I mentioend awhile back that I had a job coming up that involved jacking a building up and replacing the foundation under it.
Somebody suggected that since the topic comes up occasionally, I ought to do a thread on it for others to see and maybe learn from. I have done this process in one way or another several times in the past twenty years here, but I’m sure others can chime in to add to the knowledge base. I hope you jump in and get dirty with us in this mud hole!
Yes, I got pictures…
The process will be slow for me since I am on dial up.
The house is somewhere around 80-100 YO, and was built on a stone rubble foundation and had settled in about 4-1/2″ to the rear. This type foundation does not use a footing, but a supply of large and small rocks laid with a lime mortar kilned out here on the island and beachsand. Over the years, groundwater leaches the lime away leaving nothing but sand in the joints, so stone moves with frost etc.
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There was a series of glitches in lining up subs, getting permit, and actually getting started on this. I had fully expected the weather to have turn bad and have to delay it until spring came, but the winter starteedd out quite fine and warm, so when the chance came to start, we did.
Of course, you know what happened to the weather as soon as the excavation was finished...
Anyway -
The old cellar allowed only about six feet of headspace - just enough to be dangerous to the scalp, not counting pipes, wires, ducts etc.
The sloping lot suggested a walkout cellar and the owner wanted to be able to use that space better so he asked if we could dig it down deeper to make it useable. The answer was that it depends on what we find for ledge - the local term for the limestone and shale base under allour topsoil, silt and clay.
I have cut into ledge before to create cellar space, but that is an expensive proposition and this is a budget conscious customer - one of my first in several years for whom cost is a large factor in any decision.
Fortunately, there was no ledge in under any of this.
We started by cutting through the slab where our cribbing was to go, and hand digging down to eight feet below existing sills in four spots about 4'x5' to match the size of the cribbing.
I had previously studied the original floor framing layout ( weird) and worked with my steel supplier to come up with a beam size to carry this house over the cribbing locations so we could have room to work and move material and equipment around. Some of this was good planning and some was good luck.
Anyway, we dug the cribbing in and slid the beams in place and took a load on them.
I have about 10-12 hydraulic jacks of different ratings and sizes, plus a few house jacks. We never leave a load on a hydraulic jack overnight without shimming next to it with solid cribbing or an adjacent load sharing post jammed in and shimmed tight.
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Is the HO remaining in the house for this process, or did they clear out?"If the trout are lost, smash the state."
Goodness, no!I wouldn't dream of allowing that! This is a dangerous process and it would certainly cost a great deal more to keep utilities hooked up though the whole time. In a coupl eof other much larger places, we did like a third of the structure at one time and had to keep things running, but those customers had deep pockets and high hopes.This house had belonged to a widow whose hubby had been a tradesman mostly in plumbing and electrical.
Things had progressed on the house by bits and pieces over the years as theycould aford this and that.
In the house there are five different styles of casing used. I recognise every one of them as being distinct to some certain mansion down at the other end of the island, so I conclude that he was able to make deals for left over materials over the years.The small porch additions at the rear corner were very poorl;y executed and planned. A part had only cedar posts with pt sheathing for foundation...
There was no real true kitchen in this house. The space that had been so used was small and had several doors and windows using up traffic patterna dn wall space, so we are making that a first floor bathroom and office space. The old bump-outs are demolished and there will be a 14' x 16' addition in that NW corner of the house.I guess I skipped a step in my description. Before we started on the foundation, we demoed those corner bumps off the house proper. Firstthing was to remove fixtures like toilet and doors that would be saved and re-used, then we cut copper loose, and traced out power lines to disable at the service panel. ( It was not ong after that, that I had a four way GFCI hooked up and then killed all the rest of the breakers in the panel - just in case. Another thing we did as a first part of demo and excavation was to locate the septic system and mark it, then to dig drainage downslope to give ground water a place to go.
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Now some few shots of the cribbing and beams in place...Wait a minute - I smell steak on the grill... be back later guys
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Steaks on the grill??????Here???-18c and blowing snow.BITE ME"No doubt exists that all women are crazy; it's only a question of degree." - W.C. Fields
You guys measure your temp up there in funny numbers to make it seem colder than it is so you canhave bragging rights! It is only about ten dergreed F here.Back to brass tacks - boy that steak was good. So were the fried onions and taters alongside it. Gives me the juice I need. Here is a shot of what I get to see some mornings when I get to the job this taken across the street in front. Views like that juice me up too!
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When we first set the cribbing, we did not have the steel yet, so I wanted to load it and let itstart sttleing in.to stack cribbing, you need a smooth firm flat surface. Most of the time, you are down on dirt or in mud even. That means you know it will settle some, so it's good to get started. I build it with a level at hand just like a mason does. Every course I check for level until it is consistant. If the crib is off, it can tiop, and a jack needs to be sitting level to lift much without kicking out and breaking somebodies jaw or wrist.This shot is of the first crib ( SE corner) dug in and loaded. The old cellar window is where the steel will slide in.I bought the steel full 30' long so it would be more useful in various locations again or be more saleable used. In the new foundation, there will be a cellar window right there too!
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Once the steel was slid in, we could start doing some more serious digging and demo the stone rubble walls from under this bear. We are keeping the front east wall in place for stability. It is the most stable of all the original and is in under a front porch on that end. Later, we will replaster it of if need be, pour a one sided bulkhead to hold it. The whole sill above it is dead on level and the high point of the whole place. So we jack up to that as zero point elevation.
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The inspection report they got before purchasing showed a small amt of coliform bacteria in the well. This unfortunately is not uncommon here in Maine. It occours when rotting organic matter is able to leach into the water of the well for one reason or another. We found out why with this well. It is sited only about five feet from the foundation and apparantly at some point in time the pitless fitting was changed. a sm,all patch plate was wedged up against the casing to clamp the fittiongs onto, but no attempt was made to weld or otherwise seal the casing there, so any rainwater could wash right into the well. There were two downspouts landing withion about 8' of that spot.We''lll have to grind and weld a patch on here for the new supply. There will also be a submersable pump instead of the old suction beast.
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Your project looks a little like my 100 yo house in NJ. I've long thought of removing the stone foundation, digging deeper and replacing with new. Somewhere I heard that it may be easier to move the house away, build the new basement and then move the house back rather than simply raising the house above the basement. What are your thoughts on that.
It's true, depending on site conditions. We did that with one I posted a couple years ago here - the cannonball house from 1800even cheaper can be to build the new foundation next to the existing, then move house onto the new one. That way, the mover only needs to show up once.when going deeper, it's a good ide3a to know where your ground water level is normally, especially if you don't have a sloping lot for good drainage.
On this, we found the ground water to be just right about 8'2" below the sills. We are placing plenty of interior and exterior drain in stone to keep it flowing away. I was suprised top find the water that high. This house sits on top of a hill at one of the highest points on the island. But we had a lot of fall rain going into winter.
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Piffen,
Great thread. How recent is this work/pics?
Do you work solo like Forest (McDesign)?
Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
I have done solo work. Actually prefer it, but haven't done any solo since about 2002. That was the year we were dealing with wife's breast cancer, so I had to focus on that and couldn't be ramroding a crew...You don't see many pictures of my guys 'cause they are all camera shy.This job is happening right now. Started about a month ago or so. The ICFS are all stacked with rebar and we would have poured tomorrow except for this storm we just got.
Today was for digging out. start on braces and whalers tomorrow.
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You never cease to amaze me with the jobs you take on. Please keep the pictures and explanations coming until the job is completely finished, and thanks again for sharing your expertise with everyone.
I neer cease to amaze me either. How did I convince myself I needed a job like this?
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Thanks for this thread! That cellar looks unfortunately like mine...except thet mine is still pretty close to plumb & level - it's only around 100 yrs old - house was 200 when it was moved.
