We’ve taken the steps to eliminate all full time employees. I’m officially winding down my carpentry contracting business after about 30 years in the business.
Success is measured in many ways, but I wouldn’t say that I ran a successful residential contracting “business”. I’ve survived, but I really can’t call it a “business”. It’s really nothing more than several dangerous low paying jobs all wrapped up in one mediocre compensation package when you consider all the skills and capital required.
I have always loved standing up houses, but the business has never really been “good”. I could emulate the “big” boys that are making some decent money in the rough residential field, but I don’t like buying sawzall blades by the gross and asking my “employees” to live below the poverty level.
It has taken me a long time to face up to the stark reality and admit that I can’t get the job done…I’m there now…..
Of course I could always change my mind, learn spanish and start paying cash to illegals……
blue
Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I’m a hackmeister…they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Replies
So what next?
Jon Blakemore
Jon, we're heading into the retail end of the housing market. Already we're in the process of standing up a couple of specs and I'm looking for financing on a lakefront spec on some property I have an option on.
The most significant turn of events is the decision itself. At this time last year, we were convinced that we could transition into the retail end of the housefield and also keep a residential framing crew alive as a seperate business. We expended a lot of energy last season in a final attempt to keep it afloat and create a business model that was sustainable. After suffering through the worst year I've ever had, and actually going out there and FRAMING myself (I've got proof.....) I've finally decided that the only way that the business will work is to lower costs, which would mean that I cant pay fair wages.
We could take our framing skills and market them to the builders doing the high end 10,000 sf homes (or larger). The elaborate homes would most likely pay enough to stay profitable, but it would take all of our energy and time and we're not willing to invest it in a trade that doesn't have a potential to deliver a true profitable "business" model. In the end, we'd just be glorified laborers tied to the job with no way to replace ourselves.
So...what next? Anything except a skilled trade!
lol.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
a true profitable "business" model
Definition please?
Are the specs out west you want to do? Where is it you are going ?
I know a man which is DWs boss that has a business model he trys to follow too. Thats his words also.
Tim Mooney
a true profitable "business" model
Definition please?
I'm basing my definition of a business using Robert's Kyosaki's explanation: "a true business is one that you can walk away from for a year, and when you come back it's more profitable than before".
I walked away a year and the business was in shambles. It won't work unless I'm out there 40 or 50 hours per week and I'm not going to be out on a jobsite 40 or 50 hours per week, then go and take care of the books and selling!
If I have to work that hard, I'll work in a business that pays well.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
blue.. i came to the same conclusion in the early '90's... i could not compete dollarwise or in terms of efficiency in new home constrcution..
new homes have become commodities.. and commodity markets are ruled by lowest cost...
so.. instead of competing with wal-mart..
we went back to our core training.. repairs and remodeling
i'm assuming you can compete in the spec market.. will it be in-fill or will you be cooperating with big developers in their subdivisions ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
blue.. i came to the same conclusion in the early '90's... i could not compete dollarwise or in terms of efficiency in new home constrcution..
Hehehe, in the early 90's I was goofing off...I was working half days as a framer, then spending the afternoons on the Soccer fields with my two kids. I spent most of the 90's as a high school soccer coach and I'm thankful that my trade allowed me the freedom to do that.
Mike, you were smart to re-position yourself, especially since you enjoy the market you deal in. The 90's were actually still okay for framing contractors and since I enjoyed that trade, I chose to stay.
new homes have become commodities.. and commodity markets are ruled by lowest cost...
To a degree yes, but that is the market that I had an edge in...most of the other crews in the early 90's were handpounding and their hours required them to bid all jobs at about 125% of our hours. I was always able to get my price and make a solid profit. I only needed to do about 6 houses per year and I remember thinking that when I hit 50, my kids would be gone and I'd only need to frame 3 to live quite well.
