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is this way outside of anything you’d do

ponytl | Posted in Business on September 6, 2007 02:57am

this is almost creepy….  dude that owes me a ton on money… i call him my son but he’s 25yrs older than me… but seems i support him alot…

he has a ton of medical things wrong with him… i passed the point of ever expecting him to return the money i’ve loaned him… or for him to pay for the suff of mine that he’s  “borrowed”

he called me and the doctor told him there is nothing they can do for him…

he told me to buy some insurance on him so at least someone would  send some flowers  and that maybe i could buy enough to cover what he owes me…  the guy was very serious about it…

told me he never expected to live this long anyway… and was tired of be’n in pain, alone, fat & drunk….

i just told him not to die right away and i’d get back with him on it

creepy huh?

P

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Replies

  1. User avater
    Gunner | Sep 06, 2007 03:09am | #1

       I don't ever think this has been approached in the business folder. As a way of making money anyway. LOL

       It's an interesting idea. On one hand it seems as if you are preying on the insurance company. Using insider info. On the other hand the guy is being practical, and realistic. Do you really need the money to survive? Is it going to matter if you never get it back?

       Another idea. Does he have kids, or a wife that might benefit from an insurance policy more then you? Maybe you could take it out for them. Your a giving guy that takes care of people. I wouldn't be surprised at all if you did that.

       I'm just curious. Could the insurance company protest if all of a sudden you took out a policy on the guy and he died a month later. It does seems suspicious.

     

    .

     

     

    Whale Oil Beef Hooked.

     

     

    http://www.walkmoreeatless.com/

    1. ponytl | Sep 06, 2007 03:58am | #4

      this guy wrote the book on being a "character" so i guess more info was needed in my post...   he's a nam vet , agent orange, ex racer who held world speed records in class...  his quotes .... i have repeated many times... "you lie & i'll swear to it" never let the truth get in the way of a good story"... his personal best "better to be a hasbeen than a never was"

      he's one of those guy you love to love ... but he has screwed everyone ...

      "i don't even owe him any money  wonder why he don't call me"

      he doesn't avoid anyone he owes... just  tells em... hell if i had money you'd have money too...

      has been fired from every job he ever had....  first day on any job and he's act'n like he owns the place and make'n rules...  to hear him tell it  he's made 1000 people millionaires...

      basicly the doctors told him... this is the last open heart  we're doing on you (his 4th).... kinda told him the return on investment just wasn't there  (the VA) which knowing him i well understand...

      he really is 100% disabled (agent orange) but they have been hope'n he'd die before they ever had to pay... 10-15yrs of paperwork to get his check and still zip...

      with all his health issues he still drinks a case of beer a day... is huge.... and eats ####....

      he has an ex wife who is more crazy than him....  comes by his place if he's passed out and takes whatever money is in his pockets and buys lotto tickets with it... has 2 kids... both pretty good considering who raised them...

      if he offs himself tonite... I'll know he was one of the ones who lived more than most ever will... he'll live on in stories told...                               at least until all the old guys are gone... everyone has a story involve'n this guy...

      he was serious about the insurance.... I kinda think it was his way of telling me "hey i really would like to see you paid back for all i put you through" 

      btw this is the same guy i let live in one of my buildings and while there he sold my powermatic 24" planner and my dust collection system... then he bragged he got $300 for it...  i'd just paid $1875 for the planner/surfacer and all the blades was like new... had to be 500lbs....  he almost didn't live past that one....

      anyway... this ain't the first time someone told me to buy insurance on them... has happened 2x before...  both are now dead  and nope i didn't either time... those times didn't seem as creepy... one a business partner  older... it was "key man" insurance... the other a whole different story... but  this one creeped me out...

      not sure if you could even buy insurance on this guy...  but i do know alot of people when faced with the news of die'n... go buy cars... make sure they have insurance that will pay off a mortage and credit card debt...

      hell i guess we're talk'n business Gunner

      p

      1. User avater
        Gunner | Sep 06, 2007 04:11am | #7

           Well given the whole story. I still don't know. Nahh I probably wouldn't do it. He does sound like one unique individual though.

