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Is tile critical on a low shower ceiling

cscafidi | Posted in Construction Techniques on October 26, 2006 09:44am

Hi all. I’m new to this wonderful site and have a question. I hope I have listed it uner the correct category. Anyhow, I’m installing a shower in my basement that I’m finishing and the ceiling is relatively low. There is only 1.5 to 2 feet max clearance from my head to the ceiling. I’m average height, just under 6 feet. I plan to tile the walls of the shower but am concerned about water spashing off one’s head and getting onto the ceiling. I have used paperless, moisture resistant drywall (which the Home Depot people told me was better than the green board stuff) on the shower walls and ceiling. I plan to but backerboard ontop of this drywall before the tile for the walls, but was planning to leave the ceiling with just the drywall. Some have told me to not worry as the drywall should be fine and the water will just drip off due to gravity. But I’m still concerned and am wondering if I should just tile the ceiling to be safe. Or is there another application that would suffice too?

Any suggestions and comments are greatly appreciated. Thanks!

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  1. TJK | Oct 26, 2006 10:00pm | #1

    We owned a house with a low (7') ceiling in one shower. It had the water-resistant wallboard for a ceiling and standard, semi-gloss bathroom paint. We never had any issues with peeling paint. I suppose kids who intentionally spray the ceiling or a very humid climate might make a difference, and in those cases tile would be needed. IMO the key is to make sure the space has adequate ventillation so excess moisture in the air doesn't linger.

  2. WayneL5 | Oct 27, 2006 12:17am | #2

    I think you'll likely be fine, since in a typical shower the tile or the stall comes up only 6 feet or so and the wall above is painted.  Even with regular paint and drywall that most builders use there aren't problems on those walls.  Especially if you leave the bathroom door open after showering and have good ventilation I would not expect problems.

    I can highly recommend Zinsser Mildew Proof Bathroom Paint.  It is self priming and produces a really smooth, tough, and cleanable finish.  It's all I use now in bathrooms.

  3. FastEddie | Oct 27, 2006 12:21am | #3

    Should not be a problem, unless you run the glass door all the way up and create a sauna.  As long as there is a foot gap above the door, just be sure to put ona  good coat of paint.

     

     

    "When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it."  T. Roosevelt

  4. Geoffrey | Oct 27, 2006 08:59am | #4

    As already stated, ventilation is a must!! and vent to the exterior not any interior space like an attic or crawl space. Do I understand you already hung the drywall? If so don't bother going over it w/ a backer board as you will then have to contend with the top edge of the backer being exposed, unless you run it all the way to the ceiling. Also you may run into problems w/ your shower valve not having enough extension to allow the handle or face plates to be attached.

    If you haven't hung the drywall yet, don't, take that stuff back to Home Cheapo and go find Dens-Shield by Georgia Pacific, by far the best tile backer around! It also needs no vapor barrier behind it like cement boards and drywall do, you did put a vapor barrier in didn't you? Densshield is available in 3'x5' or 4'x8' sheets and the stippled face is waterproof, there-by needing no vapor barrier, and it cuts and installs just like drywall!

                                                 Good Luck!  

                                                                   Geoff  

    1. DonCanDo | Oct 27, 2006 01:26pm | #5

      I agree that Dens-Shield is a great product, but just to be clear... the OP wasn't planning on tiling directly over drywall.  He was going to use drywall and then tile backer (with a vapor barrier between, presumably).  It's an extra step, but should work just fine.

      Getting advice from anyone at the big box is a real crapshoot.  I've overheard lots of wrong advice and I've heard some good advice.  Both stated with with the same confidence.  How do they know if the paperless drywall is better than greenboard?  That subject came up here a while ago and I don't recall any overwhelming consensus.  I figure the folks here are many times more knowledgeable than the "stock boys" at the big box.

      And by the way, there's Dens-Armor and Dens-Armor Plus (both paperless).  They're different.  I don't know which one is being sold at the big box.

      And another thing... just in case we're tempted to simply follow the manufacturers guidelines (which is generally a good idea), it should be noted that Georgia-Pacific is still suggesting greenboard as a tile backer in a shower area.  I think that is really bad advice.