I now need to frame at least 12 to live poorly!
so.. instead of competing with wal-mart..
we went back to our core training.. repairs and remodeling
Hehehe...I'd rather be a cashier at walmart!
i'm assuming you can compete in the spec market.. will it be in-fill or will you be cooperating with big developers in their subdivisions
Yes and yes. This area is a huge spec market success story. If you can get it standing, it will sell. We could insist on only doing contract jobs, but we don't want to hold anyone's hand. Currently we're buying a lot in that sub where we just finished those houses that I posted on the table boogerin threads. Were starting with a "empty nester" ranch. They're selling in that sub for 338k for about 1750 sf. Projected costs using that builders numbers (he's got them loaded with features) is 170k plus the 110 lot. Since it's a premium lot, the selling prices on those lots will push the retail price to 348k. Were shooting for a 68k split. We'll do the framing only as our capital investment.
Thats our first project and we're aggressively pursuing some new lots that just hit the market in the north county that is our target market.
Essentially we are going to focus on being a country builder. There's less competition out there and it's the perfect autoworker retiree type community. There are large numbers of baby boomers reaching retirement age...blue collar types and we've had some nice country ranches drawn up for them.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
"Essentially we are going to focus on being a country builder. There's less competition out there and it's the perfect autoworker retiree type community."
Im sitting around thinking about the same things. Your situation has some money involved in it . Our area has a need for recreational property listings and theres no one filling the niche. Building specs is a dog eat dog walmart competing story. Im too old to compete in the slam bam getter done world and not healthy enough. Im going to have to make more money per slower hour or make a lick with out the presence of competition . As Mike told me , hes awaiting another chapter which I thought cool cause now I gotta make one . <G>
I feel kinda like you in that Im not gonna pound it out over age like Muhamid Ali and discredit myself thinking about the days I could do it . Sounds like prison inside myself to me. So, I aint goin there .
Ive started working rentals again for now , Started today by gosh.
Tim Mooney
Tim good for you...in the hunt again.
Have you ever advertised to buy houses? Instead of looking for house, have the motivated sellers contact you?
That will be my approach. I'm not looking for the houses as much as I'm looking for the motivation and situation. I got wind of another today just by word of mouth....
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
"Have you ever advertised to buy houses? Instead of looking for house, have the motivated sellers contact you?"
Ive seen the ads before , Ive read the books and woke up at three in the morning with the tv on and the guy talking about making a million and doing that, But I have never done it .
Everyone in town seems to know me . When I do somthing , folks are watching . Yea , it does matter to me . I need to know more about the honest results of doing it. Most ads say they pay cash and they dont . I wont be misleading.
Tim Mooney
Most ads say they pay cash and they dont . I wont be misleading.
Tim, you're incorrectly implying that the ads are misleading...they aren't.
I think you and I pretty much agree that you need to buy wholesale at 60 to 70% if you want to stay in the real estate investment business. The guys with the ads know that too. It is a business and one of the responsibility that business' have is to stay profitable, stay in business and carry out the promises that they make to each client every day. The real estate investment business is no different. If you start bailing out upside down property owners and try to stay afloat using a low margin of say, 10%, it won't be long till your out of business....especially if you are using it for your own personal cash flow...which is what most business owners own business' for.
So.....when they say they will pay cash, they are not lying. They WILL pay cash....60% of FMV!
If the sellers can't/don't want to sell at 60% of FMV, then the cash offer MUST be taken off the table and the only thing that can maket the deal more valuable is terms.
This program is not misleading but it is misunderstood. You yourself have been buying houses paying all cash. It's not your cash, but it still is cash borrowed from the bank. The owner is getting all cash from you...he doesn't care how you arranged your affairs.....only that you got him cash!
I don't have 60k in liquid cash funds lying around, but that won't stop me from offering 60k cash to every house I find that has a FMV of 100k. At this time I would be comfortable promising the cash in 3 days even though I'd have to scramble to keep my promise...but I know I could deliver. I'm fairly certain that I could assign that contract in less than one day to any number of real estate investors that I have networked with. The least I'd make is 5k, leaving them 35K on the table.
Do you know anyone that would take your contract off your hands to make 35K on a deal like that.
I'm 99% positive that I could fund that deal in one call.....
I'll soon be running the ads, I started them a couple of years back and got some good responses, but I didn't know how to handle them. I'm fully ready now.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
"I'll soon be running the ads, I started them a couple of years back and got some good responses, but I didn't know how to handle them. I'm fully ready now."
