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jet pump 4 sprinklers?

splintergroupie | Posted in General Discussion on June 14, 2008 07:24am

I was given a Myers 1/2 HP deep-well jet pump, model number MJ50D. My understanding is that it’s meant to pump water from deep wells, but i’m trying to determine if i can use it to pump from a pond to my underground sprinklers.

The largest sprinkler zone is 5 sprinkler heads at 2.5 gpm. The pond sits about level with the sprinklers. I’d like to have about 50 psi.. I can’t find any charts to see if this will work using this pump and i’m not confident i understand things well enough yet to figure it on my own.

Pics as it came to me. The gizmo on the suction side seems like it’s just connecting the two ports….? I haven’t found anything like that on the Net.

Any suggestions are welcome. I understand i need a foot valve. Relay from the timer…anything else?

View Image

View Image


Edited 6/14/2008 12:30 am by splintergroupie

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Replies

  1. PatchogPhil | Jun 14, 2008 08:57am | #1

    You can try posting your question here:

    http://www.lawnsite.com/forumdisplay.php?f=16

     

    There are a couple good irrigation and pump experts there who can help.  It might start a Holy War from the differing camps on what type of pump to use.  But,  Breaktime has a few arguments every now and then so it won't seem too harsh to you!

     

     

     

    Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?

    1. splintergroupie | Jun 14, 2008 09:16am | #2

      Thanks for the link. I spent several hours on the Net today trying to suss this out and never saw that site.

  2. dovetail97128 | Jun 14, 2008 11:09am | #3

    Just looking at th epics on that site I would guess you have an HJ50D. (Is it possible they were renamed?)
    At any rate there is a chart for the HJ pumps that lists an HJ50D pump with depths, flow rate etc on that site.

    In Blue print on the HJ page, to the right of the pics.
    "View deep well Hj series selection table" opens a pop up screen with the table .
    http://www.femyers.com/products/watersystems/jet%20well/hj_deep_chart.html

    We used to use a similar pump, 1 hp., suction side was maybe 12' elevation, pressure side another 35-40' elevation. Ran 1 rain bird great , 2 darn well, 3 not a good deal.
    However I believe that there are different orifices for the sprinkler heads available , reduce flow/volume at the heads and increase pressure.

    Thinking you need a pressure switch as well, maybe not though if you are just going to control the pump with an electrical switch as opposed a water valve.

    They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.



    Edited 6/14/2008 4:25 am by dovetail97128

    1. splintergroupie | Jun 14, 2008 05:26pm | #6

      You're right, that's a typo. Correct link, though!I looked at that table, but the right side of it, the area under
      "Capacity in U.S. Gallons per Minute
      Distance to Low Water Level in Feet"
      has me baffled. The way it's set up, i'd think the larger numbers (30-40-60-etc.) refer to GPM, but that would mean the smaller numbers (10.5-9.5-8-6-etc) refer Distance to Low Water Level, a measurement i haven't encountered elsewhere, unless that't the same as the term "head". Since this is supposed to be a DEEP Well Series, it didn't make sense, the small number seemed to not 'fit'. I see some other pumps have graphs and i'm under the illusion, anyway, that i understand those. I haven't found one for this guy.

      1. User avater
        BillHartmann | Jun 14, 2008 05:39pm | #8

        No, you have it backwards.The big numbers is the distance that it has to lift the water. The small numbers are the GPM. It is not clear at what discharge pressure, but I think that it is 22 psi.But if you look at the other link with the PDF file it has it shown setup for a shallow well (or pond) pump.First look at the Lift, The elevation between the water level and the pump. Then the pressure that you want. Then read the flow that it whill substain at that pressure. Note that it is in gallons per hour, not GPM..
        .
        A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

        1. splintergroupie | Jun 14, 2008 06:08pm | #11

          Thanks for setting me straight on the numbers on that chart. The table on the HJ was unusable for my purposes, i guess. Now i have this flat spot where i've been slamming my head on that wall... Looking at the convertible pump pdf that Mark linked, i can see that the figures are similar to what i was just told by the pump guys i called. The chart shows 600 GPH (or 10 GPM) at 50 psi with 5' lift - a bit more pressure than they opined. There might be enough of a fudge in the lift and pressure to get my fifth sprinkler out of that...In any case, it should work! Nice ~$300 bonus to my day not to have to buy another pump!Now if that teenager would just show up to did that hole for me where the pond goes...