Hardly enough time to get a good crop of spiders going...;)
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We did two homes about four years ago almost exactly how you are doing it. ICF's for both, skid steer to excavate. One home was 2000sf and one maybe 1200. The second one the owner did partially occupied, not my choice, and yes too risky to imagine. Neither was a money maker for us (many reasons why) but gratifying work. Cost to the owner was reasonable considering usable sq ft gain. Best part personally was I then had the equipment to raise my house 16-20" to get it out of the dirt and create reasonable head room in the basement. This year I shored up about half the house and dug for the addition out two sides. I'd can post photos but they would look very similar to yours. Two things I learned are that houses are not that heavy (everything is relative, I know) and how amazing it is that current codes or building standards call for way more bearing area (footing sizing) than many old homes built by farmers had, not to say that the farmers were right, just amazed that two of the three I worked on didn't show signs of settling, etc. Although labor intensive, this work is fun because you get involved with every system in the house and trade.
GregT
OK, I guess I did not yet post shots of the footings. We made these 30" wide. Took close to 12 yards including a center pad under the chimney we are saving.I did not get as many photos as I usually take, but things were a little hectic at times with wrapping and unwrapping and fighting wind and cold
so the camera was the last thing on my mind most days.I have about 24 concrete curing blankets, a few tarps, and the hay keeping the ground under this from freezing and heaving on us. We have now had a month straight with almost no temperture reading above freezing, but you can drive a stake in anywhere around this footing and pull it out damp.
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I really like the way you dig down, set the cribs and start loading right away prior to excavation. It's refreshing to see a well thought out game plan for these things.
The primary house lifter here does it ars backwards and cribs on the current level, requiring careful digging around the cribs by the excavator and occationally the mover will show up to recrib. Last year the contractor across the alley almost lost a 3,000 sqft 2-story because not enough dirt was left around the cribs and the house started to slowly but consitantly settle to one side. It was hard to get ahold of the mover and the house was on track to the point of no return in less than 8 hours.
Cheers,
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I hate it when that happens...;)
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man , you got a lot more jacking equip.than me..do you have a barn to keep your stuff in ?
somebody told me those are called "fotters" not footers... has something to do with pouring them when you're cold
hey... the extra 8x8 (? )... is it holding a concrete hearth ?...
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Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
See the angled piece protruding through it? That is holding the chimney up. The one you ask about is actually only 6x6 and extends out to the corner of the house. I had shot a bunch of other photos of some stuff that I never saw dowload off the camera - maybe weak batteries???? I don't know where they went...Anyway, this 6x6 extends where the building juts out an extra 3-4 feet cantilevered across the steel at what becomes a point load, so we keep an extra jack set there for now.
We kept it in place when pouring footers with wrappe sleevintg it. Then after footers poured, we set another post on top of the crete, near edge of footer, and pulled the first jack post out of its sleeve. to form walls.Here is a shot of that chimney bottom. More later today of wall progress and i'll see if I can get the posts clearly.Jacking equipment - I keep the jacks indoors in the shop ( which is more storage than shop nowdays) but the cribbing gets stacked with stickers to let it breathe and a plywood cover to shed most of the water. You can see in the photos that 2/3ds of this cribbing is new rough cut. I used to have twice as much of old cribbing as now, but I culled some ten year old stuff for rot and burned it to avoid liability, and then ordered the new. That was about $750 in 16' lengths. I cut it with my chainsaw as we placed it.Maybe someday I'll have to dig out some of my old 35mm archives to share here. Just got carole a new all in one machine that seems to have a negative scanner. We haven't used that feature yet.She is going over for her MRI this morning on that knee
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all of our cribbing is PT.. 4x4, 4x6, 6x6, 8x8... all cut-offs from jobs over the years.. so it never rots.. we crib-stack it for storage behind the shed
tell Carole the ortho is a piece of cake.. and the relief is won-der-ful........like new knees
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I'v got some PT cut-offs like that, but wouldn't buy new PT - too expensive. a good half my older pieces are from demoing old places. One had a lot of 8x8 cypress posts holding it up.
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Thanks fer posting this. It's interesting to follow along with.
“Aim towards the Enemy.†[Instruction printed on US Rocket Launcher]
Was the bottom of the chimney removed because it was part of the old stone foundation? All those bricks, I assume there's a lot of weight in a chimney. Isn't there a concern that as you remove the foundation of the chimney, the whole thing will come crashing down?
Seems scary doesn't it?
The chimney will be relined with Golden Flueas it is not useable as is, but they do no want to tear into the walls above to rebuild al the way up through.As long as we stairstep back on the bond pattern, a small chimney like this can support on one brick at the corner.So to demo it from beloow, we took out the bricks on one side, then fitted in a 2by lagged up into near framing. Then added a temp leg under that and shimed tight to the brick above it. Then I knocked out the rest of the chimney base. Then added the diagonal that aids holding the rest up through the house. The weight would cause some deflection in the beam that transects the house there, so we keep leapfrogging posts to support it all, but having moveable posts beats working around a chimney amd it had to be built down 2-3 feet anyways.I worked on one once that was three stories above and a steep 14/12 roof added height. It carried three fireplaces and a furnace flue. The footing base for that one took over four yards of crete and the block work dims was about 5'w x 7'l We supported it on two I-beams passed through the base originally and set on cribbing to of the footing hole while we worked. All this had to be done inside a cellar so getting materials in and finding elbow room to work was a nightmare.
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are you doing the digging under the house with the tractor or do you use a skid loader? this will be interesting to follow,it's something that just isn't done here in the midwest,one most of the buildings are less than a 100 years old. and ground is easily available so people just move on and tear down the old one.
i do have 1 house that is OLD for these parts 1880. i joke that the piers under the center are flintstone rocks.rolled till it was pretty level and built on.
keep the pics coming. larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
These rocks give you some respect for the guys who set them way back when....Some foundations I've worked on, you can tell that they just dug a trench and rolled the buggers in. This one seems laid up, but it is about the widestest with the largest boulders I have seen in one of these.Here's a shot you'll enjoy. They added a bulkhead for exterior steps into the cellar at some point in time, enclosing it in just cement block. The old stones where they let into the wall were just rolled into a corner...Houses get saved here because so much of the time there is some historic significance or siting grandfathering, or a view....Wioth this house it is siting and view.
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looking at that 2x sticking out of concrete,kinda makes you wonder if it was pressure treated! lol . larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Edited 2/15/2007 9:57 pm by alwaysoverbudget
NO PT in that place except the porch which must have been more recent.What you see there is just a 4x4 laying about. That is one of the shots from my original inspection tour - about the way the place looked when they bought it. edit - you mean that green 2x4?
I see it now. There were some apinted 2x4 spruce railings on porches so that must have been one of those pieces
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Edited 2/15/2007 10:17 pm ET by Piffin
Ooops, forgot to answer your Q. Lots of distractions going on here with phone calls etc.The tractor is mostly hauling out and that center path dig. Some of the digging is from outside reaching with the excavator, and some by hand around the cribbing and walls.Piers are an easy replacement. You can do them by hand one set at a time. Last one i did on piers - I lifted about 2-3 feet up to create a crawlspace and get the sills out of the mud. That one was a solo job on a little cottage about 24x24 with a bumpout bathroom on back and porch on front.
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Paul,
you do all yer own Jacking?
We used Clayton Kopp(sp.) a few times.
He is Big time into Jacking and moving.I don't feel safe in this world no more I don't want to die in a nuclear war I want to sail away to a distant shore and make like an ape man
Clayton moved that last one for me, But he likes to winter down south and this would tie up equipment for quite a while. He can do all myu moving, but simple lifting is cheaper and easy for me to do myself.I'm thinking about digging into old photos. Just got a new scanner for the wife and I think it has a feature to digitize negatives. just grabbed the book to study tonight and see for sure...
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Because of the interest in the ICF portion of this, I thyought I'd attach a few from a job two years ago we did with them.AARX3 shows that you have to watch how you buy them This whole pile was returned to the vendor because of shipping damage. It also shows =why there are some vendors not interested in carrying them. The warehopusing and delivery can get expensive especially if you don't train your drivers and stock handlers.AARX4 shows how we consider it important to cover up every night. a snowfall inside these can shut the job down for the rest of the winter. I know a job where that happened.