I remember that . You were tellin us all about it . You were doin that and workin too.
So what happened when you did that ? How much response did you get and why do you feel you werent ready to handle it ? You were on a high over it back then, so it wasnt lack of motivation.
Tim Mooney
Tim, I was in fact beginning to work that aspect of the business. I was up in a rural county and knew that I was moving and therefore didn't fully want to get involved in any buy and hold property. I also thought that I was moving out of state, and that was a huge influence on me to divest, rather that to invest in more real estate holdings.
When you understand that background, you will understand that I lacked the true inner motivation to actually get the job done. So, in the meantime, I began a study to prepare to launch myself fully into the business when I landed in Florida.
The ironic thing is that I have essentially wasted a lot of time waiting to make the move and I would have been much better off continuing in the real world of DOING THE BUSINESS instead of studying the business.
To my credit I did finish the resort property and it has provided me with a nice equity position that I can now put to work.
When I was fielding calls from motivated sellers, I didn't fully understand how to capitalize on the situation. I've only recently found that gem in a couple of books written by Conti and Finkley. They have given me the final piece of the puzzle. They use a very simple 4 step approach to structuring every offer and I now know that I would have been able to effectively use it on many properties that I had a chance to control.
I've also learned how/why certain fully leveraged properties are valuable and where the value is. When I was advertising, I got quite a few responses with these type situations and I just didn't understand where the value was, so I wasn't motivated to pursue them.
Now I know and I'm currently re-positioning my time (I refuse to work 12 hour days) to make room for chasing pre-foreclosures, which is what advertising for motivated sellers is all about.
When I think about the amount of responses, I would guess that it was plenty enough for that area that I was working. That county paper covered a county that had 100,000 people and you really don't need many responses to call your ad campaign a success. The guys that are taking the business seriously are budgeting several thousand dollars per month on their newspaper ad campaign...but the only reason that they are doing it is because it works! A small steady ad campaign in pennysaver type papers should deliver good results. I'm going to find out soon. Also, it is critical that everyone that I talk to knows that I buy houses, so it's imperative that I pass out cards to everyone saying exactly that.
It's surprising in an appreciating market, but foreclosures are at a record high and there is no reason to think that it will trend downward. For me, understanding how to work that market is going to be key to my involvement in the residential real estate market and I'm totally ready to get the business set up correctly right now. Probably, if I didn't spend so much time on this site goofing off, I'd be farther ahead....but I'm okay with taking life in the slow lane....and I did expend a fair amount of energy making sure that I didn't miss something in the residential framing business last year...something that is/was truly dear to my heart. The effort that you saw in the table framing threads was actually my last attempt to see if I could create a new competitve position in the framing market. My conclusion that it is a great way for oldtimers like me to stay in the field well into their 60's, but it won't create the large profit margin needed to justify staying in that business.
Basically, you witnessed the final capitulation of a business gone sour and the final attempts to fix it. We held our board meeting, reviewed the results and decided to end the pain. Frank will concentrate on residential building..something that he's excited about and I will focus my energies on real estate investing. So, instead of spending money on rough frame marketing, employee perks, etc, we will refocus our efforts and capital in other ways.
I actually believe that I'll soar past Frank's efforts...but I also don't mind the diversication within the housing market....if the new construction fizzles due to market pressures, the foreclosure market will be booming. I don't want to get caught focusing all my efforts in the wrong market.....I'm basically hedging my bet.
blue
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
That was interresting .
Would you name the books please as I would like to order them?
IN the end you spoke of diversification. Kinda goes hand in hand with putting all eggs in one basket. I also believe you have to carry one torch. If you are diverse in effort it is a saftey net. You confused yet ?
For me to spend more time chasing foreclosures and such, I need to be able to work less I think as you mention. Advertizing would shorten the time of looking. Im just a little skeptical of what adverizing is getting me into ?????????? I normally keep my self away from the owners. I deal with lawyers , banks , REA, auctioneers, US marshals, sherriffs , etc. In other words I dont deal with riff raff normally. Advertizing would be a turn around. I check the legals out with out someone in my ear which helps. All my actions are nearly solo. Other than the ladies at the court house in records and such. I call it quiet business .
