I’m in the process of installing a kitchen island and I could use some help. We recently had all new countertops installed and we bought an extra slab of the material to use for the island which I still had to build. The slab is 3’x4′, 1″ thick, of Silestone granite.
Well now I have the base built, which is 2’x4′ – there will be a 1′ overhang for some barstools (see the sketch attached) and I have two questions:
1) With a 1′ overhang, do I need any supports or brackets under the overhang to prevent it from snapping off if my uncle from Minnesota rests his big ol’ beefy arms on it? The installer said it could handle 10″-12″ of overhang, but I would love a second opinion.
2) I think this question is more critical. Assuming I have enough support under the overhang, how should I fasten the slab to the cabinet? The installers just used clear caulking around the edges to keep the regular countertop from moving. But I’m worried that this won’t work with the leverage that will be coming from the overhang.
thanks,
Joe
Replies
believe your installer.... chances of your framing coming off the floor are better than the caulk coming loose...
not slam'n you but you have an expert that you must have trusted, he installed your stuff... you ask his opinion and advice... and you don't trust that?
p
I do believe him that the slab wouldn't snap and that was the only thing that I asked him about. I never asked him if the caulking would hold the countertop on given the large overhang. I'm more worried about the top flipping up, but I think the brackets should do the job.
I think PL premium should keep that countertop from ever moving again.
I'm not as much of an expert about countertops as your countertop guy probably is. . . but I think that it would look better with some nice little angle brackets underneath that thing. and it couldn't hurt. here's some that i just built for my wood bar. Just some scraps from the wood I used to make the bar and some baltic birch plywood.
zak
Zak,What are the dimensions for the bracket and for the overhang on the countertop?thanks for the input,Joe
The brackets are about 7" x 7". The main support from the bar is actually back from the posts, so it overhangs about 11".
zak
Hey Zak
Cool looking stools! did you make them? Any regrets or things you would do diffrent next time? Any chance of a better pic of them?
thanks
Is this any better?
I made them this spring, some friends were having a bar stool competition for there house. I didn't quite win, but that's ok- I wanted to keep them anyway. Their house is a log cabin, so the look of these things wasn't quite right.
I made the steel parts out of the pallets lawn tractors are shipped on, gas welded together. The wood is mostly western maple, with laminated front curves. It's all pegged together with purpleheart.
They're very comfortable- I tested the slat thickness until I got just enough flex to feel right. They're solid stools, and lighter than most.
Let me know if you want more pictures.
zak
I am gonna try my hand at making a couple. Hope you don't mind that I want to steal your design. (I guess thats my way of asking permission) . Any extra pics you have from different angles would be great.
Thanks
bt
If you make a million selling those barstools, you owe me at least a six pack of microbrew. and also, I demand to see how yours look when you're through with them. I'll take a few pictures when i get a chance. Might be a day or two. I can't really think of anything I would do different, except that the first one I made had the possibility of being adjustable for the seat angle. When I built the second one, I just welded all the steel together, and it's just as good. A little more sturdy, actually.
zak
Here's a couple more pics of those stools.
zak
Hey, Thanks for the pics. Sorry to have hijacked the thread
While the installer is probably right about the top 'handling' the 10-12" of overhang He could of been thinking of the top not breaking vs. flipping up and smacking your uncle in the nose or mashing his toes. While silicon should bond it to the cabs I personally would install a couple 6-8" brackets.
I've dealt with my share of man made granite like that. In theory, yes, it should be able to take it. But I would sure like the insurance of the brackets. The thing I worry about really just comes from the instances where I've seen nice sturdy beefy slabs that shouldn't go anywhere just snap. I'm not saying at all that yours will, but your installer said 10-12", you're at 12, you're toeing the line.
When I put brackets like that on, they're wood, I drill pilots through the back of the cab to mark locations, and use short washer headed cabinet screws to hold the brackets on. At the top, just like your installer, a bead of silicone to keep it from moving side to side.
"A bore is a man who, when you ask him how he is, tells you." -Bert Taylor
JMadson
Just built an island myself. Granite top. 7' X 18". Weighs a ton. Was supported by nothing mare than silicone and 3 corbels (brackets that all have mentioned). Was pro installed ( I don't do granite) and no problem so far.
You can buy corbels from your local kitchen shop designing place. Mine were wrought iron metal. You could build your own. Definately add them for Unc.
Good Luck, Mark
From our fabricator anyway, the max overhang is 10" I would be a little concerned of pushing 12" on a top that is only 3' wide, that's leaving 1/3 the width and as a result 1/3 the weight un-supported.
I would also make very sure your island cabinets are securely fastened to the floor on all sides but especially the side opposite the overhang. Silestone weighs about 20 pounds a square foot, that puts your top at 240 pounds with 80 pounds not supported creating a hinge point for tipping.
as far as fastening, a bead of adhesive silicone on top of the cab box and ran around perimiter should be enough to hold it in place. If you have a local glass shop they should be willing to supply you with a tube of high quality stuff. I do not understand the differences between types of silicone though.
In order to make the installation stronger, we cut blocks 3/4 x 3/4 x about 3-4" and bondo them in place under the tops... butter two sides of the block up with bondo and stick it to the cab and top, it will hold it.
I would not chance using PL or other types of construction adheasive for this, Silestone and the fabricator we use specifically call out of silicone, I have to believe if construction adheasive would work they would have said as much.
Based on everyone's input, I'm pretty sure I'm going to add a couple of brackets at each end - probably 6"-7" brackets. This would essentially cut the overhang to just 6", which doesn't scare me very much.
As far as fastening this down, I already have plans to bolt this down as tight as I can get it. It should be Ok.
thanks for the input,Joe
Just yesterday I encountered the same issue. It's a piece of 70" granite 18" wide.
