him? DanT
Dan... for what it's worth.... I was playing Devil's Advocate.... sorry you missed that part.
My point being..... you seem to feel that all's fair in business as long as it is good for your business. My point was that if that is your stance..... how can I be wrong for discouraging someone from trying to steal my lead. You are preaching a double standard. The other guy was in the clear because he was just looking out for his business....... therefore..... you can't say I was wrong for looking out for mine.
If you aren't sure of the difference between your wife and your lead employee this is the wrong discussion board for you.
That was just a weak cheap shot.... you know that's not what I was saying. Don't go down that road with me Dan. You're better than that.
Look, I'm not saying you have to agree with me, or the tree guy. I'm just saying that is the way it is and some (me included) view it differently. I simply don't agree with you, or Mike for that matter, that this guy breached your trust by trying to hire your guy.
Would I like it? Hell no! Would I think the same of the guy. Probably not. But I wouldn't not do business with him nor would I think of him as the enemy. And although I think you took the wrong approach if that is the one you are comfortable with of course I don't think you are wrong looking out for your business. Its just business.
As far as the wife thing. You can be mad if you want but you said it and I responded. Just because you meant it tongue and cheek doesn't mean I would take it that way. Family and co-workers are a big difference to me, maybe not to you and that is all I was saying. DanT
I'm not 'mad' Dan, I just thought it was pretty lame. I thought you were better than that.... I stand corrected.
Better than what. Responding to your question?
"Buck mentioned that it's not like he's trying to steal my wife..... what's the difference? "
Now if you didn't mean it don't print it. But to refer to me as lame or "better than that" for responding to what you asked? DanT
Dan, I'm thinking that if your reading comprehension is as poor as you are trying to convince me it is..... maybe this isn't the forum for you. Sorry you decided to take this thread down this road..... it was going along nicely without your nonsense.
Nah, your right and I'm wrong. In the future I just need to understand that you don't mean what you type. You mean something else and I should try harder to figure out what to respond to. I'm sorry. Maybe you can cue me into the code. Every third item you write isn't meant the way it reads, is that it?
Or maybe you assumed I would be able to tell by the tone of your voice which items you are saying tongue in cheek. Or maybe you assume everyone values their relationships the same and since we know each other so well that I would know how you feel about your spouse. Yeah, thats it. Since we have always had long deep off board conversations and know each other so well I would know exactly how you felt so it was inappropriate of me to respond in a negative manner to what you said. Yeah, thats it. I'm wrong and your right. Sorry. DanT
You guys married??
To each other??
bich bich bich bich bich!
:)
is this dirty
Does this make me look fat
do you really love me
Mr T
I can't afford to be affordable anymore
Edited 3/6/2005 5:21 pm ET by Mr T
Whatever Dan.... feed the fire if you want, but it's burning out anyway. I'm not taking the bait..... too bad because this was a pretty good discussion, I guess it was inevitable someone would steer it this way.
We don't agree.... fair enough.... why make it personal? You know as well as I do how it went down..... don't try to sell me this crap about you not understanding me. If you can't understand.... ask for help I guess.
"I'm wrong, you're right".... what is that crap? The world doesn't need another martyr Dan. Collect your Oscar for the great acting job in your last post and move along.
Just wanted to thank everyone who offered up their input in this thread... I think it was pretty good and I appreciate everyone's varying opinions... it's nice to look at things from the other side of the fence sometimes... and educational too.
But I think it's run it's course.
Later.....
Wait a minit!!
I missed sumptin good!
I know I did
ortherwise it wouldn't haver been deleted.
DANG!
a fellah cant even instigate a good argument aroundhere anymoor
Mr T
I can't afford to be affordable anymore
Actually... you didn't miss anything at all T. That was me. I took a shot at you for being bitter today and then deleted it.... you're entitled to a bad day now and again just like the rest of us. Wasn't really a shot.... I asked if you had anything positive to add instead of being bitter... then I inquired what was 'really going on' with you today.