Tim Mooney
Tim, I've read these two books by conti. I'll be getting any remaining ones ASAP:
Making Big Money Investing in Real Estate: Without Tenants, Banks, or Rehab Projectsby Peter Conti, David Finkel
How to Create Multiple Streams of Income: Buying Homes in Nice Areas With Nothing Downby Peter Conti, David Finkel
IN the end you spoke of diversification. Kinda goes hand in hand with putting all eggs in one basket. I also believe you have to carry one torch. If you are diverse in effort it is a saftey net. You confused yet ?
Not at all. In a rather cryptic way, you are saying that you need to focus on your strengths, rather than always work on your weaknesses. The problem with focusing on your strengths is that it makes you vulnerable if your particular area of expertise is rendered useless. For instance, the guys that were expert video tape recorder repairmen are probably wishing they had diversified their repairmen abilities.
For me to spend more time chasing foreclosures and such, I need to be able to work less I think as you mention. Advertizing would shorten the time of looking. Im just a little skeptical of what adverizing is getting me into ?????????? I normally keep my self away from the owners. I deal with lawyers , banks , REA, auctioneers, US marshals, sherriffs , etc. In other words I dont deal with riff raff normally. Advertizing would be a turn around. I check the legals out with out someone in my ear which helps. All my actions are nearly solo. Other than the ladies at the court house in records and such. I call it quiet business .
Your method makes sense to me and it is certainly one of the ways that Conti and Finkel discuss. Each method of finding motivated sellers bears some merit. Each way has its pros and cons. The most important thing is that you recognize what you are seeking. You and I are seeking motivated sellers, even if you might not recognize it, while many others in the real estate investment business seek out properties. There is a fundamental difference to each approach and each party has to work the business in the way that makes sense for their goals and objectives.
I'm looking for motivated sellers and I don't care what the property is. Others are looking for specific property and they don't care what the motivation to sell is. Occasioinally they will back into a home run because the property that they found also has a motivated seller and the negotiations are extremely easy. For me, it's the reverse...when I find a motivated seller, the property might have a significant amount of equity, and therefore it will be a homerun...easy to sell and profit from. For the most part however, Im content to eek out singles and bunt hits.
Pardon the Baseball analogy....
As far as these books Tim, I'm confident that you'll be able to use the four step process of making your offers even if you never change your seaching strategy.
blue
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
around here ...
those "we buy old houses"
and "we buy ugly houses"
guys pay more like 10 to 20% market value.
That said ... those signs are still up .. and more up every day ...
so just like telemarketing ... "no one does it" ... but someone must be!
The companies around here focus on bad housing in the hood ...
I'm talking bad ... and far back in the hood ...
so that "may" not be your intended market.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Actually Jeff, those signs are stuck up all over town, all over the US because the real estate gurus are preaching it. Even though there may be 1000 people attending the real estate seminar and they all hear the encouragement to put these signs up, only a very small number of people actually do. That is the difference between the 2% who do and the 98% who think about it.
Guess which group is getting motivated sellers to call them....
The "I buy houses" signs work in the ghetto and also in the upscale suburban neighborhoods. I have two different investors advertising in my suburban neck of the woods. When you study the foreclosure demographics, you will quickly understand that "wealthy" and middle class people overextend themselves too, thus creating a different type of opportunity. Not all inverstors are willing to work the "junker" market that you are referring to. I'm not interested in that, but I know that there is some very serious money to be made...10k, 20k, and 30k or more for several hours work....but you have to first invest the time studying the market and be able to know when a deal is a deal.
If a newcomer in this business hasn't invested the time to gain knowldege, and he doesn't have much capital to work with, the lure of buying a 30k property for 10k can be the stepping stone to success. Fortunatly, I don't have to start there, but if that was my only option, I'd be trolling the Flint neighborhoods right now!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
I'm sure the ghetto deals do work.