          1. PatchogPhil | Jun 14, 2008 06:48pm | #17

            You *can* run the 5 sprinklers with 10 GPM,  but you will have to change the nozzles to smaller ones.  And then run the sprinklers a little bit longer time.

            Depending on the sprinklers that you currtently have (what are they BTW?),  you can just unscrew the tops and replace the insides with "MP Rotators"  http://www.mprotator.com/products/products.html  now made by Hunter.  They have different spray patterns and low GPM needs; and they are perfect for this kind of situation of low available GPM.

              

            Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?

          2. splintergroupie | Jun 14, 2008 10:10pm | #22

            I haven't settled on the exact sprinklers/rotors i'm using. I picked up sets of three different kinds to install on separate zones to test them against each other. They are:

            Rainbird Mini-Paw/LG-3  "Ideal for Low Water Flow Conditions"

            Rainbird 32SA  and Orbit Saturn III - supposedly similar rotors with adj. patterns and distance of throw, but i wanted to see which brand performed better.

            My sprinklers are about 30' from one another, so i couldn't see trying anything but rotors, but if you have advice on that, i'm all ears. I haven't see the Hunter brand that i recall, but i'll look more carefully next time i'm in town. The "real" plumbing supply outlet carries Rainbird and the box stores have Rainbird and Orbits.

             

          3. User avater
            BillHartmann | Jun 14, 2008 07:37pm | #19

            The lawn sprinker heads that I have seen are usually speced down to 30 psi. And as mentioned you might be able to change nozzles. My guess is that there is not any margin in those curves and you will have some drop from the lines and maybe elevation changes. If you can got a 2 gpm nozzle and run it a little longer that it will work better.One the plugs. I suspect that the lowest one if for draining. I have one in that position, but it comes with a valve like is used on the drain on a car radiator.But priming though a 1/4" plug hole is a PIA. Come off the top and put in a 2 tee's and a couple of nipples. Off the top put in a plug (1" or whatever size the discharge is. And off the size of one tee a local valve. Makes it nice for testing and during priming. Then off the fist tee make the connection to your supply line. Would not hurt to have a shutoff vavle there if there is not anyother place.I don't have a foot vavle on mine, but it will probably make life simipler for you. I have mine setup with a pressure tank and switch and use it to run hoses. So if there is a tiny leak at the internal checkvalve the tank keeps it primed.And the intake line is critical. Any tiny leak on it and the pump won't suck water and prime. My suction line is on a floating dock so I have some flexable pipe and threaded and clamped connectors.And you definately need some kind of strainer/filter on it.I have a gross strainer as the intake. But I have had problems with alge or "something" getting in and I have hose washer with a screen on it that I have to flush out every once and a while. I don't remember if this is the link that someone else posted, but it is a good resource, even if you have to pay to get the details.http://www.irrigationtutorials.com/.
            .
            A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

          4. User avater
            BillHartmann | Jun 14, 2008 07:38pm | #20

            PS you also want to have a pressure gauge. That can go into one of the small holes..
            .
            A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

          5. splintergroupie | Jun 14, 2008 10:27pm | #25

            In the installation manual DT posted they show a discharge T and pressure guage. I have a pressure guage i can liberate from its other testing fittings. 

          6. splintergroupie | Jun 14, 2008 10:25pm | #24

            Yes, those are the tutorials i was immersed in yesterday that i mentioned to Dovetail just now.

            I need to keep the irrigation system separate from the house supply and pressure tank and all because i found that using the irrigation system with the solenoids opening and closing made sand slough in the well. Unfortunately, the well was ended in a strata of fine ash and sand, which the well digger had been pushing through for lotsa feet and figured he better stop before he went past the water, is by guess.

            I don't have trouble with normal usage or with allowing it to run at will, but stopping and starting with the valves just played havoc, clogging my filter completely within a couple hours. I've tried it three different years now, thinking perhaps the well had cleared each time...but no joy. So i'm going to pump into a pond that i'm digging today (without the boy who was supposed to show at 10 a.m......grrr....)

            I figure a 1000 gal pond will cover my watering needs as a reservoir, as it will be filling at 10 GPM, my well pump's rating, as it is being pumped out perhaps a bit more quickly than it is filled. I figure i'll need one of those piggyback float switches as a fail-safe if it pumps the pond dry or something happens to the intake, but i shouldn't have to think about algae if i'm changing the water each day.  