           And always remember. It's not a lie, if I never intended to tell you the truth. I can't remember where I heard it but it always makes me chuckle.

         

        .

         

         

        Whale Oil Beef Hooked.

         

         

        http://www.walkmoreeatless.com/

        1. ponytl | Sep 06, 2007 04:17am | #8

          can't see me doing it...  what would i put down as "relation to"  leinholder?

          p

          1. User avater
            Gunner | Sep 06, 2007 04:24am | #9

               Snork.

             

            .

             

             

            Whale Oil Beef Hooked.

             

             

            http://www.walkmoreeatless.com/

          2. simple_man | Sep 06, 2007 06:13am | #10

            What your friend is proposing is similar to what is called a viatical.
            Viaticals are the sales of terminally ill peoples life insurance policies to investors. The amount paid is based on the life expectancy of the seller and is discounted more the longer they are expected to life. You may have trouble buying insurance on him, but he could take out the policy with you as the beneficiary.You may find it creepy but is one of the fastest growing investment opportunities. And don't feel bad for the ins. companies they know how to play there side of the game.simple

          3. Piffin | Sep 07, 2007 12:47am | #22

            "what would i put down as "relation to" leinholder?"No need to be a relative - only to show interest.I can buy a life policy naming a crediotor as my beneficiary.
            Corporations regularly buy policies on their key executives - or say a company in R&D can buy a policy on their most creative staff. These people are the income of the company so it has a financial interest in their life Their death would hurt the company - same as with you and his death.... 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          4. ponytl | Sep 07, 2007 01:08am | #24

            an old guy i use to work with...  was one who told me to buy "key employee life insurance" on him... i didn't....  he died...  don't know that i lost  $$ because he died... he was just a good old guy and i really think he wanted me to cash in on his passing...  I couldn't do it then and i won't do it now..  i do know partners who have insurance on each other...  I just kinda thought it was an interesting subject and think i'm like most that see it just a bit creepy...

            and yes chances are this guy will live 5-10 more years... I think his call just proves he's a drama queen... I've always asked him to provide proof from a doctor that he even had a heart...  he's yet to provide it...

            p

          5. Piffin | Sep 07, 2007 12:29pm | #25

            "his call just proves he's a drama queen.."That was my gut feeling after reading more of your comments. I wasn't trying to talk you into or out of doing anything other than buying him dinner. He just wants an audience, and you seem to enjoy his company occasionally - for the entertainment if nothing else. 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          6. BryanSayer | Sep 19, 2007 04:36pm | #31

            Some corporations even buy insurance on low level staff. If the pool of staff is large enough, the corporations make money. There was an article about some companies doing that a few years back in the WSJ.

      2. Piffin | Sep 07, 2007 12:42am | #21

        I'm not sure if you would be able to buy and collect on insurance on him. Lots of policies have a one year wait on pre-existing conditions as a cause of death. You also sometimes need to have interest to show a right to buy. If you had a notarized promissory note, I would think that would cover.
        Smaller policies don't require a physical first, but some do have a statement of health conditions.FWIW, I have a BIL who has had three heart procedures and the last attack they nursed him through but refuse to do any more cutting on him.That was four years ago and he still smokes. He could check out any day noiw or could live another ten years. 

         

        Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

  2. MrBill | Sep 06, 2007 03:09am | #2

    P,

     I normally would not respond to a thread like this but ..... you absolutely need to call someone right now, not ten minutes from now, not an hour .... RIGHT NOW. Call a suicide prevention line and ask thier advice .... call the police and ask them .... but call someone NOW and get him some help. If you dont, and he does something he shouldn't do, you will never be able to live with yourself.