      -Don

      1. timkline | Oct 27, 2006 08:04pm | #8

        And another thing... just in case we're tempted to simply follow the manufacturers guidelines (which is generally a good idea), it should be noted that Georgia-Pacific is still suggesting greenboard as a tile backer in a shower area.  I think that is really bad advice.

         

        He was going to use drywall and then tile backer (with a vapor barrier between, presumably).  It's an extra step, but should work just fine.

        You contradict yourself here.

        Tile and cement backer are not necessarily always waterproof.   A grout joint failure could lead to a long term leak that would cause the failure of the drywall.

        If the drywall fails and collapses, a void will form behind the backerboard which can lead to failure of the tile job.

        If the drywall was installed, it will take less than an hour to rip out.

        Rip it out.

         carpenter in transition

        1. DonCanDo | Oct 28, 2006 01:20am | #10

          You're right.  For all practical purposes, I did contradict myself.  I agree with your suggestion.  The drywall is not necessary and could be a problem if the vapor barrier isn't done with meticulous care.  And even then, any screws holding the tile backer to the studs would penetrate the vapor barrier anyway.

          -Don

      2. IdahoDon | Oct 27, 2006 09:56pm | #9

        GP isn't necessarily saying greenboard is good for tile backing.  They're saying the Denshield is better than greenboard.  

        http://www.gp.com/build/product.aspx?pname=DensShield%c2%ae+Tile+Backer&pid=4684&hierarchy=pc

        From their site:

        "International Residential Code (IRC) changes made in 2006 approve its [Denshield]use as a tile backer in wet areas such as tubs and showers, where greenboard is no longer approved. " 

        Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.

        1. DonCanDo | Oct 28, 2006 01:24am | #11

          GP isn't necessarily saying greenboard is good for tile backing.  They're saying the Denshield is better than greenboard.

          Actually, they are saying just that.  This is also right from their website:

          ToughRock¯ Moisture-Guard¯ (Greenboard)Water-resistant gypsum core. Use as backing for ceramic, plastic or metal title in tub, bathroom or shower areas.

          But, they do go on to say:

          Not for continuous high-moisture or wet areas, such as sauna and steam room.G-P Gypsum recommends the use of paperless Dens Armor Plus interior panels for a higher level of protection in areas where moisture is a concern. Dens Armor Plus panels feature a moisture resistant core and glass mat facers. Dens Armor Plus also meets ASTM C630 and ASTM C1396.

          1. IdahoDon | Oct 28, 2006 04:24am | #12

            That's just plain wrong.  Greenboard is the most worthless crap. 

            Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.

      3. Geoffrey | Oct 28, 2006 11:02pm | #13

        Hi Don,

            Yes, I realize that, that's why I warned about the extra thickness or "lip" he will create with the addittion of the backer-board layer, will he then carry the backer all the way to the ceiling or will he stop at the top of the tile or carry the tile and backer all the way to the ceiling? either way he's creating more work than needed AND he will create some isssues with the shower fixtures since I assume they are already roughed-in for the 1/2" green board.

          Also, I don't like the idea of putting a vapor barrier in front of the green board, especially if there is already a VB behind the green board, as there should be in a standard installation, even if it's just a kraft faced insulation.

        Second, where is the pan in all this?, in front of the green board or behind it?

                                                                                               

                                                  

        1. cscafidi | Nov 07, 2006 10:17pm | #14

          Hi everyone. Thanks for all of your responses. Sorry, I've been away for a while. Anyhow, let me fill in some details that some of you have been asking. I have the paperless drywall installed on all shower walls and the ceiling. I have been told that this stuff is better than greenboard but not as good as the cement board. In hindsight, I wish I had just used the cement board, but again the home depot crew recommended the stuff. Anyhow, I'm stuck with it now.My plan now is to put hardiboard on the 3 walls of the shower before tiling. Due to some inaccuracies in my framing, the situation with the shower pan is the following. The left edge of the pan sits flush against the drywall. There's about 1/8 inch of a gap between the back wall and the pan. It's at a slight angle with the left edge of the back wall being closer to the pan than the right edge. I had to cut away the drwyall on the right wall since I didn't have enough room to slide the pan into the opening. Thus, the drywall on this right wall comes down and stops flush with the top of the pan lip.I plan to use 1/2 inch hardiboard from the top of the shower pan up to the ceiling. On the left and back walls, I plan to first mount a layer of 1/4 inch hardiboard to the top lip of the pan. This will allow a second 1/4 inch board to be inserted over this layer which can extend down to 1/8 of an inch or so from the base of the pan. In this manner, I hope to avoid having the hardiboard bend out a bit near the bottom to overlap the pan lip.Before mounting the final hardiboard layer (just before thinset application), I plan to install a moisture barrier layer with roofing tar and tar paper. This will be applied over the first 1/4 inch layer of hardiboard.I know this sounds a bit complex, but will this address your concern about the moisture barrier?