You were right though.... it was starting to get a little bitchee around here and I don't want to go there.... least not today anyway.
Later bro.
Have a cold one on me dude.
winterblahs afect even the best of us!
I've learned not to take anything here too seriously anyhoo.
Actually this threead is one of the better ones lately.
alot of good points of view were exchanged and I actually lernt sumpin!
miracles will never cease!
lately this place has been pretty dry.
I think the free Sancho stuff was a good outlet for everyone.
Maybe the sysops are playin us for chumps????
Nah!!! pass me a banana and check my head for fleas
Mr T
I can't afford to be affordable anymore
Edited 3/6/2005 6:41 pm ET by Mr T
I think maybe the problem is I'm not offended easily enough.
There's a guy .... subed for him for a coupla years. His biz tanked ... in the end ... he did do unethical stuff ... screwed a coupla employees ... guys that I do consider friends.
Word on the street is .... he's looking to start up again.
He's a great designer .... always had great projects to work on .... design/material wise ... usually had great customers ... lotsa money ... open to new ideas ... not afraid to pay for the very best in life.
he tried ... but never screwed me. I'm a good read ... I'm also not an easy mark.
In the end ... I always got the better out of our deals and his renegotiating tricks ...
A buddy he screwed ... was the one who told me he was planning on coming out of hiding.... my buddy says ... Who's ever be dumb enough to work with him again.
I said ... Me! 'Cept now ... my rates would be higher ... and I'd get lotsa more money upfront ... and my payment schedule would realy really favor me. I'd let him know up front ... I want to be way ahead of the work on my payments ...
I'll make a deal with the devil. I ain't scared. If he needs someone to build nice things for his customers ... I'll go do it.
My buddy .... he'd not even consider it. I don't blame him ... but he was screwed because he "let" the guy screw him. My Dad always told me ... "People treat U the way U let them treat you" ... I firmly believe that. I'm in control of my situation ...
And if I can make more money ... faster ... by working with the devil ... I will.
It's not like we're talking about contract hits on kittens here ...
We're talking about nailing stuff together for strangers.
Just because this guy may make some money off my labor ... why the hell do I care. I only care about my bank account. I don't have time for my buddies soap opera. My kid is hungry today.
I've gone back and worked for people that have actively tried to screw me in the past ... I just go in knowing full well their position. I protect myself ... and double the rates. If they want me bad enough ... I'll gladly take money from someone I don't like. Again ... "I'm here to make money, not to make friends" ... I'll take most anyones money. I don't have to like someone to work "with them" ... it's not like I'm driving to work holding hands with the guy and taking long walks on the beach on breaks ...
I'm building crap and he's cutting a check every Fri. That's abnout the extent of our relationship, ya know ... my buddy wants his money ... go get a bat and make a house call at 3am? He left lotsa people hanging .... but for some reason ... I always got paid in full. I even got my last check by saying ... I could care less about your money problems ... and could care less who U screw ... but U are paying me.
and he did ... and would again.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
diesel.
Based on what you've said about how you're treating your leadman, you're treating him better than most people would. In my book, that ought to inspire loyalty to you. The fact that your leadman came to you and let you know he'd been approached shows that, I think.
Having a good employee leave does suck, I've had it happen many times over the course of 25 years. Whether they start looking, or someone recruits them, what's the difference? Some people just need change, even if things are good. "The Grass is greener" syndrome. Maybe the spouse thinks they can do better, or some other reason.
Others have said it, and I agree, that you seem to regard your guy as your property (else how could the tree guy "steal" your guy). Kind of like having a serf or indentured servant; no one has the right to approach them with a job offer, because they're your property.
I know that you have a lot invested--professionally, financially, and emotionally--in your guy. If he's mature, he's likely to stay with you. There are a lot of factors that'll influence that decision, even if it's clear to you that he couldn't do any better working elsewhere. Sometimes it's just being recruited that's flattering, and that'll sway your guys decision to leave.
