Standing my second floor walls to the addition today, I noticed my neighbor to my rear and two doors down was having his house re-roofed. Tearing off the old and installing new Architectural fiberglass. Trouble is, the old was “fish scale” slate shingles. One of the prettiest roofs in the neighborhood. Roofers weren`t even bothering to save the shingles….tearin` them off and watching them drop to the ground.
The house itself is nothing spectacular…they slapped vinyl over the asbestos siding a few years back…..but the roof was something to behold.
I understand not everyone can afford maintanance of a slate roof….but to just trash it kills me. Many an evening I enjoyed the view of the craftsmanship and artistry of that roof from my rear porch….I`m gonna miss it.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
“DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE”
Replies
Man, I wish I lived closer.
If I couldn't salvage enough to use as intended, I'd salvage as many as I could, and use them for other things like paintings.
A good heart embiggins even the smallest person.
Quittin' Time
My wife has joined me in my madness. We recently picked up two windows worth of American Chestnut trim that was tossed with the old windows. Unforunately the beautiful thick apron stock was ripped to pieces by the savage that took them out. I bet there is lovely bland pine molding over the vinyl replacements now. The trim has joined some more pieces we have in the garage. I'll find a use for it one day.
...that's not a mistake, it's rustic
Chestnut was ripped off the walls and thrown away? Is nothing sacred anymore?!
One of my first remodeling projects was a 1910's era house with solid oak flooring and trim. I strip-ez'd the layers of paint off the trim in winter (bad mistake) and the interior was beautiful. The yard also had three levels of berry producing things - all berry trees, tons of berry bushes, and the grass was really wild strawberries. The bird life was amazing.
The house sold to a single female lawyer. Cut down all the berry trees and bushes, and painted the oak trim pink. No accounting for taste.
remodeler
A bud of mine had some solid oak slab cab doors (they were painted over) rather than refinish them he made some (guuulllpppp) popular doors pocket holed them together so he could use them for glass doors and trashed the oak..... I cant believe he did that..
Darkworks: No Guns No Butter squilla and the bling bling.
"...painted the oak trim "
AAhhhhhhh!!!!!!! Where's the humanity man! May as well burn the place down!
last summer my crew was hired to REPLACE about a quarter mile of VICTORIAN casings and base with RANCH.
good luck rg
There's a way to prevent that sort of 'criminal renovation'--but only at a personal, one-at-a-time level.
When you sell your house, you include a covenant as part of the deed of sale that the new owner and all subsequent owners must not (whatever--no vinyl siding; no painting the stained woodwork; no carpet glued to the hardwood floors, etc., etc.
In essence, you designate the building as a 'personal' historic building that can not be modified outside set limitations in the deed restriction. If it's carefully written (I hate to suggest it, but a lawyer might be a good idea) it's enforceable as a contractual obligation in almost any jurisdiction.
The downside of this is that you limit the number of potential buyers for the house to those people who agree with the way you think about houses. No real estate agent is going to accept this sort of thing happily, because it means he/she'll have to work a lot harder for that commission. (The agent may even lie and tell you it's not legal. Don't believe that unless you check with someone whose wallet is not linked to the statement.)
Remember, though--it's a civil contract; which means the neighbors can't call the cops if they see the new owner slapping chartreuse paint on the cedar shakes two years after you move out: they've got to call you, and you'll then have to sue for breach of covenant. What the remedies would be I don't know; if you caught the malfaiteur early enough, a court injunction might be issued; if it's after the fact, the classless creep might be ordered by the court to put it back the way it was no matter what the cost; alternatively he might be ordered to pay damages to anyone materially affected--which would include you, the current neighbors, and anyone who liked to drive by the house and admire it.
If you've got a neighborhood association, you could try to get a resolution passed that all members include a basic 'No Trash Renovation' clause when and if they sell their houses: but don't be surprised to find out people who you've considered friends for years think more of their wallets than of the 'friends' they will never see again if they move.
It's a rough one, no doubt about it.
If and when I sell my place, I intend to try to include a clause of this sort--but whether or not I succeed has a lot to do with why I'm selling it, and what urgency there might be to sell....