             

             

          7. User avater
            bobl | Jun 16, 2008 04:41pm | #40

            curious, what are you lining your pond with? 

            bobl          Volo, non valeo

            Baloney detecter    WFR

            "But when you're a kibbutzer and have no responsibility to decide the facts and apply the law, you can reach any conclusion you want because it doesn't matter." SHG

          8. splintergroupie | Jun 16, 2008 05:03pm | #44

            Poly stock tank.

            Behlen makes one 2'-4" high, 4" taller on a 9' D. footprint than other stock tanks. It gets me pretty close to a 1000 gallons, which i figured would be the amount i needed in reserve with the well pump pumping into the pond as i pump out of it for sprinkling.

            I like the look of  galvanized better, but this one appears that it will last longer, esp sitting within the ground. I can get this one local for $260....$90 less than anywhere else i looked. I'm off to get it now...in my Toyota....should be interesting.   

  3. dovetail97128 | Jun 14, 2008 11:20am | #4

    It also appears to me as if the deep well "jet" is not what that funny looking gizmo is. The "deep well jet " on ours was much taller and had a plastic venturi inside it.
    Here is a link of one in action.
    http://www.animatedsoftware.com/pumpglos/jet_pump.htm

    I think you have a shallow well pump there. Difference is that a deep well has two pipes connecting to the venturi which is located at the bottom of the well.

    Won't matter to you , just pointing it out.

    They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
    1. splintergroupie | Jun 14, 2008 05:32pm | #7

      This pump is indeed the HJ50D in the link i posted to start, with the two holes, but the "gizmo" added onto the suction side is something i haven't been able to find listed separately. Maybe that's the "convertible" part?I feel so extraordinarily blonde...

  4. User avater
    MarkH | Jun 14, 2008 02:04pm | #5

    I think you have a convertible jet pump, set up for a shallow well. You need a footvalve for it to work. It should work ok as is. Make sure the foot valve is not going to clog in mud. I would call tech service at Myers to confirm.

    It's probably very similar to this one. http://www.femyers.com/pdf/pdf.ws/ws%20brochure/k3552-50.pdf

    1. User avater
      BillHartmann | Jun 14, 2008 05:43pm | #9

      FWIW I have had 2 similar sears pumps. One was a covertable, setup with a shallow well adapter. The other was built as a shallow well pump. Both where plastic.They can with a builtin checkvalve in the "jet". Never needed a foot valve, but I was only lift a couple of feet.But this year when I went to prime it would not prime. But then we have had 6 weeks of rain and not check what the problem is. I think that it might be section of flexable swiming pool line that I have on the intake..
      .
      A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

    2. splintergroupie | Jun 14, 2008 06:00pm | #10

      The series is the HJ (sorry about the typo... the link was good). I just got lucky: I called to leave a message with the pump guys i know and found them working on a Saturday. The fellow who answered didn't seem to know much about the "gizmo" on the suction side that necks the two holes on the jet pump into one, but he consulted with a more experienced guy who said it should produce about 10 GPM at 40 PSI (no lift to consider, since pond is at the mid-point or above the zones). I can live with that if i cap off one sprinkler on one zone.No one could tell me what the "gizmo" was called, so i felt very slightly vindicated and will buy my foot valve and relay start (from the timer) from them. Yay!

      1. User avater
        MarkH | Jun 14, 2008 06:15pm | #12

        I only know a little about pumps, but I assumed it was a shallow well converter. Maximum lift is about 25 feet on them, but it is simpler and cheaper to hook up, since there is only one pipe. If you don't have a foot valve, you will get less flow and the pump can lose its prime.

        1. splintergroupie | Jun 14, 2008 06:32pm | #14

          I'll unbolt the gizmo later and see if it contains a check valve. There are two plugs to fill it with priming water, it seems: one on the gizmo itself and another near the exiting-water side. Oddly...if this were oriented vertically over a well as a jet pump, i don't see how the plug near the exit side could be filled to prime it...? I see a trip to town on a 'school' day to put this in front of someone.

          1. dovetail97128 | Jun 16, 2008 06:10am | #31

            I wanted to comment on this part of your post. "There are two plugs to fill it with priming water, it seems: one on the gizmo itself and another near the exiting-water side." If those are small (3/8") plugs they are reallu for bleeding out trapped air as well as priming.
            One thing I did < and other here have recomended is "T" off the pressure line right near the pump for a priming stand pipe.
            ALWAYS put fresh sealant on the cap of the priming standpipe and the two bleed valves. Fighting a rusted cap or plug come spring is a PITA.
            I also transitioned my prime pipe to the biggest diameter I could get a fitting to allow. (1/2" to say 1"x 6" or 1 1/4" x 6") Do that right at the tee and it makes it easy to drop a funnel into the pipe and use a 5 gallon bucket to fill the funnel and prime the system..
            They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.