I think that the tree guy wasn't dirty or underhanded for approaching your leadman, and I don't think he had any obligation at all to "clear it" with you or even advise you of his intentions. That attitude sounds like rolyalty's attitude towards their servants! That they somehow own them, and no one dare try to make them a better offer. Pretty "old world"; employee as property.
Now if the tree guy was someone you saw frequently, had coffee with weekly or someting like that, I'd say he could've given you a heads up, as a courtesy. But it is business and I think there's nothing unethical about recruiting an employee from whoever. It's your choice whether you want to do business with the tree guy any longer, or even say hello to him on the street.
I hope that your leadman stays with you, you sond like an excellent empolyer and good guy. If he leaves to work for the tree guy, and doesn't like it, would you take him back?
Cliff
I must have missed something here; I though no offer had been made yet ?.
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
The actions taken by your acquaintance piss me off. A person should be able to assume that no real man will take advantage of him. But you are letting this guy anger you and he is consequently controlling you.
But another part of me says that you shouldn't deny this worker a chance to improve his life and career. If you aren't "keeping up with the Joneses" with your pay rate or your leadership skills, then it should be expected that he will seek better work.
But another part of me says that you shouldn't deny this worker a chance to improve his life and career. If you aren't "keeping up with the Joneses" with your pay rate or your leadership skills, then it should be expected that he will seek better work.
I'm in complete agreement. But don't you think that my relationship with the tree guy deserved some or respect or courtesy? Talking to me first couldn't have done any harm. He knows how to get a hold of me.... why wouldn't he? Because he knew I'd be ticked..... that shoulda sent off a "gut check" in his head, right? There's nothing I can do to stop the conversation between them, or even stop my guy from leaving.... so why not make the phone call and let me know of his plans? Because he knew it was wrong, I say.
I absolutely think he should have talked to you first! He is simply taking advantage of your generosity. He's playing the "Easier to ask for forgiveness than to beg for permission" angle.
Next time you meet, kick him in the nuts. :)
"but seriously.... if that's your take on it..... we wouldn't remain friends for very long. I think there are somethings more important in life than "just business". "
guess we're not gonna be best buds either ... because DanT is right, in my opinion.
it is business .... it's not dirty.
the guy isn't trying to steal your wife ... he's trying to hire a good worked away from you. All that good worker "owes" you is working hard for the agreed upon pay. All you own his is to pay that agreed pay for the hours worked.
If he wants to stay around ... he'll work a bit harder.
If you want him to stay around ... you'll offer a good work environment ...
But ... you don't own him.
and ... your company's best interrests aren't his. Himself and his family should be.
One of my favorite phrases ... "I'm here to make money, not to make friends"
I make friends all the time ... I get along great with my subs ... but I also realize we're all here to make money then go home. I don't live with my subs ... I live with my family ... so my subs ain't at the top of my list.
BTW .. "what if" the tree guy is gonna match your current package ... AND .. ad in health insurance?
sounds like a better deal for your worker.
U gonna suggest he run over and accept it? U guys are friends, right?
U should want whats better for your friend, right?
what about the ress service friend? He needs good help ...
why not send him one of your best? Friends right ...
see ... it never works both ways ...
admitting it up front is easiest for me ...
here to make money ... not to make friends.
I don't have enough money ... got enough friends.
it is just business.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
See now, I'm really surprised about how this thread is going. I went back and looked through.... I counted five people who clearly thought it was a dirty move and four people who clearly thought it was all in a day's work. Then there were another four who didn't take a stance on whether it was dirty or not, but chose to just offer advice on how to deal with the situation.
Interesting..... pretty much a dead split. I guess it takes all kinds.
Now that I've wrapped my head around it some more, I think I've reached my own personal conclusion. I think he was a snake for making a move on my guy.... I think he should have informed me of his intentions, my opinion and maybe my view of the world is skewed. I also think that my guy has every right to explore every opportunity presented to him.... for two reasons..... one, so that he has opportunity for individual growth, and second, so that he can see that he's already got a pretty good deal. I also think I owed it to myself and my business to call tree dude and let him know I didn't think it was cool.... at least tree guy now knows where I stand. I also won't be sending any more work his way and secretly hope that a tree falls on his new truck.