You can also see that with a jobsite portable tablesaw, it is not hard to deal with steps in the footer over uneven ledge. It does take some thinking, but it is doable.The "tied" shots looking inside a wall show a trick using wythe to help hold the wall straight from the inside without as much bracing
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Piffin,
Fascinating tread! Thanks for posting it. It brings back memories of jacking up and re-doing the foundation on our 120 year-old retirement home in Newfoundland a couple of years ago. Traditional foundations there are nothing more than 8-10 vertical log piers (usually tamarack). These foundations are done just like the fishing stages you see which are half on land and half over the water. Over the years, the wood piers are either re-done or sometimes changed to concrete piers. Anything like that in Maine? Again, thanks for posting.
Chip Tam
Yes some old ones, but now we have a rule that precludes construction within 75' of the shore except for maritime industries able to show need
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Good thread! Thanks
Kevin
Wepour these walls today. You just reminded me to bring my checkbook and camera...
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From:
Piffin <!----><!---->
3:27 am
To:
dockelly <!----><!---->unread
(85 of 85
Three AM?! If I'm at 3AM, it better be cuz I was out drinking and am just getting home to bed!
OK, where's our new pics?
jt8
"The cynic is one who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing." --Oscar Wilde
Piffin,Is that pic as big as it came out of the camera ?If not, could you email me the original, larger one that came from the camera ?Thank you.=0)
i am trying to be normal, i really am, but until i get there at least i have breaktime. ~segundo
You've got it full sized. I keep the settings low on the camera except inspecial circumstances.Here's a couple more from that morning and a bonus one...
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Thanks, Piffin.The first one just struck me as worthy of being a painting. I like the one with the moon even better.=0)
i am trying to be normal, i really am, but until i get there at least i have breaktime. ~segundo
I'm honestly not sure that's a moon. All three were taken within a few minutes of one another and it only shows in one shot, so it must be a spec of dust making a faux moon.Gotta run back out to the job now.
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I know people who would claim that was a ghost...;o)
i am trying to be normal, i really am, but until i get there at least i have breaktime. ~segundo
I've read that book. if there is anything to it, this camera is worth serious ghost hunting money!;)
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So where were we?I think I had showed the footers poured and covered to cure. We got a good storm that weekend and the owners came up from Delaware to go over design details going forward. They brought some money along too. after the footers were poured, on monday we stripped the footing forms and placed the perimater drain in stone. Some hay was down already so we went with the old way and placed plenty more and laid the drain in stone and covered with stone to top of footing. Clean walking surface with some insulation value. When the time comes, we'll place some landscape fabric over it.In spite of the weather, we feel lucky that the banks are frozen stiff. It looks like they would be weeping enough water to be caving in and making a mess of mud if it were spring.On the interior, we have the same. The owners had expressed concern for radon, so we are placing a strong interior drainage with an upper lead out to be able to vent under slab. The drain lines are enclosed in stone again too. No pictures specificly of that as we are keeping it covered against the cold as much as possible.so - we started placing the ICFs. The footers had keyways placed when we poured, and we drill #4 rebar into the footings every 16-24" for verticle legs. Normally we would have the verticle placed in the footer when pouring, but with the tent and weather, that becomes a dangerous proposition. To do the layout, we set the laser level on footer and aligned beam with the sill above, then marked location and snapped lines. ICFs need to layout in one inch increments so some adjustment is sometimes needed. We had a step down in this footer too, as you may have noticed. all the literature for ICFs stressses how important it is to make stps in 16" increments and to have footers near perfectly level.
Yes - and No, It is poosible to vary that, but it depends how much work you want to do. These footers are pretty good and level within 1/4" and we shim sometimes and use spray foam in a can sometimes.
For the step, we just used the tablesaw to adjust -OK to do that within an inch or two, so long as you don't compromise the web spreaders.A few photos, then more talktalk
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actually, one of the benifits of using ICF forms is how easy it can be to fit to certain irregularites.For instance where we fit to the old rubble stone wall, it is easy to whittle and carve to fit fairly close, then use spray foam in the can to seal it to.
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We were aiming at pouring today, but that storm early in the week created a good extra day of cleanup work, so I bumped it to monday, then today, we took a good look and decided that the weather is better for wednesday.Since this is an island, winter pours are tedious to schedule. I have to spend hours back and forth with the batch plant, the ferry service, the pumper outfit, and the guy who aligns the stars and the clouds. I have to anticipate way far in advance.A couple of years ago,the night before a floor pour we had a storm that drifted 6' into the cellar hole and had to shovel it out while resceduling.Then a truck broke down on another day. Altogether, we had three moisfires on that pour before everything came together right. We got 45° more or less and finishing until midnight, then I covered with the blankets about 2:30AMI hate concrete almost as much as I love a good concrete job once it's finished.There is a point to all this - good planning never hurt anybody, but if a delivery shows up and things go bad because of weather or unstable forms or whatever - things are gonna get expensive in a hurry.So I spent a couple hours studying weather pmaps, amd making phone calls while home for luch today. The guys were over there adding bracing to the walls
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And here is what they were doing.North wall exterior is baced to the bank and will have a walk plank under where you now see the tent. That plank will be attached rfor extra whaler strength and sway brace. I rarely use these for a full tall wall.The interior of the same north wall is next as viewed from the NE corner. the bracing is incomplete there.
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Whew, this is hard work posting all these gigitals....LOLSo here are a few more shots of what is going on. Take a look and then ask what puzzles you...
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Piffin,
What an incredible job! Exactly what I would have expected to see from you. Guys like you and Smith make me feel embarrassed to post my tiny projects on the same forum.
Here's kind of a hokey question. Do you ever feel a little bit nostalgic when restoring those old structures--thinking about the craftsmen who were there before you, just looking around in amazement at what they were able to accomplish without the benefit of 80% of the equipment that we take for granted every day?
I'm kind of a history guy and appreciate stuff like that. It aint all about $$$$$$. When it is, I'll quit.Live in the solution, not the problem.
Nostalgia isn't what I would call it, but Phil Moody - my sub on this- and I were marvelling at the stones in this foundation and how they would have been placed there way back when...This house is nothing special really. I have done some in the other end of the island that are really special, from the golden era. I feel like I persinally know one of the architects from back then - Fred Savage - who has done several houses here around the turn of the last century ( 1896-1900) and a great amny more in Bar Harbour.
I have read from his plans and have restored or done major work on three of his houses here. I have followed his work enough that I often found myself thinking, "What would Fred do with this..."Here are a couple shots of his work...
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Very cool stuff Piffin. I especially like the eyebrow on the right side of the gambrel. I've never had the chance to build one, but hopefully someday. Thanks again.
Just think what all you and Fred will be able to chat about one day.Live in the solution, not the problem.
Wana know the cool thing about F Savage? He has a lot in common with me. He did not come into architecture through school and that route. He did plenty of odd jobs and was I think, a secretary when he got involved in designiong buildings. He had a sense of taste and what he did was appreciated by the wealthy as they were building summer homes here. So his name got passed around and he was suddenly a success because of his talent and good attitude. He probably made some regular architects jealous
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Great pics of the F Savage house -
Not to highjack this excellent thread, but since you're saving an old house . . .
It never ceases to amaze me that the quality of exterior design 100 years ago, whether it be an architect designed mansion or a worker's cottage built by a local carp, is so much better than what people throw up today.
It seems like proportion, symmetry, and just plain beauty were instinctive, to the point that a house couldn't have been made any other way.
Now, even people building houses for a living think nothing of placing windows out of balance on a front facade, or windows not lining up with those on the story below - among countless other feats of ugly.
Any idea as to why? Is it just a classical training that used to be standard?
Edited 2/21/2007 2:11 pm ET by RickD
Piffin,
I hope your pour went well and that you are now well lubricated and celebrating. It's a big load off the mind to have those forms filled with mud and no serious hassles getting there.
Can you explain your wiring in the Aarx tied pic? I don't get it.
Ron
We have always used wire ties to secure each block to previous. That way the whole wall stays tight together in wiond and is internally braced so less bracing is necessary. Some guys have gone to using the plastic ties like are used to secure electrical wires together.I just finished managing and labveling my photos of the pour but am getting too tires to post them now. Maybe tomorrow or over the weekend.It did go well.
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Piffin, thanks a bunch for this thread. It is an excellent one. It helps too that I've recently jumped on the ICF bandwagon. We haven't done any yet, but everything you're doing and showing re-inforces my ideas on this product.