          2. splintergroupie | Jun 16, 2008 06:30am | #32

            I see now from McPlumb's pics that the plug near the water exit is to pressurize the pressure switch. There is also one of the same size on the shallow well ejector gizmo.I can't see that priming will pose a problem since i have the hose from the house well right there.

      2. junkhound | Jun 14, 2008 06:32pm | #13

        what the "gizmo" was called

        Pretty much what Bill and Mark have said.

        Good to have a foot valve, even thought the 'gizmo' is a spring loaded check valve on all the pumps like that I have, it allows the pump to work without a foot valve for a foot or so of suction.

        Back when I wuz really poor, made foot valves with a piece of inner tube as a flapper inside pieces of pipe, lots easier to buy one.

        I'll assume the foot vavlve you are buying has a screen, it no you defietely need a screen or you will often jam the valve open and loose prime.

         

        1. splintergroupie | Jun 14, 2008 06:37pm | #15

          Ah, we posted at the same time!Thanks for confirming the check valve. I'm going to actually be pumping out of a pond-cistern, not pond-marsh, so it should be pretty clean, but a foot valve is cheap insurance for both chunks and holding prime, i figure. The fellow i spoke with this morning recommended a finer filter between pump and sprinkler to protect the sprinklers from grit, instead of on the intake where, if it somehow cloggged, the pump could run dry and burn up.Gotta run...kid showing up to work...

          1. dovetail97128 | Jun 14, 2008 07:29pm | #18

            Take a look at this site, it explains the different "head" pressures http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/ageng/irrigate/ae1057w.htm
            They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.

          2. splintergroupie | Jun 14, 2008 10:14pm | #23

            Thanks for that, now bookmarked. I'd read a site by a fellow named Stryker about such things, but it can't hurt to read two approaches to get a better understanding.

      3. dovetail97128 | Jun 14, 2008 06:44pm | #16

        "Gizmo" is a "Shallow Well Ejector" It is shown on the downloadable installation Pdf for the shallow well pump. Page 7 .
        http://www.femyers.com/pdf/pdf.ws/ws%20manual/13800a71.pdf The system I had was shown on page 9 of the same PDF
        They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.

        1. splintergroupie | Jun 14, 2008 10:00pm | #21

          Bless you. I didn't find that in all my time poking about and it will be extremely useful.

  5. McPlumb | Jun 16, 2008 03:37am | #26

    As was mentioned, the pump is a convertible deep well jet pump, the shallow well adapter [ gizmo ] has been added to the front of the pump. I don't see a check valve on this pump, if you pour water into the top of the pump and it runs out the front, there is no check valve.

    Don't take this apart unless you have a gasket to put it back together.

    This pump should work for your application, but there are some modifications needed.

    If you are going to set the system up so it runs off a timer, you will need a pressure switch, and a pressure tank. The pressure switch can be mounted on the pump, or the pressure tank tee.

    On the side of pump the electric comes out of the lower threaded plug is where the pipe is attached that goes to the pressure switch.

    A tee on top of the pump makes the pump easier to prime, a reducer bushing with a gauge in it can be removed to prime the pump.

    I have attached some pic's to help you visualize what you need.

    1. dovetail97128 | Jun 16, 2008 04:17am | #27

      Curios why the pressure tank is needed if run on a timer. I use a deep well version quite often (same pump as I used to use for irrigation) that I only use a shut off valve on. I will take it to some of my rural job sites to provide water for construction out of local streams or ponds.
      That is how I used it for irrigation before as well. It does have a pressure switch on it but no tank
      They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.

      1. splintergroupie | Jun 16, 2008 05:37am | #29

        LOL! I started replying to McPlumb's before you posted, and only now figured out what i needed to ask so i could hit the "post" button. If YOU are asking, it no longer seems like the dumb question i thought i had.

        1. dovetail97128 | Jun 16, 2008 05:59am | #30

          Your question was much better written though!

          They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.

      2. McPlumb | Jun 16, 2008 03:52pm | #36

        From what I read in her post she talked of an automated system, that pretty much controled itself. To my way of thinking the timer would control a solenoid valveon the pressure side of the system, when the pressure dropped the switch would kick the pump on.

        1. dovetail97128 | Jun 16, 2008 04:13pm | #38

          ( ) That sound was the light bulb going on. Now I understand what you are aiming at and why.
          They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.