I know of a coupla houses near where I grew up that would list for around $30K to $40K .... if they had a good hosing down and a fresh coat of paint maybe add $10K to either ....
the ones I know of were all bought at 10% ... cash.
my mechanic's shop is at the edge of the real hood .... he hears all the neighborhood dirt ... he's told me of a sales where the houses went for $3,000 and $4,000.
Most are parents and grandparents that had decent houses then got old and sick ...
the upkeep was let go ... lazy kids did nothing the mooched off them ...
then .. when the folks up and die ... the crack head kids sell the places happily for a coupla thousand cash.
Down side is the owners now own lotsa property in the ghetto ...
but hey ... not like slum lords don't make a killing?
With the way crack and herionis sneaking into my old home town .... maybe I should start keeping tabs on the losers I went to HS with ... the bottom part of the town is a lost cause ... the hill is still nice and will stay that way ... might be good pickings waiting for some of the "hill kids" die off then give them a call offering a silly low amount of cash for their old houses?
Sad ... but that's probably a good business plan!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
With the way crack and herionis sneaking into my old home town .... maybe I should start keeping tabs on the losers I went to HS with ... the bottom part of the town is a lost cause ... the hill is still nice and will stay that way ... might be good pickings waiting for some of the "hill kids" die off then give them a call offering a silly low amount of cash for their old houses?
Actually Jeff, there is a tremendous amount of money to be made in using those houses for cashflow. Your positive cashflow is good if you can buy the houses so cheap. If you can fix them up to meet basic HUD standards, they make great guaranteed money in the section 8 program.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
"If a newcomer in this business hasn't invested the time to gain knowldege, and he doesn't have much capital to work with, the lure of buying a 30k property for 10k can be the stepping stone to success. Fortunatly, I don't have to start there, but if that was my only option, I'd be trolling the Flint neighborhoods right now!"
Hey, wait just a minute . <G>
Lemme tell ya somthin; I talked to a lady today that bought a repo trailer park of 5 trailers in an area I wont even look at period. Yea , Im too good to go over there and work real estate. Well, get a closer look,
She got a 100 percent loan by offering 50 percent of the value and was accepted. She cleared after the first month , 1200 dollars. When she gets the 5th home rented the income per month will climb.
I wish I had it ! Infact , if I had 10 deals just like it , Id retire. I would hire a guy to work over there and maybe two!
The newspaper makes its money on change every day.
Walmart makes a small profit but has a big return over volume.
Tim Mooney
"Walmart makes a small profit but has a big return over volume. "
Yeah ... but walmart doesn't have to track their customers down for weeks on end after "rent day" ....
low end rentals get low end renters.
you know they're not worth the trouble.
and the "lifer's" know how to play the system better than those that wrote the rules books.
again .. I refer back to my buddies garage in the hood ...
man ... I get an education each and every time I stop by.
still remember the story of the lady complaining about "having to move" ....
she was living in a HUD housing project. Her monthly rent .... $15/month!
and ...
she was $900 behind on rent!
I don't even know how many times $15 divides into $900!
(60 ... months ... behind. 5 years!!!)
so she's there complaining she's got to move ... but it ain't so bad ... as they didn't repaint this year .. and her carpet is "two years old" ...
so she'll be moved into a nice new unit across the street.
she agreed to pay half of what she owed .... so her buy out was $450 ...
and since the new place is painted and has new carpet ... her rent was going up to $30 ... which she'll "think about paying" ... as long as it's a nice building.
I'm thinking yer better off without them trailers!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
you know they're not worth the trouble.
Well, I dont have anything like that but that means Im not smart. Hud properties quarentee the rent. They pay as much for a moblie home as a house. In my area thats a 50 thousand dollar difference in investment between the two. My houses do rent for more money than the older houses that match hud , but my investment is a killer as Ive got nice stuff. Mine are paying off an investment that will be a good one in the future because they will hold their worth for a long time to come. They just dont make near the money a mobile home park does. Bad job ? I would imagine at times , but theres not a lot of work dealing with rentals. Really, its just unpleasant for a little while in that situation.
Tim Mooney
Headed west?
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Yes VaTom, we are definitly heading west. I'm not sure of the timeline yet.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
I was thinking more immediately, but your response to Jon answered that.