I haven't decided how we will approach the second and third stories of any building we do, but I'm leaning toward 100% icf construction. I'm concerned about at what point the outside walls have to be to make these structures comparable with what we do framing here.
The r value charts and air infiltration charts are my starting point, but I learn by doing them and studying them. I'm living in my first house that I've designed/built and I'm cold! Now I'm entering Phase II on it and I'm thining ICF thirty feet up! I'm also going to study them on the school if we put a few more floors on it.
blue "...
keep looking for customers who want to hire YOU.. all the rest are looking for commodities.. are you a commodity ?... if you get sucked into "free estimates" and "soliciting bids"... then you are a commodity... if your operation is set up to compete as a commodity, then have at it..... but be prepared to keep your margins low and your overhead high...."
From the best of TauntonU.
Careful, Blue- they're a great system, but somebody did a five or six-storey apartment block on the road I take to work with Amvic ICFs and pre-cast slabs, and it took forever. Like watching a glacier move. Doubt he made anything on the deal...
Blue,
I see more and more larger multi-unit buildings turning to ICF construction. Economies of scale apply as you get bigger and a little more shell encloses a lot more volume.
Even with smalleer residential jobs, the cost above grade is comparable to highly detailed air-sealed wood framing and the performance is much better.
Below grade, ICF costs less than pouring a convenional monolithic foundation and then framing and then insulating inside that.
The best part of all is that it puts the foundation in the hands of the people who are able to lay out accurately and care what plumb, level and flat mean to a house - the carpenters.
Ron
There is one here that went up thirty feet. The only other way to be comfortable on a northwest facing beacjh in winter is to use spray foam for the insulation!The way they did that one was to use thicker forms for the basement level with the ledger form to support the first floor systm and pour up to that point first, then build the floor to tie the walls together. Then they worked fromthat floor to stack ICFs up to the second floor and use the ledger form again, pour that one, frame the floor, etc.When you stop and go like that with cold joints the trick is to use the metal C-channel to protect the tops of the forms while pouring so they are clean for the next set.
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OK, I've got time and energy now to fight with getting some more photos up here.Remember this is an island. getting crete is a minor miracle in the winter. This was the third time I had tenatively scheduled and bought reservations for the ferry. The weather was great that day. Got up to about 35°I got htere at first light and started dismantling the tenting. I got about a third of it all cleaned out of the way before the crew got there on the first ferry to take over.I also did my final inspection of the forms and steel.But I got a call with the first bad news of the day. The pumper reservation was for that ferry, and the two concrete trucks had reservations for the ten oclock, but they were aiming for the nineoclock ferry with 50/50 odds of getting onboard that one.The call was to let me know that the captain would not let my pumper truck on for the eary boat because the tide was very low so the angle of the loading ramp at top and bottom created a situation where the long wheelbase and low carriage might have hung up. So he was delayed by an hour to the nine. No big deal - that gave the crew plenty of time to finish setting up and stripping the tent.Then I drove down to the ferry to meet the concrete trucks on the ten o'clock boat to escort them in to the job. By ten twenty I could see across thebay that the ferry still had not left the other side so it was time to get nervous. I had reservations for leaving the island on the 1:30 boat for all three trucks, but it was looking like they would not make it, the reservation money would be lost, and the bill would include a waiting charge. The delayed ferry was because they were re-fueling. Another hour gone. I called the crew to let them know what's up. I'd been on the phone so much that my battery went down and I then had to keep it plugged in in the truck. While waiting, I had to make a few other calls re custom stainless sink from Elkay and some other issues on other jobs.
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So, they finally all landed and we got pumping. There were a couple minor glitches at first. The pumper normally carries his own priming and clean up water, but he was worried that the long trip might lead to a freeze up, so it took all the extra water from the first truck to get him ready to go. Then when we called for him to add extra water, he had to haul a few five gallon buckets from the second truck.
So the first portion didn't quite have the slump we'd have liked. Had to work hard to vibrate it in using strapping to poke away. No vibrator on site because it is normally noit necessary for these. I grabbed the demo hammer to pound on the braces and vibrate. It only took thirty seconds on each one to get some weeping at joints.One of the drawbacks of ICFs can be that you will never see if you have any voids or honeycombing in the structure. of course, there are guiys who can enjoy that fact, LOL. Point I make about it is that you really should have somebody who has a good feel for vibrating or compacting it. Too much and you walk the water out and weaken the mix or even could cause a blow-out. Too little and you have voids that weaken the wall and make it more pourous and easier to let ground water into the cellar.
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http://www.icfmag.com/how-to/ht_good_vibrations.htmlI meant to include that link with the last post.The photos here are just some views of the work going on forthose who haven't seen a pumper in action before.
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We finished pouring by about 1:30 PM but they still had to clean up so only the first truck made it back onthe 1:30 ferry. The pumper and second truck had to wait for the 3:30 so they had a long day. I was embarrassed at how much crete I had left over. We were all suprised. I had calced the fill to need 12.46 yards looking at it one way and taking it another way, it came to 13.1 yards.
That morning when I got up and was in the shower, I remembered that we lose half a yard to the pumper, so I called and upped the order to 14 yards. You NEVER want to run short on an island.I usually hit my call within about a half yard, but when they emptied the excess on this one, I had a good two yards puddling there. Had I realized how much I would have sent it back.We broke it up early the next morning while still green easily though. This job needs extra backfill material so no problem.Of course, we always keep a couple of pad pods ready to pour with extra material.
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Paul,
Looking good. 2 yards is quite a yard bunny. Do they surcharge you when you send crete back?
How do you move those pad pods? Do you sink an eye-bolt?
Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
I imagine with a ferry ride back that sending concrete back is not an option.
I may be wrong.
Yeah, we can send back, but they'd rather not.Just thoughtI would throw in here about the title of this thread - The storey of the big man John Henry who had been a driller with sledges and steel for blasting holes in rock way back when the steam drill started to replace real men doing that.One of the verses of the song quotes him as saying,
"Well before I let that steam dril beat me down,
Gonna die with my hammer in my hand, Oh Lord!
Gonna die with my hamer in my hand!"whenever I am faced with a big hairy job or need a boost of adrenaline to get me through a day, I sing that song or that storey comes to mind and I think about stubborn old John Henry.'course I have to go into denial about the fact that he died!;)
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I wasn't sure if you could send it back or not, they won't do it here and it's not an island.
Good project you have going, very informative for a wannabe like me.
Whay don't you up that font size a little, please?http://logancustomcopper.com
http://grantlogan.net/
It's like the whole world's walking pretty and you can't find no room to move. - the Boss
I married my cousin in Arkansas - I married two more when I got to Utah. - the Gourds
For some reason all the print on this site is tiny now. It's hard to read the threads, impossible to read my reply's as I type them.
I take it you are not having this problem. I up the size so I can see the message as I type. I wonder what the problem is now.
scroll to the bottom of this page and see the line for "Adjust type size" select about a 10. see if that helps.
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You are a bad man!
It's fixed.
Thanks, I was having problems this week with the site and wondered if this was a side effect.
Thanks for the thread. I have been busy and not keepin up.
This AM I read all 110 post and looked at 98% of the pics. WOW!
I am thinking of leveling a farm house here on the prop. Your project is an inspirtion.
How about some pics of the ferry operation?
Inspiration eh? You mean it looks like this house oughta be torn down?;)I must have some fery picuters in here someplace but they aren't the kind I file and remeber where to look so I'd have to scroll Picassa or something for awhle.There is something about the ferry that you might find interesting. There are places in the Old Testament where they refer to the Elders sitting in the gates of the city that I understand better now.The elders back then did not have TV and such to entertain them and they needd to be informed as they made decisions, so they often spent their time at the city gates watching the visitors and trade come and go, and keeping up with the goosip as well. That was the place where the seven O'clock news happened...Ferry here is similar. I can spend the day trying to contact various subs who may or may not answer cell phones etc, but I find times when I go drop somebopdy off at the fery that I might run into three at once waiting in line and get more done in twenty minutes there than all day long...It can be a source of entertainment as you watch the smmer visitors get confused about where to park or some who try to cut in line. You get to learn who is going off for medical treatment or leaving on vacation and who is watching their house while they are gone. It is the place you can go to scedule a load of stone deliverd to the job, and if you have an item coming on the delivery truck that you need right away, but it might be after lunch before it gets to your job, you can have called and it will be on top of the load so you can meet the truck there to get it. It used to be that when the fish and game wardens came over on the ferry, somebody would have called somebody else and most everyone on island would know they are coming before the ferry landed.It is the umbilical cord of all news and commerce for the island!