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
The previous owner shut down his over-zealous real estate agent to go with exclusive negotiations with me and the wife because it was clear to him we would maintain everything he loved about the place....that's not a mistake, it's rustic
Here is something that I think would be much more effective. Have some thing written up about the "mission" or "character" of the house and what these detail mean, why they are there and how hard they are to replace. They use a little judgement to who you sell to.
Absolutely now power in this, but it is the carrot rather than the stick. And I don't think that your stick will work at all.
While the C&R can be done, first it is a static contract and unlike historic rules can't be appealed. In the long run that work against what you are trying to do. It does not of the availability of materials, new materials and methods, needs of the new home owners, and budgets of the homeonwers.
Because of this it will either be completely ignored and/or needed repairs won't been done until it is too late.
And enforcing the contract will be expensive.
"If you've got a neighborhood association, you could try to get a resolution passed that all members include a basic 'No Trash Renovation' clause when and if they sell their houses: but don't be surprised to find out people who you've considered friends for years think more of their wallets than of the 'friends' they will never see again if they move."
I doubt that this is legal. A private organization can't put drastic limitations on what you can and can't do with YOUR PROPERTY after you have bought it.
There was one kind of slate (came from Pennsylvania, as I recall) that was inferior to most roofing slates and was pretty much in need of replacement after about 40 years, I think it was too pourous, or something. Darn, can't remember where I saw a slate tutorial, maybe it was in an old house magazine.
Anyway, my point is, that MAYBE that slate had passed its useful life and the owner could not afford to have it replaced with new slate.
Most likely the owner is an idiot who just wrecked something, but you never know. Too bad you never talked with that neighbor before this - it is amazing what people don't think about, especially since most people only plan to live in one house for a few years anyway and so care little for the long term.
Breaks my heart to see that (often) irreplacable, old stuff is replaced with (usually) lower quality, new stuff. And the old stuff was most likely installed by a person wielding the skills of an artisan that today few could hope to afford, and the replacer is probably not as well trained.
Depressingly,
Norm
There was one kind of slate (came from Pennsylvania, as I recall) that was inferior to most roofing slates and was pretty much in need of replacement after about 40 years, I think it was too pourous, or something. Darn, can't remember where I saw a slate tutorial, maybe it was in an old house magazine.
Old House Journal had an extensive article on slate roof sources maybe 10-15 years ago.
Another potential; problem woth slate roofs is if some yazoo puts roofing tar onm the terne metal flashings - the tar eats the flashings up.
Or some bozo walks.or puts direct weight on it .
Or hail storms._______________________
10 .... I have laid the foundation like an expert builder. Now others are building on it. But whoever is building on this foundation must be very careful.
11 For no one can lay any other foundation than the one we already have--Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 3:10-11
I doubt that this is legal. A private organization can't put drastic limitations on what you can and can't do with YOUR PROPERTY after you have bought it.
If only it were so. The latest "wrinkle" on HOA is to grant the HOA a lien to the entire subdivision. This gives the busybodies on the HOA authority to enforce their dicta against individual homeowners. Ok, in fairness, if you buy one of these properties, you have, in fact, created a co-dominion, so you won't ever "own" it entire.
I know this sounds outlandish, but there are some cases dragging through the appellate system where homeowners were foreclosed off their own properties by the HOA for noncompliance with HOA rules (even bigger email "stink" about it, too).
Now, if the average HOA actually cared about preserving things like slate roofs, or exquisite detail, etc., they would not be so bad. Nagging you for putting A3280 primer on instead of A3288, sadly, is their fortè. Or leaving your garage door open 12" for the cat. Or leaving your garbage can out too late.
Oops, that's almost back to the fine neighborhood thread, isn't it? Mea culpa.
HOAs or another way of doing this is local historic distric. At first, people choose to enter the distric and in some places they get tax benefits for doing so, but in some circumstances, other homes end up being "annexed" into the district.
Excellence is its own reward!
A few months ago I was working for a "celebrity" couple who bought a ranch style and wanted to convert it to Craftsman...
A little old gent would stop by once in a while to look in on the proceedings. The new owner called the guy a jerk and said he was being nosy and she was going to get a restraining order.