Thanks to all who responded for your interesting perspectives on it all. No blood, no foul, right?
'Night.
"I also think I owed it to myself and my business to call tree dude and let him know I didn't think it was cool.... at least tree guy now knows where I stand. I also won't be sending any more work his way and secretly hope that a tree falls on his new truck."
and to farther twist things ... U know where I officially stand ...
and I agree with what ya just said 100%!
even though I fully know and understand "it's all biz" .. and .... "I'm here to make money, not friends" ... doesn't mean if someone else tries to "steal" my employees I ain't gonna call them for a face to face!
I'll walk away from that face to face full well knowing that it's "all bisiness" .... but I wanna be standing there first to have them tell me "it's all business" ...
I'm funny that way?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Since you're counting noses, I might as well weigh in too. But I'm also responding because I think you are one of the neatest guys around here -- smart, savvy, interesting -- and from the pics I've seen, you do great work. That said, I don't think the tree guy was wrong in what he did. He's seen this guy working on your site, listened to your comments about him -- so why wouldn't he give the guy a call to find out if he had any interest in another job? Should he have sought your permission? I don't see why he should; it is your guy's role to report the offer, in part to help you see that he has "market value." I think workers want 3 things: respect, appreciation, and money. I've seen too many construction sites where workers were treated like dirt -- interchangeable parts.If your guy has special qualities and you want to keep him with you, then you need to spend enough off-site time with him to determine what his motivations are, what he cares about, what kind of work he wants to be doing in 5 years, 10 years, etc. Armed with this information, you can decide what kind of plan you can offer him to generate long-term loyalty. There may be a lot of little things you can do to further strengthen the relationship you already have -- things that won't cost you a cent. Sometimes inviting a guy and his family for a backyard BBQ will do more to cement a working relationship than a fist full of dollars. As far as money/benefits are concerned, if you want to keep him, you're going to have to find a way to make sure his compensation is near the top level of leads in your area.I hope you don't take this as criticism. Clearly you like this guy and respect him, and on this level, I am simply encouraging you to dig a little in his psyche to make sure that he is getting what he needs from you. Then, look in your pocket and figure out how many dollars he is worth to your operation.All of this may strike hard-bitten construction types as too much romancing/bullshid. But this is the way any really good corporation approaches a valued employee they want to keep around for the long haul. Good luck.
LOL!! I would hope a tree fell on his truck too! Even though I would do it too and understand where he is coming from I still wouldn't like it. But unless I had another tree guy that was as good I still would send him business. I hate to recomend crappy people. DanT
I would not consider the guy a friend anymore but I still would do business with him. One of our competitors (who is also a supplier) has offered every one of our top employees a job without giving us a heads up. None of them has taken the bait and I don't think they will but we will still do business with him.
I wouldn't extend a lot of trust to this guy but I don't want to see him hurt. People do a lot worse things than this and we do business with them every day. That's all it is.
What Schell said.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Well put 1 more vote on the "Just binness" side of the ledger.
As the resident "prepetually dissatisfied employee"
I gotta come down on the side of "your" guy just wanting to better himself.
This is a free Country the tree guy can talk to "your" guy any time he wants.
you are basically saying "your" guy can only better himself by going to work for someone you have no aquantance with.
That narrows down the opportunties for the guy!!
Talk with him let him know you appreciate him.
If he decides to take a better offer congratulate him on moving up.
As for the Irrigation guy. Talk with him also.
Let him know that while you can't stop him from hiring away your guy, a call would have been more upfront.
If you don't want to give him any more of your biz then that is your call but that sword cuts both ways.
as far as this binzess/friendship argument goes, I believe that the healthiest relationship for a boss/employee or a contractor/sub lies somewhere in the middle.
If you treat it as a black and white issue then one of you is always gonna be "hurt" when something falls in the gray area.