A lot of our funny and frustrating stories revolve around the fery.
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Yes, we have studied the Elders sitting at the gates. I am sure it is a place as you describe, but it also is a picture of how the leadership is watching over those who live inside the gates, monitoring the traffic for the good of the people.
This would take on modern significance as the elders in a church take thier place of authority and leadership for th protection of churh members.
Between the pump and mixing trucks, there has to be close to a million dollars in equipment there. How does the liability work in terms of the ferry ride? Does the steamship authority carry the liability or do you because you bought the reservations?
no sure what liability you mean.The ferry is run by the State of Maine Dept of Transportation, bridges division.The govt never accepts liability for anything.
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I expect that legally, the ferries are considered part of the highway system, and therefore standard insurance policies would cover the vehicles.
Right.I didn't know if he meant if the ferry sinks - or what.They have dropped a couple of trucks in the water over thirty years
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Bet those concrete trucks don't float very well.
jt8
"The flower that follows the sun does so even on cloudy days."--Robert Leighton
One was a car carrier and one was a dump truck hauling paving asphalt.Not only did they have to fish the truckout, but that cold blacktop material had to get dredged.Funny storey there about how the island grapevine works....
I had just got home and jumping in the shower when DW called because she was stuck on the mainland and what the reason was.
I had the portable phone near the shower 'cause of waiting for a business call.
Then the local newspaper editor called for DW and that is how she got the news. She ran down to photograph it. Her paper was just going to bed that day or the next.
This is a bimonthly newspaper we are talking about, and that was her first time to have scooped the mainland dailies on a story. And she got the tip from an old fart taking a shower miles away from where it had happened.
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I guess if they dump enough asphalt and concrete trucks, they could do away with the ferry service. :)
jt8
"The flower that follows the sun does so even on cloudy days."--Robert Leighton
Hope this doesn't look like a thread hijack but it goes hand in hand with this job of yours. I was on the phone with the house lifter for my beach bungalow, I assume you remember what I'm talking about. He again reiterated it would probably be better to have a continous foundation instead of piers and it got me thinking. So I priced the ICF's at same place you got yours, about $1500 not including delivery. Concrete needed is about the same, 6" thick wall. I was surprised at how close the two approaches were. Still need piers for the porch and some inside to hold beam beneath floor joists, but even if it comes out to $1-2000 more at the end of the day, seems like the better approach. In other words ICF foundation under house and piers for porch, a no brainer? Already spoke with engineer and he said it would do.
Things that could increase that:Coating with a synthetic stucco coat on eaxterior to approximate the look of concrete.More excavation and backfill workpossibl added permit work - if you are in a flood plain and the flood ordinance there requires free flow of water through opennings....
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I've been doing more research since I posted to you. Got a delivery charge of $600, but there is a sale going on so the forms are $1500, $2100 delivered. And, as you say, a finish needs to be applied. If it were done with plywood or rented forms, once forms come off, I could finish the concrete with a brick veneer when the budget permits. The concrete would be acceptable as a finished surface. Plywood for the job would be about 500. Of course there would be additional lumber costs, making rental of forms more attractive.
Did you waterproof the exterior? That also adds to the cost. Liked the ICF's for ease of assembly, but I really don't need the insulation for a non-living space.
Anyhow, thanks for the input.
Kevin
PS code does require flood vents. I looked into smart vent, $175 per, ouch! gotta be a cheaper way. Running out of time if I want to use it this summer, I'll be pulling the trigger on one design or another pretty soon. Now if I had only hit the Mega Millions.
Edited 3/8/2007 7:58 pm ET by dockelly
OK Boys and Girls, where was I ?If there is some overlap here - Oh well.We got the building loaded onto the walls about five or six days after the pour. The excess crete broke up easy and became part of backfill in a location away from the walls and wheere I do not anticipate digging in the future for porch posts.We laid in drainage, stone, textile, and gravel backfill. We only went up about 3' with backfill untill we get the rest of the wall done and house firmly planted on it.On the walls we used a Bituthene like material, then a drainage mat to start up. Wanted to get enough att he base immediately to keep it from freezing deep and to facilitate drainage flow on surface because of fear of rain followed by freeze.Once we got that far and tented back down, we had a big snow and then a week of stay home. Meanwhile I marked out the wall and the plumbers got in to rough in the waste lines.
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In the waste layout picture, looks like you cut out grooves in the foam for the pipes to lay in. Doesn't that compromise the insulating properties?"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Yes it does for that small area. We'll be using spray faom back around them to secure them in place. This still better than loosing 2" of space into the room. Every bit of those areas will be underground and not up in the wind chill zone too.
No different than a waste line in any other exterior wall. You make the compromises where you need to.It is pretty typical to cut a channel in for electrical runs too when doing ICFs
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Have you ever had a problem with the walls not being as straight as you would like when installing GWB on the walls? I would think that keeping the walls in plane would be the biggest challenge with using ICF's
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I can't believe you are questioning the accuracy of the masters work. All his corners are 90.00 degrees, walls are perfectly plumb and planar, no dips or bumps in the concrete ... did I miss anything?"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Oh, common...I have had a whale of 3/4" before, but with all the bracing they put on this one, I'll be suprised to find 1/4" which is more than I can say for the framing lumber we get lately
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Oh yeah, you did miss something - all our children are above average;)
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What is GWB?Gypsum wall board?I've never put it directly on the foam. Ran strapping, then the panels. That way IF it needs shimming I can do so, and there is far less tracking for wires into the foam.For instance where the waste lines are recessed into this, they still protrude about 1/2" at the knuckles. The 3/4" strapping will take care of that.That way too, if there is ever a leak in the wall, it is far less likely to ruin SR.
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Piffin
Do you coat the foundation with Bituthene and then apply the drainage mat? Here in connecticut I see just the drainage mat and no bitithene. What is the correct way?
I would like to see a couple a pictures of the house being lowered. Nice project
Greg In Connecticut
I wasn't there the day the house was seated and the steel pulled out. The guys got a day ahead of what I anticipated. I have three jobs to run and be working on so I can't alwys be everywhere at once. It was there and the cribbing all stacked outside already the day i showed up with the trailer to haul it off - so it's stil frozen to the ground.I'll attach a couple photos of it seated here and adress the waterproofing in another post.We leave the 16" space so we can pour under the house. If we had lifted the whole thing 16" and then dropped it, we could have done this all in one shot, but that would have made for other complications on this one.So we lay block on top of the ICF wall. Leave it in 1-1/2" and glue same foam to outside of block. By laying about 8' at a time, we can keep a hydraulic jack ahead of the block and then move it the next day or two. For now, it is all just on cribbing scraps on the wall. Lifting an extra 1/4" where laying block makes fitting it in easier with less point work
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Piffen ,
How are you handling the anchor bolt situation? Especially with an additional 8" block on top of the pour.
Maybe learn a new trick.
What do you suggest? - <sheepishly he said> I'm like Ross Perot, all ears here...;)I had some of the longer Simpson tie straps to fit in the wall but with all the excitement over lining up the pumper, managing the ferry problems and weather, we forgot to put them in. Don't know why, we did the 1/2" bolts at the new.So what I am figuring is to use cut strap ties from the sills to the webs on the inside after things settle in. Best I can think of. I am not very concerned about that one. All these old ladies have been built by laying a sill beam on the rubble foundation in a mortar bed, and building away - never a tie in the bunch of them. But if a tornado ever hits, Watch out Dorothy! Oz is just around the corner from here.
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Piffen,
Man I hate it when things like that slip by in the heat of the pour.
I don't see enough room verticly to drill epoxied embeds in so strapping is about all I can think to use.