        2. User avater
          BossHog | Jun 16, 2008 04:38pm | #39

          My understanding of what she wanted was that the pump would simply be on a timer. Like once a day it would just kick on for a couple of hours and run the sprinklers.That's why she was questioning the need for a pressure switch and tank.
          If you think pushing 40 is hard, wait till you start dragging it

    2. splintergroupie | Jun 16, 2008 05:34am | #28

      WOW! Thanks for all that! I poured water in the top and it ran out the front, so the check/foot valve stays on the list. Perhaps this next question will prove i'm not qualified to own a pipe wrench, but why do i need a pressure tank and switch if it draws from a cistern/pond? My understanding of a pressure switch is it tells the pump to quit already so you don't blow up your lines or burn up your pump when all the faucets are closed. Shouldn't this pump run full-bore and just keep up with the four or five sprinklers? If the pump comes on with the timer, the timer has already opened the valve to the sprinklers, right? Only reason i could see is if a valve got stuck when the timer told the pump to come on...is that it? My understanding of a pressure tank is to keep the pump from cycling every single time there's a call for water. Since all the capacity of the pump will be needed to run the sprinklers, as opposed to dribbles of household use, what use is the pressure tank serving?Whatever i need i'll get; i just want to understand it, too, since i'll be maintaining the system.

      1. User avater
        BillHartmann | Jun 16, 2008 07:41am | #33

        "My understanding of a pressure switch is it tells the pump to quit already so you don't blow up your lines or burn up your pump when all the faucets are closed. Shouldn't this pump run full-bore and just keep up with the four or five sprinklers?"Not really the pump can't develope enough pressure.Here is a generic curve for a centrifical pump. I have not seen one for a jet pump, but it is basically a centrifical pump with the jet adapater.http://www.cheresources.com/centrifugalpumps5.shtmlthe pump curve is the data that is in the manual give the pressure develped at different flow rates.The curve is fairly low slope until you get to a high flow rate where the pressure rapidly drops off.http://www.gouldspumps.com/cpf_0009.html figure 8 shows more complete pump curve. Note multiple lines are for different sized impellers.System curve is the amount of flow vs pressure in your lines and nozzles. Where the 2 curves cross is the pressure and flow that you will have in the system. for an application like this you don't try and compute all of that.But rather look the spray head specs and pumps specs and find some point that nearly matches.The BHP curve is the amount of power that the motor has to deliver.With a dead headed pump it is realatively low. However on LARGE pump continously running deadheaded can cause the water to boil and overheat and damage the bearings and seals.A more common problem is the pump running without any head; ie open flow. Then the power demand goes up and can overload the motor.A pump like yours it is not a problem. But if you had a submergable pump that is designed for high pressure as would be need for one down a several hundred foot well and you through it in a lake and just lever the discharge open it could overload the motor..
        .
        A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

        1. splintergroupie | Jun 16, 2008 08:25am | #34

          SG: "My understanding of a pressure switch is it tells the pump to quit already so you don't blow up your lines or burn up your pump when all the faucets are closed. Shouldn't this pump run full-bore and just keep up with the four or five sprinklers?"BH: Not really the pump can't develope enough pressure.I can't tell if you are saying the pump won't develop enough pressure to burst lines, burn up, or run the sprinklers.?If this pump does 10GPM minimum, which earlier investigation said it should do, it should be equally matched to the total GPM i've figured per zone at 10 GPM. I haven't figured friction losses (and i'm not likely to do so, lol...), but there's a fudge factor in that i can put in a smaller nozzle in the sprinkler heads.So...bottom line...switch or no switch? Pressure tank or no pressure tank?

          1. User avater
            BossHog | Jun 16, 2008 04:00pm | #37

            I got to thinking about this, and your reluctance to drop a bunch of money on a pressure tank.In the basement at the farm we used to have a big vertical tank that was our "pressure tank". It was metal, maybe 34" in diameter and 6' tall. As long as there was air in part of the tank it served as a buffer to the pump. I was just thinking that if you could rig up something like that )with a tank you could hopefully pick up cheap) it might serve the same purpose. With a metal tank you would likely get some rust in the water. But your filter should take care of that. And a little discoloration would be no big deal since this isn't drinking water.I'd definitely spring for a pressure switch no matter what. One thing they do that you might not have thought of is cut the pump off if there's no pressure. So if your pump lost prime for some reason it wouldn't just run endlessly when it wasn't pumping anything.
            Q: What's the difference between government bonds and men?
            A: Bonds mature.