I know I just said I was on the "just biz" side of the arg. but you want a black or white answer not a gray one.
Mr T
I can't afford to be affordable anymore
XXXX isn't doing ethical business....
let him run a help wanted ad..
he's taking care of his own at yur's and YYYY's expense...
XXXX oughtta work fer Wally World instead...
I say dirty pool...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
I just got here and havent read the thread .
You posted this , so you asked for it . Right ?
We dont have slavery any more in the United States. We abolished it years ago. You or I dont own anyone. If you were truly sss friend , you would want the best for him.
How would you feel if someone else kept you from a job opportunity , when it was none of their business? Would you call that person a "friend'?
Just callin it like I see it .
Edit; now Ive read it . For xxx , you handle him any way you deem necesary. Is he important to your business ? If hes not or I could replace him then I guess he would have a little less work. I believe in fair trade and enterprize. If I dont like a man on your crew because he wears ear rings , I dont have to hire you to ever come back! It doesnt make any difference what the reason might be as thats , "the way it is ". It is our choice. DW has a sign on her door at work.
"The customer is the boss. He is the boss because he can simply take his work else where for any reason he deems necesary. That puts you out of a job. "
Thats the American way and I believe in it .
Tim Mooney
Edited 3/6/2005 9:59 am ET by TIMMOONEY52
If you have a relationship with this tree feller, then it is stealing. The "its just business" line is simply rationalizing an act of theft.
You recruited him, you nurtured him, you trained him, you are teaching him leadership skills-and this ahole is just going to pluck this guy right from under your nose?
I dont think so.
Its not like you are paying your lead 4 bucks an hour, or are doing something to deserve this hostile move.
Like someone said already, let him take out a want ad already.
Its disturbing to hear all the "hey its only business " lines being thrown around.
If it's only business, why not just keep deposit checks on new work and not ever show up?
Lots more profitable that way! Or skip window flashing or using one nail per stud or no tyvek or ...........
Corporate Recruting is an industry all by itself. There are hundreds of companies out there with only one product: they go out and "poach" able workers from one company to work at another. They get paid very handsomely for this work.So, while you may not like it or believe it to be unethical, it's an established and accepted business practice..
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
You oughta read the thread Tim..... as sure as you are with your opinion, there's an equal amount of guys who are dead set the other way..... very interesting.
To:
dieselpig <!---->
(35 of 44)
55083.35 in reply to 55083.1
I just got here and havent read the thread .
You posted this , so you asked for it . Right ?
We dont have slavery any more in the United States. We abolished it years ago. You or I dont own anyone. If you were truly sss friend , you would want the best for him.
How would you feel if someone else kept you from a job opportunity , when it was none of their business? Would you call that person a "friend'?
Just callin it like I see it .
Edit; now Ive read it . For xxx , you handle him any way you deem necesary. Is he important to your business ? If hes not or I could replace him then I guess he would have a little less work. I believe in fair trade and enterprize. If I dont like a man on your crew because he wears ear rings , I dont have to hire you to ever come back! It doesnt make any difference what the reason might be as thats , "the way it is ". It is our choice. DW has a sign on her door at work.
"The customer is the boss. He is the boss because he can simply take his work else where for any reason he deems necesary. That puts you out of a job. "
Thats the American way and I believe in it .
Tim Mooney
Edited 3/6/2005 9:59 am ET by TIMMOONEY52
Standard joke (I'll paraphrase).
Workers come smart and stupid, hard-working and lazy, meaning there are FOUR types of people you will hire in your lifetime as a boss.
1) The stupid and lazy. Huge number of such folks available, but that's okay, there is also an endless supply of boring mindless jobs to be done, and they aren't hard to get rid of for cause when they aren't needed.
2) The productive and stupid. Avoid these monsters like the plague. They will create problems faster than you can scamper around behind cleaning up the messes they create, but being hard working, they are really difficult to offload to get them to stop causing trouble.
3) The brilliant and hard-working. You will be so lucky in your lifetime to employ but one or two of these gems. When you do, recognize what you have and do absolutely everything in your power to reward and nurture these people to keep them in your fold.