I am thinking that thru bolts , drilled in below your top run of rebar in the ICF's with straps both inside and out would easily handle the uplift. I would have to look into a Simposon catalouge to see what is best.
Canned foam to recover and insulate where the ICF's had to be carved out .
I know Simpson makes epoxy retro fit stuff but my memory says it takes a thicker wall than you have.
Be easy enough to carve out some of the foam inside and out, drill, bolt, and install straps long enough to reach up to the rim joist on the outside and to the top of the sill beam on the inside. Some twist straps to joists every 4' or so from sill beam to floor joists would probably handle it on the inside.
Doing straps both inside and out prevents rotation obviously.
I was also wondering if you used lintel block CMU's with a run of bar for that top course?
Run the concept past your engineer and see what he says.
Edited 3/12/2007 11:23 am by dovetail97128
"was also wondering if you used lintel block CMU's with a run of bar for that top course?"Not sure what you mean there? If the one we are laying up under the house - then it is negated as impossible for the same reason we could not pour ICFs that high up
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Piffen,
"Bond Beam CMU's" or "Lintel Block CMU's"
Pre sawn webs so they can be knocked out easily to place rebar in.
If you aren't concerned about anchoring the building to the ICF prtoion of the foundation then the whole thing is a moot point.
I was only asking because using them would allow for another method to place anchors.
I knew what they were, but didn't understand how you would propose wearing them.
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I mean using them
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Ok, now I understand.
All this was just trying to answer your comment about what did I have in mind...
What I was thinking was this. You have enough height to drill for epoxied embeds with the 16" you now have. Maybe have to drill at a slight angle , but that won't matter.
Drill and epoxy 1/2 bar into the ICF filled concrete wall, bar should have a hook bent in the top . Tie in a piece of bar horz. to the hooked embeds, lay one course of CMU bond beam blocks (installed upside down ) over the bar, fill that course while you have 8" to shovel site mixed mud into, except for where ever you decide you want anchor bolts.
Lay up your next course and set foundation straps and fill the voids where you have anchor straps. Just ensure the straps hook the the horz. bar you installed.
Sure it will be hard to get mud into the anchor bolt cavities , but I am betting it can be done
Again if you aren't concerned about anchoring the "Old Girl " it is all a moot point.
I C
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Hi Piffin,Any updates on this thread? pictures?Kevin
Funny you should ask. That has been a lower budget low priority "keep us busy" jobs so we finished the foundation, capped the addition, and let it set for a while so I could get priority ones finished. Today I would have finished the last of seven small jobs in a month or so except that I got hit with some rain last week and a flurry of "While you are here..."sSo next week the guys go on vacation for a bit and I can catch up on paperwork, then we will hit this job again. I'll take a look back in the thread and see what the latest photos are that I posted and I might have a few newer ones.
did you end up with ICF or piers on your shore place down there?
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Seems I missed this message. House gets lifted Monday, we'll be digging the footing Thursday and probably pour the following Thursday. Then 4x8 5/8" plywood forms for a poured foundation 44" off footing. I'll post pictures of everything as it progresses.
Kevin
Wow, I guess I left quite a bit up in the air on this job last time I posted photos, the house was blocked on the wall and the CMU top still had to be run, etc.So Let me see what photos I have hiding here in the old PC...Here are a few, but I must have more interim ones that I failed to catalouge into the right folder kicking around here.
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Nice and neat, south facade shows a house with some character. We'll be lifting mine on Monday, weather permitting. I hope to video it and upload to youtube. I'll start a thread with a link to the video.Good to hear from you, keep the pictures coming.KevinPS Did you see my thread on Zmax with ACQ lumber?
Do a few single photos that those of us on dial-up can see too. I don't waste time on U-tube.I don't remember that thread about Zmax
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Zmax thread:
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=90728.1
Paul,
I know what you mean about staying caught up.
What is the deal with the stringers. Looks like 2X8 SPF with toe nailed blocks. On the commercial jobs I worked on over the years, we would attach 3/4" BC or Ply Form to the 2X12 SYP stringers w/ PL and ring shanks. I see you did use ACQ below the landing.
Chuck S
live, work, build, ...better with wood
Stringers?You mean floor joists or stairs?The floor is framed with 2x10 SPF at 16" OC and solid blocking.The stairs are cut from 2x12 SPF and 2x10 treads at 8/8 which is the same layout that the stair to the second floor above it is. The original cellar stairs were like a ship's ladder.
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I meant the stair stringers. I looked at the pic again. Looks good.
Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
Not really that good. Like I said, this is just a cellar and it is an economy job, relatively speaking.I usually use the Timberstrand for stringers and nicer 5/4 lumber for treads.
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that picture answered a question, steel comes out prior to house being lowered completely. Another question, if it's a solid foundation, I mean a continous foundation, with a dirt crawlspace, does it need waterproofing and foundation drain? I'll be calling the BI tomorrow to check on local codes.
The answer to that Q would be a local peculiarity for various reasons, especially in a flood zone like yours. I
m supposing that regular tidal ingressions might be better met with an open sump pit that you can acccess to clean silting and debris out of.
you also have less concern for freezing.
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just spoke with the BI, no need for waterproofing, perimeter drain or sump pump. I guess the conditions make it a waste of time.
Waterproofing.
I don't believe ther eis any hard and fast way to do that. Some manufacturers just say to waterproof and nothing about how. I have done it many different way according to budget and how wet the soil is.On my own house, I use Stack'n'bond directly on the ICFs after scarcifying them. Did it from footing to top, then used regular emulsified coating below grade. On another one that had close budget and was fairly shallow with dryer soils, I just applied the emulsified below rade first to get backfilled most of the way, then did the stack'n'bond above grade.A couple of years ago, I did one that was for a crawlspace for the utilites and the ledge was likely to lead water towards the wall, and there were likely to be lots of landscapers with weed whackers at it, so I started with I&W shield from sill plate to footing. Then used wire lathe and screws with plaster buttons to attach it. Then had the masons do a two coat parge. That came out good and hard and weed-whacker resistant, but it shows tiny hairline cracks right where the lathe borders are - I think from thermal expansion.
No water inside though.On this one, we are modifying things.
One of the great things about remodeling is the challenges and problem solving. Here, we had to get that footing covered for two reasons, drainage being both of them, LOL. We ended up going about 16" deeper at the end where the addition happens because of soil conditions - to get to firmer Terra. That brought us down lower than where we had set a culvert for drainage and to allow the excavator access around the back side for backfill. but if we'd had a major rain or snowmelt, we'd have been in trouble.So we ran a 3' of I&W (specially made a bit thicker for foundations) up from footer, then the drainage mat, so we could get the start on backfill. Then with gravel aways up that, we had surface flow away from building, and he could dig the culvert back out and dig the drain ditch deeper so we could relax about that one. The lines from drainage under slab, perimeter drain, and waste line towards tank are all under some soil for a few feet out now. That happened just a day before that cold snap that kept us in all last week. I kept enough heat running to keep it 35° inside while the wind chill outside ranged down to -30 at times.From here, then, we will do the block work first, then glue on foam, then run another I&W to lap down over the drainage mat, all just below grade. Then we will parge the foam to the top with Stack'n'bond and finish backfilling and grading when the pile thaws out.Ooops - we will hang another run of 4" drain to lead the downspouts discharge away. This usually runs about 18-224" below grade. We cut and fit it hanging from tie-wire all at one time, then backfill to and around and over it.OK - let's see what photos I have about this whole post ...
A couple shots are from that one we parged over metal lathe
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Plastic dimple fabric waterproofing, my favorite! <G>I've been wondering why you didn't just jack the house up off the rubble wall as well and stack ICF's to the same level as the mud sill, eliminating the subsequent fol-de-rol with block/insulation?