          1. user-223434 | Nov 08, 2006 01:29am | #15

            I truly am dumfounded

            Do you plan to install a floating floor when the shower is completed  or do just plan to get lucky?

          2. cscafidi | Nov 08, 2006 01:36am | #16

            OK, now I am lost. What does the floor have to do with the walls? The shower pan is installed, sitting on some sand (for stability) ontop of the concrete floor. What do I need to worry about getting lucky with?

          3. FastEddie | Nov 08, 2006 01:44am | #17

            I think the shower pan would be better sitting on a mortar bed than a sand bed.  The sand will shift.  What did the mfgr suggest? 

            "When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it."  T. Roosevelt

          4. cscafidi | Nov 08, 2006 01:53am | #18

            I didn't consult the manufacturer (for better or worse). This was suggested to me by some of my friends who are knowledgeable in these things. Either way, I'm pretty much stuck with that too. Do you see any other pitfalls in my plans for the walls?

          5. Geoffrey | Nov 09, 2006 12:19am | #19

            With all due respect cscafidi, you may want to ask all these questions PRIOR to installing anything next time, unfortunatly for you, your so-called "knowledgeable" friends aren't and you seem to have a can of worms that may just become a huge ogre. I wish you luck,

                                                Geoff

          6. cscafidi | Nov 09, 2006 06:12pm | #20

            Hi Geoffrey, thanks for your input, but do you think you could add more constructive comments? I understand that my approach may be unorthodox at best, and a bit inefficient. However, if I really am, in your opinion, in a "can of worms," what apsects do you find most troubling? Where am I going to have the most trouble? I am just about to put up the moisture barrier and, so far, it has been going fairly smoothly. I have already talked to tile shops and found that tiles, to cover the 1/2 inch gap created by the hardiboard off the main wall, are readily available. My only personal concern is how the 1/2 inch hardiboard on either side will affect mounting the shower door, but from what I can tell so far, these doors are built with play that will allow this.

          7. Geoffrey | Nov 09, 2006 11:55pm | #21

            Hey cscafidi,                 < so far, it has been going fairly smoothly.>

            It may be going smoothly but that doesn't mean it's being done correctly, You mention the shower doors may or may not fit, you should check before you go ahead with the addition of the backer to the walls. It was suggested earlier that you tear out the drywall and start fresh, that was the best advice you could have received, then you could have addressed the shower door issue, the potential shower valve issue that you have not responded to, and the mis-fitting shower pan.

            I don't mind helping, but if you are insistent on doing it as you want, contrary to expert advice given here ( not by myself, but the others here) you are opening a can of worms. Your description of the pan install AFTER the board, is indicative of a potential leaking problem, as well as the fact the pan could shift around on the floor, since you used sand to bed it instaed of a more appropriate  material, such as plaster (my preference) or thinset or mortar.The pan may develop hairline cracks around the drain due to it flexing over time. The tile "cap" that you say is readily available may or may not be sized appropriately to solve your thichness issue, but why not listen to the advice( i.e. rip out the drywall and start fresh) instead of spending your time trying to "fix" the errors. I wish you luck with your project.