    Just my opinion,

     

    Bill Koustenis

    Advanced Automotive Machine

    Waldorf Md

    1. rich1 | Sep 06, 2007 03:52am | #3

      heard of a guy who did this for a living.  But he had no "inside" info. Just played the odds.

      1. JohnT8 | Sep 06, 2007 04:26pm | #14

        heard of a guy who did this for a living.  But he had no "inside" info. Just played the odds.

        Sounds like WalMart.  Lets hire the REALLY old people, get big insurance policies on them, and then stick them by the front door where they'll get blasted by freezing or blazing hot temps every few seconds.

         jt8

        "I was gratified to be able to answer promptly.

        I said 'I don't know.'"

         -- Mark Twain

  3. User avater
    rjw | Sep 06, 2007 03:58am | #5

    I'm with Mr Bill

    First, listen to this: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6615437

    Maybe the guy is scamming, but consider the alternative.

    And, unless it's a scam,  go to him.  100%.  Don't expect him to come to you, or to seek help, if what MrBill and I imagine might be happening.

     


    May your whole life become a response to the truth that you've always been loved, you are loved and you always will be loved" Rob Bell, Nooma, "Bullhorn"

    "We Live"  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kuBgh0VCqI&mode=related&search

    And Annie Ross's "Twisted" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lqivrCIRGo&mode=related&search=

     

    1. ponytl | Sep 06, 2007 04:10am | #6

      he's had bigger reasons to off himself than this....

      i did just call him my first words were "you still alive"    for the record he was...  told him i didn't want to be buy'n any insurace on him only to find out he was already dead... that they wouldn't return my deposit in those type situations...

      anyway he's come'n to see me .... my guess right before lunch... he has great timing that way...

      basicly what the VA told him was... we fixed you for the last time.. don't come back cause there is nothing else we can/will do... so maybe they fixed him where he'll last for awhile... who knows... he's the type that would live just to pizz you off

      p

  4. User avater
    jonblakemore | Sep 06, 2007 06:31am | #11

    I think that you could be asking for trouble if you were to do something like he's suggesting.

    From what I learned in my "Legal Environment of Business" course in school, there is a principle called "insurable interest". This is actually a law in many places, from what a remember, that keeps people from purchasing policies on someone that they think may pass on.

    Kinda like the laws that we have that will not allow one to sell their body to science for money (I tried).

     

    Jon Blakemore

    RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA

    1. JohnT8 | Sep 06, 2007 04:31pm | #15

      This is actually a law in many places, from what a remember, that keeps people from purchasing policies on someone that they think may pass on.

      What's the point of buying life insurance on someone you don't think is going to die?jt8

      "I was gratified to be able to answer promptly.

      I said 'I don't know.'"

       -- Mark Twain

      1. User avater
        SamT | Sep 06, 2007 04:42pm | #16

        IMO, Life insurance is just like Las Vegas; The House bets you'll live long enough that your monthly Ante's will cover the pot, or you'll get tired of playing and fold.You're betting that you'll die soon enough to win more than you've put on the table.The house sets the odds so they get rich.SamT

        1. JohnT8 | Sep 06, 2007 05:08pm | #17

          That's a good analogy.  Insurance IS the same as gambling.  And just like those big casinos in Vegas, life insurance companies didn't become multi-BILLION $ corporations by paying out more than they were taking in.

           jt8

          "I was gratified to be able to answer promptly.

          I said 'I don't know.'"

           -- Mark Twain

      2. User avater
        jonblakemore | Sep 06, 2007 06:22pm | #18

        Sorry, I left out a few critical points.You cannot insure someone unless you have a good reason to. You have to have a stake.When I said "pass on", I meant very soon, not just in general. 

        Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA

    2. Piffin | Sep 07, 2007 12:49am | #23

      With the debt, he does have an insurable interest 

       

      Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

  5. JasonG | Sep 06, 2007 03:22pm | #12

    If you find an insurance company willing to insure a terminally ill patient, the cost is going to be prohibitive - paying $22500 for a $25k policy, for example. My uncle attempted this after being diagnosed with colon cancer . . . $100K policy would not pay anything unless he lived 2 years and payed nearly 90% in premiums anyway.