There is a porch on the front of the house that has good footing so it would have been twice the cost to be able to get in enouigh jacks, steel and cribbing to lift the whole thing and do excavation way up there. The lot is tight at that corner and the neighbor has some sentimental shrubbery along the property line they don't want disturbed.So we make do.will probably pour a bulkhead type- one sided wall up against the rubble one left there
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I was thinking of running beams under that porch and just liftng it from ground level, i guess, no excavation needed. I guess you must have worked it out the doubled cost of lifting compared to the cost of jacking, insert a block, jacking, insert a block, but the latter seemed very painstaking, too.I worked on a pour using conventional ply forms in which the house, moved onto the lot, was completely on cribs, the admittedly unstraight foundation walls having been plumbed directly below the irregularly framed house walls; IOW, it was 'perfectly' irregular. We didn't have a fancy-schmancy pumper, thogh, just the chute and only a foot of clearance from the top of the forms to the sill of the house. It was January, 9 degrees, and i had my arm up to the shoulder pulling concrete into tight spaces. Still, it seems a good plan to form it in one go, if we'd just had another few inches clearance between the forms and the house...or a pumper.The guys used some type of anchor that set in the concrete and a strap wrapped the mudsill when the house was lowered, but i don't recall much about that part since my body temp was about 58 by then.
Here are a couple shots from a poured foundation back in 03 I think, where we had ffoundation waterproofing sprayed on. It was a gauranteed product - Then I added drainage mat on the uphill side, becuase there were springs in the soil there two feet above the footer, so I needed to be sure to lead water away...
You can also see a guy working on the downspout drain line in the background of one.
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Anyway - I'm trying to figure out if I answwered your Q or not. What is the right way to waterproof a foundation?
It's kind of like "What is the right way to roof a house?" Lotta different materials and methods.I keep two things in mind - #1 is give the water a pathway to folow. That means a perimeeter drain to daylight or a sump - and a way for water to get to it, thus the stone and drainage mat. #2 is to do a passable job at coating it with something to reple moisture.Out in a town where I lived in Colorado, it was on the banmks of the Colorado river and a wash basin where the river had dumped millions of tons of clean gravel over who knows how long. The soil there was al clean gravel downa good 60' and water would run right through it. Nobody ever used a preimeter drain and the only coating a foundation got was dabs of plastic roof cement on the tie breaks. And nobody ever had a wet basement either.Here, we have four or five times as much percipitation anmd clay soil that holds it. That take a lot of work.I recall when I moved here, that the old timers would say, "This is Maine - you can't have a dry cellar, so there is no reason to try!" So their bassements flood and mine stay dry.
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Piffin
Thanks for taking the time to explain. I have seen many homes here , where they only use the drainage mat, no tar,spray or filling tie holes. What do you think of that system?
Since they started using that system, they have had a lot less foundation leaks.
Greg in Connecticut
I don't know if I would trust either method all by itself alone.A lot of guys use the same soil for backfill as what they take out so the mat is probably most imprtant in that situation. I use good pemeable soil that will be sure to drain.
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Exactly - growing up nowhere near water, the only time we'd hear about boats is when they sink. Kind of the first thing that comes to mind when I think of expensive stuff on a boat.
paul... do you have all your brothers and cousins working on this job ?
View ImageMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
LOL, There are a couple of photos that make it look like a union job with too many bodies loaded up.we'd had two guys pull off another job to help open the tent first5 thing and kept them long enough so just in case of any blowout we would have more guys to help shed tears....LOL. Then they headed off the the other job again. That guy in the red jacket was the salesman from the supply yard who just happened to stop by that day. He was happy to have heard that comment from the pump operator that these builder block forms are the strongest he has seen.
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No charge for sending back. They just wet it down and keep the drum rolling slow. But since we need fill material I took it and they are always grateful to be able to dump. That excavator has a thumb to handle the pads.
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Paul, I'm sure you're aware, but I've seen pours done like yours where they used sawzalls w/o blades in them against the outside of the ICFs to help eliminate honeycombing. I'm sure it's not a substitute for real vibrators. I think they were using that technigue below openings or other places that it was hard to get the vibrator into.http://logancustomcopper.com
http://grantlogan.net/
It's like the whole world's walking pretty and you can't find no room to move. - the Boss
I married my cousin in Arkansas - I married two more when I got to Utah. - the Gourds
I had heard that one, so when it became apparent that we needeed to vibrate, I grabbed the sawsall first and took the blade outDidn't do a thing. I think you would need to have a blade cutt off just short enough to whack the wood. The drive shaft alone wouldn't hit anything to make vibrations - so I grabbed the demo hammer laying there. Had to hit the braces at knots or the point would have dug right into the soft wood.
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Mabe they had some sort of foot welded onto a short blade or something, but I wasn't able to discern it.http://logancustomcopper.com
http://grantlogan.net/
It's like the whole world's walking pretty and you can't find no room to move. - the Boss
I married my cousin in Arkansas - I married two more when I got to Utah. - the Gourds
I can see it working if you prepared ahead of time by cutting a blade short and then bending it over.
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I've used the sawzall trick before to vibrate concrete countertops. It works pretty well, just like grant said- no blade at all. Just stick the foot against the form, and adjust the speed to find where it shakes the most- at some speeds, the vibration isn't much, but at other speeds it's pretty significant.
However, vibrating a small countertop and vibrating your ICFs are two different things. I can imagine it wouldn't cut it for a big project. Or maybe you've got a newer fancy sawzall with counterbalances and stuff.
Thanks a lot for this thread, Piffin. One of the most educational for me since I've been here.zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
if a guy had a old craftsman recip saw you could vibrate anything,it was my first recip back mid 70's.that thing would rattel your teeth out and not cut at the same time!! larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Larry, Larry, Larry...
How many times I gots to tell you to use a sharp blade when you want to cut something. The dull blades are for warming your fingers up
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Hmmm - I's have thought c-balance would be to prevent vibes instead of causing them...could be just the brand - though when I am cutting out beams my PC seems to vibrate my arms more than a Bosch or Milwaukee doesI'll have to experiment now...
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The ones I saw being used were Dewalts - the reason I remeber is that's what I currently have.http://logancustomcopper.com
http://grantlogan.net/
It's like the whole world's walking pretty and you can't find no room to move. - the Boss
I married my cousin in Arkansas - I married two more when I got to Utah. - the Gourds
LOL, When I wrote that about which brand, I was thinking about making a slam against DW but refrained because I didn't know personally if it was deserved.;)'course if I'd said it, somebody would be here to say something like, "Hey, my DW is the smoothest running recip saw I have ever owned!"
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DW ? .... DW?....... man .. i couldn't figure out why you were talking about your wife in that tone ?
oh, well... there's acronyms... and then.. there's something elseMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
That's what I meant- iffen you had a fancy counter balance model, maybe it wasn't shakin so good.
Mine is a basic milwaukee- 3/4" stroke. Seems like it worked best at about 1/2 or 3/4 of full speed.zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
Bushing Hammer in a hammer drill works great for vibrating a form if you don't mind the damage it will do to the lumber.
Nice to see someone who believes in good whaling and bracing!
What's with all the Jackalopes in the Library w/ shelves shot? :)
Piffen-
I like the thought of ICF's but why on this job? Did an archi chose that? Seems like something simpler - plain concrete block - might have been easier to work under the conditions.
Like others, I'm enjoying the thread. Sometime soon, I will need to do a jack up on this place so I can add a second story above - and a basement below in place of the piers and dirt crawl space. You could probably do it in your sleep. I keep losing sleep thinking about it.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
We considered block pretty strongly on this. No architect incolved. I do design/build.There will be block on the upper 16" of these walls where they are under the house. You can't form and pour all the way up to a sill and inject concrete. Even if you could get it all in, it will shrink as it ures down a 1/4" or so, and let the building back down.So we will run 16" of block and parge it over like the rest of the wall so from outside it will all show the same. Block is generally a failure here unless detailed very carefully. Lot of clay expansive soils and lot of water, so re-inforced concrette stands up to conditions better.We have no gravel here so all stone,sand, gravel has to be hauled across on the ferry. I'm talking 25-40 dollars a yard to get it on site.