One day he stopped by while she was gone and we had a chat. Turns out that the gent and his wife had owned the house since day one, raised their kids, and were heartbroken to have to sell it. He told me how he and his kids planted some fig trees, and he'd asked the new owners for cuttings to start a tree at their new place. After he mentioned this to her, she promptly had them cut down and trashed. (talk about Gross Absence of Human Compassion!)
He was stopping by to see what they were doing to "his" house that he had loved so long. Those of you who might say it was none of his business are heartless bastiges.
Jen
Hey Jen--
If you should be so lucky as to get a callback for anything at your 'celebrity couple's new place, try to pop a piece of crown when she's not looking and slip a nice, big, old piece of 'celebrity quality' limburger cheese in the cavity before you nail it back up....
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
I should be so lucky...
Word is that they've broken up because of the stress caused by the remodeling (poor dears)
Jen
Gee, that's soooooooooooooo sad. Who got custody of the pet pit vipers?
Maybe, just maybe, they'll shred each other so badly the house'll go on auction--and the old gent could get it back...? Then we could have an on-site BT fest and de-renovate it for him.Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
"de-renovate it for him" hehehe...put back the blue shag carpeting over the hardwood floors and re-paint the limestone fireplace that the new owners had sandblasted? Atually, they did him a bit of a favor except for the fig trees....<G>
Jen
You gotta admit--blue shag is better than orange and black shag....
Ouch!
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Oh I do miss my grandparents orange and black shag. Brings back great memories.Tamara
Jen we want NAMES! Are they actors, musicans etc? Maybe I should ban them! Just kidding. Although you do have me wondering who they could be.Tamara
Dear Tamara,
Look for an e-mail.
Jen
Fw me too on that
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
That woman is a heartless bastidge.
What she did takes more than just a lack of compassion. That was active sadistic barbaric fiendishness. A good heart embiggins even the smallest person.
Quittin' Time
The last HO I worked for has a six doors left of a set that was damaged during the Blitz. original paint and hardware.
4 panel ( I think) with a non square stained and leaded light.
One still has the smoke damage and a tiny bit of bubbled paint from the bomb fire.
They were acquired by sale, the dealers tag is still on them.
Awesomely beautiful work.
SamTSleepless in Columbia. Diurnal rhythm? What songs did they do?
"active, sadistic, barbaric fiendishness"
Jeff, you have a way with words...
Jen
I bought my current home from the 86 year old original builder. He stops by a couple of times a year to see what I done to "his" house. I love his visits and have used his razor sharp recollection as a great resource in my re-modeling. I feel an obligation to him to let him in and enjoy his stories about the house. On his last visit he gave me a photo album his wife put together of original photos of the house before, during and after construction. I will now add photos of my work to this album. I consider it an heirloom and will someday pass it on the next "caretaker" of this property.
Experienced, but still dangerous!
I think it's a nationwide epidemic. Somedays at lunch I drive through an old neighborhood of classic homes just to admire the craftsmanship. On Monday I went by an 1920's craftsman and a "savage" was tossing some fine looking moulding into a large dumpster. I had to stop and check it out. Inside was an entire houseful of African mahogony base, door and window trim and 2 fireplace mantles! I gave the "hired savage" $20 and he stacked it outside the bin, I ran home, got the truck and made a nice score! Now it can gather dust in my garage until I can find a worthy project for it. It was being replaced with some real fine looking MDF painted a magnificent gloss white. How sad.
Please forgive my ignorance, but what maintenance does a slate roof require? I thought they were pretty much a roof for the lifetime of the building, which is why there are buildings several hundred years old with them. I'd never heard that there were drawbacks to a slate roof beyond the weight and engineering required, so please educate me? Thanks.
The slate itself will hold up for many years, although from time to time shingles will crack or wear and need replacing. Capping especially needs to have an eye kept on it. The fasteners and flashings sometimes dont hold up quite so well. While these are not major drawbacks with a fiberglass shingle, much more work and expertise is required where slate is involved. Also keep in mind that older buildings were often not vented properly and roof sheathing may suffer over time.
Many folks with money keep a roofer on speed dial and have him stop by once a year, often after a harsh season to stay on top of what is initially a small maintanance task before it becomes a large involved repair.J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Thanks, that all makes sense.
aimless,
slate lasting the life of the structure is more a myth than a fact.