Last time I shut down one business and sold the other was when we moved east, from Denver, to live in the country. Best move we ever made. Hope your eventual one suits you as well. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Wow, a surprise. Planning on hanging it up, or working for someone? You could always start a "business" making your instructional videos!!
Good Luck!!
ADH Carpentry & Woodwork
Quality, Craftsmanship, Detail
Instructional videos?!
Funny you should mention that. About 15 or 20 years ago, I bought a video camera. I had the brilliant idea of using it to create a basic training aid. My motivation was simple...I was tired of teaching the same thing over and over to new hires. Also, I was tired of re-training my current crew. I thought if I had the video, I could simply hand them one and tell them to study it at home...or re-study it if I noted a current employee slipping...
I quickly found out that making training videos is a difficult task, one that I'm not capabale of.
I suppose with today's technology, I might be inclined to set up five or ten camera's and create an overall computer generated video, but since I don't run the jobs anymore, it would look more like a chinese firedrill, rather than a well honed exercise.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
So, do we call you "Professor" from here on out?
<G>
Good luck on the wind down. Enjoy life more!
"A hard head makes for a sore a$$."
IC, I'm not winding down..I'm gearing up!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Now that's the blue I've come to know and respect!
"A hard head makes for a sore a$$."
Blue,
Good luck. Any idea what's next? I know you've been talking about moving west.
Two guys I work with are back on Active Duty after having been self-Employed. All three of us for some time. We often talk about the freedom of it all and how we miss it. Then we talk about why we don't go back. All three of us will make at least E-8 and myself and one of the guys will most likely make E-9. Kinnda hard to walk away from when you weigh the whole package.
It does make me long to swing a hammer in the early spring when I drive by a job site. Then I think of trying to collect the money or hire help and the feeling passes.
Sometimes the end of your business is really the begining of you life. And to tel the truth it ain't all bad.
GOOD LUCK!
It does make me long to swing a hammer in the early spring when I drive by a job site
I know that feeling well. There have been several times in my career when I wasn't doing residential rough frames and the subs were always like a Siren calling me back....
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Youve been a warrior . I wont take away from your thread but I walked by the trail.
Tim Mooney
Thanks Tim. Personally, I'm not troubled at all to leave the carpentry business, I've known for a while that it's not a true business....it's only a grocery gathering craft.
I do feel bad for our last remaining employees, but most specifically Ben. Ben has been with me for about 7 years now. Since day one though, I've been preaching to him to further his knowledge or be left behind. In a way, he's chosen a safe "comfort zone" that ultimatly played a role in us deciding to send him on his journey.
He's a great framer and someone will be glad to have him, as long as they can mesh their programs....
Ben is about to find out how the world of framing is really all about!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Hey Blue
Not going to offer condolences... just a hearty congratulations.
In business it takes shrewd observation to see the the forest for the trees. It takes consternation and guts to make a change...espescially once you get over 30. One becomes a bit risk adverse with age.
The mark of a true entrepeneur... someone who will pack in a business and immedietly be looking forward to the next venture.
Here's the stats from a book that's about 15 years old but that changed my attitude towards business early. "The Entrepeneurial Edge", followed a dozen businesses from fruition to failure and success. They researched thousands of new businesses then followed up after 3 and 5 years.
These are by memory...so don't quote me to the number.
1 in 1000 new businesses go on to net the owner more than 100,000 in pay and profit within 5 years.
That is a 10 in 10,000 success rate.
Of those 10- 7 had help (support) from an outside money provider, could be family or friends or business associates.
Average number of failures in business among these 10 people before having a truly successful business?
7
Plan well Blue-and enjoy the ride.
What we all strive to achieve is more difficult than we initially perceive. I for one, believe in Blue.
BTW, I remember you from the early days... respect and admire your posts and look forward to many many more in the years to come.
Lawrence
Not going to offer condolences... just a hearty congratulations.
Exactly!
Lawrence, I should have titled this thread "Someone moved my cheese!". If you've read the book "Who moved my Cheese?" you'd know what I mean.