It's the bar sid of an island that has the same piece as a counter on a 2 x 4 base. I bought three angle brackets found in the shelf section of the po'. These are temp 'til I find a more elegant solution to please the better 3/4. They are rated to hold 1/2 ton in use as a pair. I installed 3. You could also cover them with wood later. I plan on milling some cherry flooring (I have left over from the kit-din area and make ) with a bead and end up with a wainscotted back panel, which will cover the bulk of the brackets. They are triangular not the cheap stamped (L-shape I wouldn't trust those).
Hope this helps.
PT
"I do not understand the differences between types of silicone though"
Hope this doesn't get too technical ....
"the worse it smells ... the better it works"!
something about the really strong vinegar smell with the "better" silicones makes them stick gooder ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Well that's still more then I knew lol
The stuff the fabricator spec'd was some GE industrial stuff, not available locally and none of my suppliers could get their hands on it (or possibly looked hard enough)
so called the fabricator and asked if I could use plain old silicone, they said they didn't recommend it, call your local glass shop and see what they have
Got a tube read the back of it to the fabricator, and he said sounds like the same as the GE industrial stuff...
my quest for knowledge on the finer points of silicone was cut short at that point
just cut the tip ...
if it makes your eyes burn ... it's plenty good.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
shouldn't you be sleeping
"de-lettered" the van ...
after 6 hrs of block sanding a full size van in a haze of over cleaner ...
took a nap. Woke up sick as a dog ...
might be a bit of chemical poisoning? Oven cleaner .... ?
anyways ... 3 beers into the real world ... think I am ready for that sleep stuff. Have a 4 year old out cold on the couch ... he'll be good asleep till 10 at the latest ... 3 more sips of this last Corsendonk and I better join him.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
"de-lettered" the van ...
Why? If you don't mind.--------------------------
It's only satisfying if you eat it.
getting steady sub work for a K and B place that doesn't like to advertise they do use the occasional sub. My lettering was pretty "high visability" ...
had the option to use one of their plain vans ... but transfering tools all the time would have been a pain in a a$$.
I was never crazy with my lettering to begin with. Almost removed it the first day I saw it ... 3 years ago. Guy took some artistic license and it turned out to be 3x's the sizes I wanted ...
I'm planning on a new(er) van come spring ... so it'd have to come off to sell by them anyways ... so I used the timing to my advantage.
with the next one ... I'll rethink the lettering idea.
If I do go that route ... the size/design of the vinyl overlay ... definitely NOT hand painted! ... will be sized so I can get a sheet of white mag sign material and cover it up if need be.
If the sub work flows as much as the potential ... I'll just go naked.
Or ... get some mag signs made up.
my signs got noticed ... don't think I ever got a direct call from them though. I used Mike S's idea of "stay visable" ... smaller/neater signage would do that trick too.
I know of a guy closer to out your way that does real nice overlay graphics if U ever need a contact. He can take a photo and wrap your whole truck with it!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
He can take a photo and wrap your whole truck with it!
The only pictures worth it, that I can think of, would put me in jail the first 2 minutes.
I know what you mean about sub work. I've got some pretty plain magnets, but I don't have them on much.--------------------------
It's only satisfying if you eat it.
Thanks to all for the input. Here's some photos of my results. I still have to finish the two drawers in the front. I have the fronts made and painted, I just haven't finished the actual drawer yet. The DW also wants a dark glaze over the top and then wiped off to add to the antique look.
thanks again,Joe
I'd say use supports for overhang if you were using granite, but Silestone may not need it. Silestone is harder than natural granite and it's thicker than 1".
I have Silestone installed in my bath, they seem to have a special silicon for Silestone. If you hate to use supports and afraid of silicon can not hold the top. The only way I can think of is install the braces to screw top with cabinets like the way undermount basins are intalled.
J Madison,
I saw an article somewhere ( sorry can't remember where) the counter fabricator was faced with a similar problem. He routed out two channels side by side and from front to back in the substrate that covered most of the width and length of the top, leaving about a 3 inch margin between the channels and all the edges, about 3/8" deep. He then screwed 3/8" steel plates into the channels and applied the finish surface ( it was either granite or corian) over it.
Hope this helps,
D
JMadson:
I am an Authorized Zodiaq Installer. Zodiaq is the same stuff as Silestone, both patented Breton process, but by DuPont.
The DuPont Zodiaq Fabrication and Installation Manual allows a maximum 14" overhang without additional support. I would follow this specification without hesitation, as I'm averaging one warranty call every decade. This is one more advantage that engineered stone has over granite.
Silicone, schmilicone. Buy some five-buck-a-tube clear stuff and apply it in dime-sized dabs every 12" or so. Forget about it.
I'm hooking up the countertop tomorrow. Any recomendations on silicone brands?
I know you said any kind, but I don't want to buy something that's completely off-base.
thanks,Joe
First fasten the cabinet to the subfloor
Second fasten 3/4" plywood to cabinettop
Into the 3/4" plywood router 3/8" deep space to flush 3/8"steelplate(s); this will eliminate all visible brackets
Epoxy the steelplates and plywood to the underside of the slab; you could also use construction grade LePage Bulldog as adhesive
If you screw the plywood to the cabinet from the underside you can always take the whole thing off again
I've had a Corian counter installed for over 10 years, which includes an 11" overhang. The overhang has NO supporting brackets and/or corbels. Just as the information supplied to you, I was told the installation could support a 12" overhang.
If the add'l support is consistent with your design, go with it. However, if you'd rather have no visible support, I suspect the overhang will work without add'l support. Perhaps a guarantee from the fabricator is a middle ground.