In my town a lot of slate roofs were installed----but generally speaking of 2 different quality levels. The carriage trade got (and paid for) high quality slate,high quality installations,copper flashings etc.these roofs are largely still in good shape AND still owned by the affluent.
An even larger number of ,shall we say "factory worker housing",was built at roughly the same time .A lot of these houses were also quite attractive----but over all the quality of the materials was lower. Much thinner and softer slate,galvanized sheet metal,steel nails,no felt under the slate,shorter head laps and in general poorer workmanship.
both qualities of houses were built here during a boom---say primarily from 1900-1930. Virtually all of the poorer quality slate roofs lifespans had expired 20-30 years ago. and the remaining ones will not remain much longer.
It's always popular for us here to say" they should have saved that slate roof,it could have been repaired"------but we aren't the ones footing the bills are we?when I am called in to look at these roofs Often times i would LIKE to save them-----but it is rarely economically feasible to do so. finding slate roofs with slates so far gone I can literally poke my fingers through the soft slate is not uncommon at all.Extensive repairs to a soft slate roof will often cost several times what tearing it off and replacing it with shingles will cost----and simply put ------homeowners would rather spend the money on a better kitchen than a slate roof.
BTW, how many of us put our money where our mouth is in similar instances. do we buy our meat from the corner butcher----or the shrink wrapped crap from the supermarket. do we buy fresh baked bread every day from a proper bakery---or that tasteless supermarket crud.Are our clothes made by hand by skilled tailors with materials that last a generation----or are they wallmart crud?
It's always easy to spend other peoples money----and second guess what they should have done. I like to do it myself!
Shazlett,
Thanks for the education. Not having ever been in the price range for slate, I never researched it, but just went with 'popular wisdom', which turns out to be not so wise. I had a 'lifetime roof' on my house of handsplit cedar shakes (not shingles) that had to be replaced after 30 years, so I realize that these stories people tell aren't always true.
Amy
Amy,
The degradation of your roof probably wasn't time so much as improper installation. A shake roof will last a very long time if installed properly. Simply put, the deck needs to be slats, no paper and a good ventilation system. I feel ridge venting systems should only be used with vaulted ceilings. Mechanical ventilation keeps the house cooler in the summer and dry throughout the year. With air circulation on both sides of the wood shakes the roof will last a long time.
Scott
Scott,
Thanks for the info, although your comment about no paper confused me. My roof had skip sheathing with paper woven in on the house and no paper on the garage. The house was in fair shape with a couple of minor leaks and the garage was a regular rain forest. We decided that the roofs needed to match and the fire hazard was too great to replace the shake just on the garage, so tore off the whole thing. There were other reasons besides water and fire for the decision - I was getting tired of the spring nesting season in my attic. I've never seen it written anywhere, but in between rains (most of the time here in the desert) the shakes shrink and pretty much every flying critter and many crawling ones have complete access to the attic. You can actually see daylight on a dry day even though the roof is still keeping out water. Weird.
Amy
Hi Amy,
The paper is there for when the roofing material starts to fail, like a storm blows some shingles off, or they crack. But with a wood material the paper wouldn't allow the under part of the shingle or shake to dry. That's why it's important not to use paper in that case. I've seen a lot of hacks put up roofs and usually can get away it with asphalt/fiberglass shingles, but wood roofing needs somebody that knows what they're doing. One of the biggest crimes I've seen is putting more than 2 nails in a shingle. That middle nail is where it's going to crack, probably over the underlying seem. And you're right, where it's dry a lot, it seems like a bad choice for roofing of siding,I guess, unless it was treated. What type of material did you replace it with ? I think you said earlier but I forgot. I think the ultimate material would be asbestos tiles. They would last a long time, fire proof, cheap, and probably could be made to look quite nice. Probably illegal to protect people that have roofing material licking fetishes.
Scott
"Probably illegal to protect people that have roofing material licking fetishes."
Tee, hee, hee - I like that. There are a few asbestos roofs around here, and they seem to be holding up quite well. We chose arch. composition shingle, because a) it has more fire resistance than wood and we live in a wildfire state, b) it didn't require beefing up the roof any as cement would have c) it is flexible and there are japanese 'flares' on the roof requiring either flexible material or someone who really knows what they are doing with rigid shingles (none of the roofers I talked to), and d) it was in the price range of people who had just maxed out purchasing a house. Someday in 30 or so years (it's a 40 yr shingle) I may replace it with an alternative that looks more like a shake, hopefully by then they will have something as lightweight as shakes that looks good.