    The insurance companies also have "fine print" that limits or cancels any payout for the first year or more if death is a suicide. Time limits may also apply for murder and the terminially ill. If they didn't, doctors and nurses would simply buy policies on every terminal patient and keep them on life support until the premium check cleared! (A bit of exageration, but you get the idea).

    Jason

    1. GregGibson | Sep 06, 2007 04:20pm | #13

      Jason and Simpleman hit it on the head - if he doesn't already have life insurance, he's probably uninsurable.  With 3 or 4 heart surgeries, oh no.  No one is going to touch him.  Time bomb.

      There's a two year incontestability period, too.  If death occurs for any reason in the first two years of a new policy, the insurance company has a right to shut down and they take the questions on the application apart in infinite detail.  If there were any mistruths, it's void.

      There's also the deal about "third party" ownership.  You can't just take out a policy on someone that you don't have an insurable interest in.  As was said, he could take out a policy and name you as the beneficiary, but it would have to at least look like HE was the one paying the premiums.

      Probably a dead end street.

      Greg

      1. MikeHennessy | Sep 06, 2007 08:01pm | #19

        "You can't just take out a policy on someone that you don't have an insurable interest in."

        True, but if the guy owes him $$$, he DOES have an insurable interest, for at least the amount of the debt. Still, probably couldn't get insurance anyway.

        Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA

  6. Piffin | Sep 07, 2007 12:34am | #20

    I'd buy him dinner and pass on the insurance

     

     

    Welcome to the
    Taunton University of
    Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
     where ...
    Excellence is its own reward!

  7. HammerHarry | Sep 07, 2007 12:42pm | #26

    First off, I can't imagine that you would be able to get insurance on him - he probably wouldn't pass the medical.

    Second, from a suicide point of view, most policies won't pay off on suicide within the first year.

    Finally, this sort of arrangement is done for business partners all the time, to protect assets.  It's not really any different from having life insurance on a mortgage, is it?  Just because the 'loan' in question isn't formalized.

    It's really not a bad idea in general, but since his doctor would likely have to fill out a medical history form for the insurance, I can't see it happening in this case.

  8. robert | Sep 19, 2007 01:17am | #27

     MAde me think of this.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Eyed_Six

     

     Moonshine Church was just off post at my last duty station and Frank Stichler is burried between the tank trail and the hard road leading out to the Ammo Point.

     Stichler was originally burried at the old  moonshine church but his family moved him for fear his grave would be vandalized.

    1. GregGibson | Sep 19, 2007 05:25am | #28

      Holy Cow, Robert !  Indiantown Gap !  Moonshine Church !  The Six Blue-Eyed Bandits is what we used to call them.  Man, I hadn't thought of Moonshine Church in many, many years.  We used to drive by it at night with the headlights off.

      My old Boy Scout Camp, Camp Bashore, is right there, just yards from the Appalachian Trail.  We used to watch the helicopters from Indiantown Gap on maneuvers.

      Thanks for the blast from the past !

      Greg

      Edited 9/18/2007 10:31 pm ET by GregGibson

      1. robert | Sep 19, 2007 06:02am | #29

         Camp Bashore is alive and well.

         If you haven't been by in a while you might not recognize the Gap.

         Business is good, lots of new facilities.

         Ever hear the old tale about how every once in a while someone will commit suicide in the church yard and if you trace the family tree they are related to one of the jurors from the trial?

         Man the stories the locals tell about that place.

        1. GregGibson | Sep 19, 2007 02:16pm | #30

          Wow, that was a great place to be a kid.  This was 1967 - 1970 or so.  I especially remember the huge deposits of glacial granite boulders on the top of the ridge where the AT came close to the Camp.

          I hadn't heard the story of the suicides.  There was the legend of Old Black Joe that was told at camp.

          Greg

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