I am an entrepeneur at heart, but I never took the time to read and learn about business until the last few years...why? because I was spending so much energy living a carpenter's life. I don't regret living the carpenter's life, but it's now time to get seriuos and set myself up for retirement.
Thanks for the kind comments.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Thanks for sharing and your post to Boe told me more .
DWs boss looks for busineses that will run themselves. Pretty close to what you are saying . Then you can spend your time expanding or just maintaining . I believe the constuction business should at least run it self with out you strappin on an apron. I knew an old painter years ago that kept 5 painters full time . He didnt get paint on him, but he always wore a white suit . <G> He told me that it took 5 painters to make "his living " and he over saw it is all. Which means he was running his business but wasnt working in the field. Thats a site better than working 50 hrs a week on the job pushing hands and still having to run the business at night and weekends. Everyone here knows where you are comming from. I saw Mikes picture the other day here and he was out of pocket . I bet the job was covered. If I went back to doing what I was doing , my job wouldnt be covered.
Just my thoughts to share.
Tim Mooney
In the short time I have been a part of this forum, you are one of a few whose expertise I always looked foreward to reading. Our carpentry is different in that all I work on anymore is older homes in reno and restorations but I have framed and done new work in my day. A great framer is a real artist in some ways, at least to my thinking. You're still going to be around here aren't you?
BLue,
i've only been in the homebuilding industry for a couple of years[framing,icf,trim,everything]and i love it .i'm sad to see the way that it is going here in south Texas but i'm going to stick with it. my boss is 48, a custom home builder and icf wall installer he has framed for thirty years and been a builder for 18.he has five childenand he puts his nail bags on everyday and only hires people who are new to the trade so they can learn the right way.he'll never get rich but he puts his own blood, sweat, and tears into every house he builds. i have not seen another builder in Texas who does this.i don't mean to be sentimental but i think building a house is more than just throwing up a structure, it's building a place where someone will spend thier life. that is the respect that i have for carpenters who are true to their trade as you probably are.good luck.
RTC
Thanks RTC and good luck to you in your future. I'm sure you'll find a way to make your career a success. I'd start planning for an alternate income stream however....start reading business and investing and self improvement books on a regular basis. If you read 15 minutes per day, in ten years you won't get caught with unmarketable skills that don't pay well.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
blue... just going thru my library.. found a book you should have
"Building with an Attitude" by Al Trellis
lots of good insights in the new home market.. since i don't build for spec.. i think you should have this...
email me your address & i'll put it in the mail
mfsmith1 (AT) cox.netMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanx Mike!
I sent the addy through the taunton link..I hope your email address is correct in your profile.
I was just getting desparate for a new crop of books to read. I'm starting a very hard to read one on real estate accounting and tax issues.
Good grief....I think I'll leave the details to the CPA!
Now the next one in line is almost as bad....."Your Real Estate Closing: answers to all your questions from opening escrow, to negotiating fees, to signing closing papers". I can't imagine anything more boring than going to real esate closings....
I'll be looking forward to some decent reading....
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
blue.. my email crashed and i never got your address..
please send it again.. but send it direct..
[email protected]
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, I sent one out today direct in response to your email telling me that you crashed. Did you crash again?
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
no... i finally got it straightened out.. i'll check your email tomorrow at workMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
So what are you going to do with your forklift :-) I wish you success Blue. I hope you still come around here and stir things up.
Tim, I'm not going anywhere. If we hurry, we won't have anything spec sold for at least 4 months....that leaves me with plenty of boogerin' on frames for a while. We're starting another one on Thursday.
The most important part of our decision is that we are positively moving ourselves out of the subcontracting market and into the retail end of construction. We're tired of builders using our less than business minded competition to lower our standard of living. By tapping into the same market that they are, we instantly take a step up on the food chain.
Ironically, since we have been the victim of many less than competent builders, we are pretty well primed on how to get the houses built and we know how to deal with all the trades. We've worked with so many idiots, all we have to do is do the opposite.
The last builder that we worked for (the table boogerin' threads) has just asked us to take over his subdivision and help him get it straightened out, and to help him get started in his next sub. We're working up a plan....we might as well, since we were going to be in there building one anyways...
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!