Stephen, wonderful and apropos comments. I especially like, "it's always easy to spend other people's money", something that, in the end, all politicians succumb to, from the board member of the condo association to the president of the US.
"slate itself will hold up for many years, although from time to time shingles will crack or wear and need replacing."
Jay,
More a question than a statement, but I have heard that out in your part of the country, there were at least two different types of slate used. The smaller (starter) houses (lots of them in Yonkers) used the cheaper, and it didn't last much more than 50 to 75 years. The pricier stuff, (used on homes in more affluent areas) holds up far longer. I think one was called Italian Slate.
Jon
Here in my neighborhood in Detroit I have seen some pretty shortsighted rehabilitations of historic homes. I recently was in the running to win a 1885 Victorian cottage that was being auctioned. It had beautiful scalloped cedar shingle siding on the second story, salvagable plaster, 11 inch oak baseboards with coner blocks, oak 5 panel doors with original hardwar and a repairable mahogany inlaid floor in the entry. I lost the sealed auction by a couple thousand bucks (11k to 17k). It was a steal at twice that. The moldings had one coat of thin paint that would have been easily stripped and returned to original glory. When I saw work starting at the site I figured I would introduce myself to the new neighbor and see if I could lend any help. Turns out, the kid who won the place has no clue what he really won. He and his wrecking crew were in there popping and destroying the trim as they gutted the place. They proceded to remove all the plaster, trim, cedar shingles, and even tossed some of the doors! Considering they destroyed the trim removing it I was able to only salvage a couple of 8 foot lengths. They sit in my basement with the address written on them for the future owner who wants the original profiles to restore the home (which is what I could have done in about 6 months of weekends). They were also shovelling the inlaid floor from the entry right into the dumpster. What kills me is these guys are spending twice as much money and about the same ammount of time to convert this beauty into a mere house. They might as well of built new as far as they have taken this thing back. The worst is they will now go and install $5 a foot Home Depot baseboards that are maybe 4 inches when they could easily source out exact reproductions for around the same price plus the cost of the knives.
As for the slate? One neighbor had a leaky and failing slate roof on their 1895 2.5 story home. What the roofer did was remove each side of the hip roof and dormers, repaired the valleys, flashing, and any rotted sheathing. They then proceded to rehang the slate using modern fasteners. Turns out many roofs of the homes in my neighborhood were installed with iron nails. As time goes on the nails corrode to nothing and the tiles begin slide off the roof. The tile is typically fine. Another neighbor had the same problem but he chose to replace the slate with some asphalt "replica".
Doesn't it just kill ya :( It's like murder. I guess its just up to us to try and keep the craftsmanship going. I recently hooked up with a new millwork shop. :) what a breath of fresh air. I can just hang out in that shop for days smellin raw stock. I had a bunch of cherry run off for me. We've got to keep sellin the craftsmanship, make people aware how nice stuff can look when its done right, with the right stuff.
Men do not quit playing because they grow old; they grow old because they quit playing! Holmes Sr. Oliver Wendell
Well, I just tore off three squares of multi-colored concrete tile of a kind that was popular here in the 1920's, and not made any more. I carefully carried it all down two stories and stored it under the back stairs. Now I'm looking for anybody who wants it to repair other old tile roofs.
-- J.S.
Where are you located ? A good heart embiggins even the smallest person.
Quittin' Time
> Where are you located ?
In Los Angeles, CA -- Just south of Melrose between Gower and Van Ness.
-- J.S.
Heh
Way too far for a scrounge trip.
: ) A good heart embiggins even the smallest person.
Quittin' Time
Here in Philly, we have loads of brick homes. A couple of times a year I'll see someone installing VINYL SIDING over the brick. Don't know why or who convinced the owners to do such a thing.
Also, many new owner's want to make their older homes look like the suburban homes. First thing they do is cut down ALL the trees and shrubs. Then they put in smaller "spiral cut" accent bushes and weeping some-a-ma-jigs, so their homes are just like the fancy new homes out on the former cornfields.
yuck!
C.