                                              Geoff

          8. cscafidi | Nov 10, 2006 12:29am | #22

            Hi Geoffrey. First I'd like to apologize to you and anyone else in this forum if I've given the impression of being stubborn in my shower approach here. I've been finishing my basement for 2 years now and am always learning every step of the way. I'm no expert by far, and I welcome any advice. My only hesitation to ripping out the moisture resistant drywall which is already installed and starting over is just the sheer time and effort involved. To justify this rework, I need to be sure that I have a serious problem that I can't easily fix another way. So, from what I've heard so far, my potential problems are:1. coverings for shower fixtures. I apologize that I forgot to respond to this earlier. This is a good point that I will go and look into tonight to see if it is an issue.2. shower door not fitting. I've enquired about this to several sources with no red flags yet. But I think you're right. Before I proceed, I will purchase the door first and make sure it can handle the gap.3. shower pan. I feel comfortable about the pan as is. The walls do not allow any rotation and I feel that the sand bed is supporting the pan well. I checked with the builder who built our home and found that they did the same thing with our master bath shower 17 years ago. I know there are better ways, but I don't feel that the risk is large enough alone to warrant a restart.4. tiles. Checked with a few tiling stores, and it should be easy to cover the gap.5. moisture getting behind the pan. This one I would appreciate more discussion on. The backerboard will come down and overlap the lip of the pan, such that the lip is behind the backerboard. The backerboard will also extend all the way up to the ceiling. With this, and the fact that I will first put up a moisture barrier behind the backer board with tar and tarpaper to cover any seams/gaps, I was thinking that this would be more than enough. No?

          9. MikeHennessy | Nov 10, 2006 04:03pm | #23

            OK. We can all sympathize with trying to find a way around the dreaded "re-do". We all hate them. We've all tried to find a way to work around a problem (of our own creation -- ouch!) to avoid them. The bottom line is almost always that it's way easier in the long run to tear out the problem and do it over -- correctly this time. How long will it take you to tear out the drywall, two hours? And to pull out the pan and replace the sand (I've never heard of dry sand as a base for a shower pan) with plaster or mortar, a half-day maybe? You said you have spent two years doing this project -- do you want to end up with a disaster after investing two years, or make it two years and a month or two and end up with a decent, properly constructed shower that'll have to be torn out in a year due to the water damage caused by all the leaks? You won't find much advice on this site about how to do the job wrong -- which is what you seem to be inclined to do. You will find lots of folks willing to give you great advice on how to do it right. Suck it up. Do it over. Do it right. Count it as a learning experience. After you tear out the "oops", go here and get some great info on how to do it right: www. johnbridge.com

            Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA

             

          10. Geoffrey | Nov 11, 2006 06:55am | #24

            Mike, I was trying to post a similar message last night but my *%#*&# computer wouldn't co-operate, now I'm glad it didn't, you put it very eloquently, Thank You!

                                                                                                                           Geoff

          11. MGMaxwell | Nov 11, 2006 03:34pm | #25

            Thanks for that reply. I followed this thread and you have said it very well...i.e.  "do it right the first time." It's so much easier now. The OP has spent a long time with his project and probably wants to wrap up, but from my experience with long term projects and the urge to "get on with it" when you sit back later and reflect, you'll wish you had done it correctly the first time.

            The tear out is not that bad. It will only get harder and more expensive later.

          12. woodguy99 | Nov 12, 2006 05:41pm | #26

            I think we should all get ready for a big "I told you so" in a few months or at most a couple of years when the OP's workarounds fail.  Setting a base in sand?  Never heard of that one.  I bet the builder used sand mix, not pure sand. 

  5. allyd | Oct 27, 2006 04:36pm | #6

    Zinsser Mildew Proof Bathroom paint is great stuff.  Used it (5 yrs. ago) in the bathroom that gets the most shower traffic--3-6 showers a day (two teenagers).  8 ft. ceiling, no tile above shower, ventilation could be better.  High humidity summers & we run the AC only when we absolutely have to.  Noting that you're planning a basement shower, I'd rate Zinsser as a 'must'.

     

    I'd steer away from tile on the ceilings because IF mold/ mildew develops, spraying Chlorox and scrubbing grout lines overhead is not a fun job.  Alternatives--stainless steel, fiberglass panel, Formica... Nose around the exterior 'wood replacements' millwork section for inspiration.  I don't know anything about this stuff, but this will give you a general idea of what I'm talking about:

     

    http://www.azek.com/beadboard.asp

  6. DanH | Oct 27, 2006 05:21pm | #7

    Shouldn't be a problem. Do use a fungus-resistant paint, however, or mix a fungicide into the paint.

    Seven blunders of the world that lead to violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics without principle. --Mahatma Gandhi

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