4) The smart and lazy. You only need one. HIRE that person for sure and put them in charge of the whole works.
Dieselpig,
It sounds like you're an upstanding kind of guy who wants to live in the past. Years ago that sort of loyalty was expected and rewarded. withthe new dog eat dog world I'm afraid the days of loyalty are past us.
It happened once downsizing became an acceptable practice.. major corporations would fire people to temporarily shore up their bootom line.. Thus the top mamangement could get a bonus based on that temporary benefit.. (I won't deal here with the social impacts of those decisisions), however here is a little test to see if you reciprocate the loyalty you seem to expect. (I don't know you so please don't be offended if I ask)
1 Have you kept people on payroll even when there isn't work?
2 Do you promote from within?
3 Have you ever taken a pay cut or worked for little to ensure your crew has work?
If you answer those three questions yes then you got the shaft, if you answered no then ou are living to the new ethic and then it's just business.
Now while I agree with you in everything you said I find it interesting that while I thing the tree dude did nothing unexpected or morally wrong I can answer yes to all three question. The last one in the last 90 days. Interesting. DanT
frenchy..
the golden rule is not just a bunch of pap..it's also good business
i've been in the Lions International Club for 30 years..
every year we induct new members .. and we all renew our dedication to strive to live up to some ideals..
here's a Code of Ethics that pretty much describes my thoughts and.. when i'm on my game.. my actions..
(yeah i know.. i slip up a lot )
<<<
Lions Code of Ethics
To Show my faith in the worthiness of my vocation by industrious application to the end that I may merit a reputation for quality of service.
To Seek success and to demand all fair remuneration or profit as my just due, but to accept no profit or success at the price of my own self-respect lost because of unfair advantage taken or because of questionable acts on my part.
To Remember that in building up my business it is not necessary to tear down another's; to be loyal to my clients or customers and true to myself.
Whenever a doubt arises as to the right or ethics of my position or action towards others, to resolve such doubt against myself.
To Hold friendship as an end and not a means. To hold that true friendship exists not on account of the service performed by one another, but that true friendship demands nothing but accepts service in the spirit in which it is given.
Always to bear in mind my obligations as a citizen to my nation, my state, and my community, as to give them my unswerving loyalty in word, act, and deed. To give them freely of my time, labor and means.
To Aid others by giving my sympathy to those in distress, my aid to the weak, and my substance to the needy.
To Be Careful with my criticism and liberal with my praise; to build up and not destroy. >>>
anyways.. brians question was .." is this dirty".. hmmmm.... dirty ?
nah.... but is it something you would expect from a business relation that you trust ? no.. it isn't .. it doesn't pass the duck test..( walks, talks, quacks )
trust is earned... and nurtured.. and it's not naive to think that the people you trust would not attempt to recruit your best worker.. or any worker..
it may be business... but it ain't my style of business.. and it won't pay dividends down the road
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Whya are so many here ASSuming that Dieselpig is trying to keep his lead man from bettering himself ???He has made it amply clear that his problem is with the underhanded tree cutter. And that if his lead man wanted to take a better job, more power to him. He SAID that he understands that. He even said that he understands that that is how he got to where he is himself. He is not griping about possibly losing the lead man. He is griping about the underhanded way the tree guy tried to get the lead man away from him.As for this being the new way of business, so we have to learn to live with it... Or that is just how business is done... How sad.And... Bull.No one HAS to set aside ethics and deal themselves down to the lowest common denominator.Maybe all the efforts to make Diesel the bad guy here, are really just efforts to cover up guilty concisences for having bought into the "do unto others before they do unto you", instead "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" school of business...