Another strange thing with this being an island - the ferry they had up until I moved here was a much smaller one that could not handle a concrrete truck, so any concrete was mixed on site using a shovel to meter the mix. Block were more common from about 1920 - 1985, but every one of them is in failure or has already been replaced.When I estimated this with block- poured cores and steel, parged oer, it was about seventeen grand. Then the owners asked about adding insulation to the block. That added up.This ICF with labor and insulated will be right close to seventeen grand, and the re-inforced crete arguably has more integrity than the CMU wall would. It will certainly cure better inside the foam envelope. The other large variable for this time of year is that we'd have had to keep a tent secure over the addition portion while laying block out there. Finally, block work is less common here than say in georgia or Florida, so there are fewer guys doing it. the good nasons stay busy at fireplaces and brick laying most of the time. I used to could lay a hundred block a day, and Phil can too, butthat is in summer.Finally - it's just more fun to use these.
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that stairway is unbeilivable.wow! i'd like to just pull up a chair and sit and stare at that for a few hours.
how will you fill your icf's i know you have a pump truck coming,but things look pretty snug under there. do you just drag the hose around and fill? i notice on your blocks you have them wire tied together,i have done 1 icf and wire tied each block side to side then to the one below it. dealer came out and said " you don't have to do that except in the corners". how do you do yours?
a idea that i had after i was done with bracing [we spent more time bracing the walls than it took to set up by 3 times]. was to go around the first four foot and just screw osb to the webs then do the bracing from there. the idea that the osb would help prevent blowouts.[never had one but thats what everybody fears with icf.
this is a great thread and the pictures add way more than the 1000 words. oh i had to take that sunrise shot and put it on my desktop. that would be enough to get a guy fired in the am. larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
We'll bring out the pumper and write a big check;)That day, while the crew and the crete trucks and pumper start lining up at the ferry, I will be on site at dawn starting to dismantle the tent. I have two guys who are just finishing the backup framing on another job interior who will come over this day to helpo dismantle. There will be that walk plank all the way around the building as part of the bracing, sop a guy can walk it directing the elephant trunck into the walls. I got a tip[ from another guy who does this regularly to make sure and get a pump outfit willing to neck down to 3" or 4" to make it easier to control the flow. Last time I did this I used a 5" snout and it was scary a couple of times. I was not always sure if I had it or it had me.I know they recommend needing to tie to each other only at corners, but there are several advantages to tieing every block to it's neighbor side to and up/down and to the rebar web.One is that the wall being internally tied needs less exterior bracing. What we have done here is excessive but we think conservatively. and we don't do much 8' walls. Most are only about 64" and when internnally tied, they need almost no external bracing. We pour and then add a kicker or two to plumb the wall wet.
The other advantage to all that tieing is that we know the wall is not goiing far in a big wind. I've had 64" walls stay right in place the night before a pour with a forty mile an hour wind roaring. I've also heard of jobs where the blocks were scattered up and down the coast...Thanks for the compliments. Maybe you can bring your chainsaw over for helping on the next staicase.
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if you need me to bring my chainsaw,let me know i'll put the fine tooth chain on.lol actually the icf i did was where that came from.when the job started there was no elec. so the whole time the walls were being set [went 16' in 2 pours]the chainsaw was the tool. then during the finishing stage for some reason no one could measure that day. so at lunch at i went and got the chainsaw and made the comment if i was going to hack the trim i would see if the chainsaw would work. i stuck 3 pcs of trim on a door with it and left it for a few days.so anytime there is a miscut now someone says" get the chainsaw"hand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
I know they recommend needing to tie to each other only at corners, but there are several advantages to tieing every block to it's neighbor side to and up/down and to the rebar web.
We've come to the same conclusion, especially with the new vertical wire clips and zip ties that are quick to put in.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Nice picts.
Am working on one right now that we elevated 12' and put a new block wall fondation in, as it's in a flood plain. Built the stairs just this week. It had been flooded three times in less than two years and when you cut the old flooring and joists out, you can smell the Delaware River spores. It's been interesting I guess, but I'll be glad when this one is done. Last flood they had 42" of water in their living room.
Every time I have crossed the Delaware river bridge, I smell chemical smell. I'ts a wonder that river doesn't burn up!;)
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Hmmmm, didn't know the river was that polluted. You probably cross down near Wilmington after it flows through the cities. I'm above there just across from Trenton.
They had 42" of water in the house...So they raise it 12" ???Is someone there bad at math ?;o)
i am trying to be normal, i really am, but until i get there at least i have breaktime. ~segundo
Opps...did I say 12"? I meant 12'I'm not that great at Trig but I'm good with figures.
You said it right. Luka has been crying me a river lately and causing floods so his eyes are blurry;)
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As Piffin said, you said it right.It was my that read it wrong.My bad. Sorry.Yeesh, I don't think glasses would have saved me that time...12 feet ! Wow !
i am trying to be normal, i really am, but until i get there at least i have breaktime. ~segundo
I can't answer for Piffin (Woulden't even dare to think about it...8>) ) but I'm betting that all of us in old house work can't help but do it - otherwise, with all the concommitant hassles, why not build new?
;)Good answer!
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Man, I'm havin' a ball watchin' this.
Learnin' stuff, even.
Forrest - photo thread sucker
Piffin,Thanx again for this post. It beats the heck out of 'How to wire a three-way switch'.In post 43, how do you tie in the new walls to that existing stone?
Does the batch plant charge extra for an island delivery?Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
The stone is so irregular that the shape of the crete when cured will hold with no steel drilled into the stone.Charges get added for waiting time at the ferry, and for the ferry tickets themselves. For the pumper and two trucks of cree, I have tickets paid totalling about $280 round trip waiting at the ticket booth for the drivers to pick up. Added to that, I have reservations at five bucks per truck per day per trip totalling about $40 wasted each time I have to change to another day.
In winter, there is extra charge for hot water and for calcium.And - I always tip my drivers when they behave, and chip in if needed with a smile on. About $20 each. The ones that grumble about weather and wages, do as little as they can get away with, and hurry off to the ferry before we can get washed up get a wave off instead.
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Can you request certain drivers?"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
no, but they can let the dispatcher know they are "willing" to go to the island or more specificly back to my job.
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paul... what brand are the icf's .. are they PolySteel ?
are they PerformGuard eps ?.... where did they come from
looks nice and cozy inside the new foundationMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I asked about the borate treatments and one story I was given was that additives like that make the polystyrene slightly less strong as the reason for not using it in ICFs. So we go back to chemical treatment after the fact. These are called Builder block
http://www.buildblock.com/
I looked at Ecoblock tooThese were most available to me and most all I compared wire similar pricing. For years I used just AARX blocks - I think these seem a slight bit less dense, but the snap connections work much better than the AARX do, damage less with handling and do not trap moisture as easy to freeze and cause headaches.Since you mentioned the polysteel for comparison, I think they are prety good too, except that I'm less sure of them for proximity to salt water since they use the galvanized steel web and screw plate instead of the composite material. ( Now there's a big change in construction materials from thirty years ago when we'd have turn up our noses at anything plastic in favour of the steel)For others - here are some shots of the polysteel product as shown by Mike Guertin and son at a trade show a couple years ago. I gotta add to edit my previous comment. I'm pretty sure Mike handles Polysteel, but these shown do not have steel webs anymor...
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Hey Paul, as others have said, thanks for taking time to document this. I've been fascinated by ICF's since I first saw them, but haven't found a place to use them yet. What brand of ICF are you using? My DW is cooking up an addition in her mind and I'm determined to use them if I expand the basement.http://logancustomcopper.com
http://grantlogan.net/
It's like the whole world's walking pretty and you can't find no room to move. - the Boss
I married my cousin in Arkansas - I married two more when I got to Utah. - the Gourds
http://www.buildblock.com/I may someday soon build us a new house laid out all on one floor - for unifversal access as we get older - ranch style and do it all in ICFs. I can't think of a better way to build.
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some people would say that's an orb. busta :0)"It ain't da seafood dat makes ya fat anyway -- it's da batta!"
Now here's an orb!No, there is no moon, no streetlight, no normal explanation
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I like your thread and pictures, i have done a fewbut not any 2 storys, I would like to ask you how this pencils out as far as building a new home, Around here the land costs so much there takeing old homes down,
I couldn't do that comparison accurately, because I specialize in renovation and restoration. I've only built two totally new ones in the past fifteen years.A foundation on an old one is obviously more expensive than digging on virgin soil
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