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow It is easy to be friends with someone you always agree with.Free Sancho ! (When you buy Gunner for 3 easy monthly payments of just $1.50)
"Maybe all the efforts to make Diesel the bad guy here, are really just efforts to cover up guilty concisences for having bought into the "do unto others before they do unto you", instead "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" school of business... "
Well I can't speak for anyone else but I think I was clear in the beginning. I would try to steal the guy, hire the guy whatever if I needed him for my business. And I am not trying to make DP the bad guy. I simply think there are two schools of thought here and both work. Guilty concisence? Not here. Just a different view of how to do business and what is ok. DanT
Dan,Relax.; )It's cabin fever season.My post was meant to be a dose of tar and mollassess to this thread.A bit of hair of the dog that bit ya.Get people all worked up over an obviously ridiculous statement... Then say... Yer all taking yerselves too seriously.LOL(You know, I don't know about all of yall, but I always kind of suspected that the fear of grandma getting out that spoonfull of tar and mollassess was enough to keep the sickliest of my peers, healthy. He He.)Now all youse guys kiss and make up, and get back to being the best bunch of friends a hermit ever had.; )
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow It is easy to be friends with someone you always agree with.Free Sancho ! (When you buy Gunner for 3 easy monthly payments of just $1.50)
Whoa , wait just a minute.
My object was not to make him look bad . I respect him and he has a better plan . Hes investing in his employee . Hes surrounding himself with good people and that is the mark of a leader. If this plan works of his he might have a very big company with several leads. I hope he is profitable too. Nothing but respect in his corner for his methods building his employees. He could be a very strong contender in business. Ive got some personal knowledge about it I cant share. Lets just say Ive seen the plan make a wealthy man.
I just disagreee with the dirty part is all .
I think he has also handled himself well considering the thread. Pretty cool headed under some fire. Very reasonable too.
If the truth be known , his help would not leave anyway . I have knowledge about that too. In reality , its not an issue, unless there was reason for the lead to tell him which would be dumb when hes getting hand out money, dont you think? I think the reason the lead told him was [it didnt need words] the relationship they have together. The circle will remain unbroken .
I feel I was abrupt . I feel like Mike did a good job explaining himself, but I dont agree .
I fall into the Frenchy, Blue, and Dan T thinking . But I have different points.
If Dan and I were to be together , bidding against each other at an auction , we could go together and get somthing to eat afterwards and enjoy it . Thats because we both understand the business were in. I for one dont have loyalty to my renters that comes in front of my family. My banker expects me to perform as she does financially. One way or the other Im going to collect rent . There are several diferent ways of getting it done and Im going to be successful. If I were to talk about that , there would be folks here disagree with my methods. Im very sure there would be . I cant pay all the payments I owe by working , so I cant rely on me to actually earn them. Its comming out of their pockets one way or another. If they cant pay then someone else will. Thats business .
You have some good points and you have done a good job in this thread expressing yourself. I believe you to be honest ,and believe what you believe and are willing to stand behind it. Thats good traits.
Frenchy didnt finish. There has also been the move to get rid of management since Ill say 911. Stock markets deal with it too . The owners want their bottom line out of their companies one way or the other . The people who produce or the early bird gets the worm thrive on that philosophy. We are living in a business world to day that wants a bottom line to live on.
He forgot the tounge-in-cheek emoticon.
Don't MAKE me come over there....
; )
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow
It is easy to be friends with someone you always agree with.Free Sancho ! (When you buy Gunner for 3 easy monthly payments of just $1.50)
you've probably closedthe shop on this one but I'm 100% in your camp on this one - righteous indignation appropriate
been around here very little of late but your thread takes me back to one I just read concerning fulcrums, block and tackle, slung projectiles and the like - man that tree guy did not know what he was getting into
just because it is doesn't mean it is ok or that we shouldn't challenge it
best way to get through this would be to take a five mile run w/ your Brazilian helper and talk about your appreciation of him and his speaking to his desires and expectations ( ankle injury so you put him in a wheelchair and push him the five miles )
enjoyed ( laughed aloud ) at greencu's 62 of 80 message ( and cried ) and made a note that Luka's 65 of 80 was hot
yell, scream run and have more fun w/ your wife and kids than you ever have and hope the tree man does not come in your sight
live it better each day John