          2. splintergroupie | Jun 16, 2008 04:57pm | #42

            If i need to get a pressure tank, i'll buy a proper one, ot rusted. I really need this system to run when i'm not babysitting it for clogging or prime or any other details.

          3. User avater
            BossHog | Jun 16, 2008 05:00pm | #43

            What the hell are YOU doing out of bed so early ???(-:
            'Tis a brave man who wears the kilt in January. [Scottish saying]

          4. splintergroupie | Jun 16, 2008 06:15pm | #45

            I meant to get the last poly tank in stock at the feed store or die tryin!

            I just got back from there. The fellow who sold it to me looked at my Toyota, looked at my tubafors, clamps, tie-downs, shackles, chains, bailing twine, shoelaces, bubble gum, and double-sided sticky-tape and said they could send it to me on their 1-ton truck.

            "How much for that service?" i asked. "We'll just do it..." I slipped him $25 for gas, drew him a map. They'll be here in a couple of hours. 

            Sometimes Life hands you a big, chilly glass of lemonade, ready-made. Almost makes setting the alarm clock worth it...

          5. dovetail97128 | Jun 16, 2008 06:24pm | #46

            Just be sitting in the lawn chair when they arrive, Umbrella cocked just right to block the sun from hitting you , sipping the lemonade and indicate the location of the hole when they arrive. Might help to have a couple of extra glasses and the cold pitcher of lemonade on the little table next to you as an added incentive for the help.
            ;-)
            They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.

          6. splintergroupie | Jun 16, 2008 11:19pm | #47

            Tank just arrived and we did a trial fit. The hole's too small, so the Teenager and i will finesse it after lunch. I only saw the tank upside-down in the feed store yard, next to a lot of other big tanks. Now it's right-side-up and sitting next to my house, it looks GIGANTUOUS! Now i'm a little alarmed thinking about the matching rubber duck i ordered...

            I had the Teenager digging up posts and mixing concrete today to make larger footings where the deck has subsided a bit in the sandy soil. I was Imparting Mortar Lore and he mostly liked running the hose, LOL.  Ah, well....we got a job done this morning that i've been putting off only about six years.

          7. User avater
            BillHartmann | Jun 17, 2008 04:45am | #48

            "I can't tell if you are saying the pump won't develop enough pressure to burst lines, burn up,"Dat!"If this pump does 10GPM minimum, which earlier investigation said it should do, it should be equally matched to the total GPM i've figured per zone at 10 GPM."I believe that it is more like nominal, not minimal.Here are your optionscontrolled by timer relay - no tank, no presure switch.Simple. Pump can loose prime if you have a small leak on the inlet side.Need to override timer when priming and testing.Controlled with pressure switch and pressure tank. No connection with timer. Can be used with hose or other manual devices if you want. If you have a minor leak then it will start and refill.But if you have a large leak or break it will spew water until some one notices it. DAMHIKIT.If you go with the pressure tank then get a bladder tank, not a galvanized one.And you want the tank near the pressure switch. Either both at the pump or both at some other point such as where the water is being used.BH mention having a pressure switch to shut it off it doesn build pressure.Common well pressure switches won't do that. They close (turn on the pump) at low pressure. The do make one with lower pressure lockout. Use on wells that might run dry. They need to be manaully reset and must be used with a pressure tank.There are way to cut off a system using a timer relay instead of a pressure system, but it requires a different kind of rpessure switch and some time delay relay, reset switch, etc."ONE OF THESE DAYS" I want to put a lawn irrigation system on my pump, but since I have the pressure tank and switch and use it with a hose also I will just keep the pressure system when I add the irrigation system..
            .
            A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

          8. splintergroupie | Jun 17, 2008 06:54am | #50

            I think for my purposes that using the timer relay is the best approach. McPlumb's note that sprinklers below the pump can siphon the prime water out of the pump gives me some concern; however, the valves themselves are located between pump and sprinkler, so wouldn't they act sorta like a check valve between the sprinklers and the pump?

            I'll be careful not to have any leaks on the intake side and to buy a decent foot valve and screen for it.

            Good luck with your irrigation system. Maybe get someone to install it with those machines!  If i hadn't put so much sweat into burying the damn thing - a ditchwitch provides a very low Happiness Quotient - i'd probably have been happier with a BA rotor i moved occasionally. But...iI have visions of waking up to a yard that isn't a mass of drip lines and hoses...

      2. McPlumb | Jun 16, 2008 03:40pm | #35

        If the line to the sprinklers is open, no control valve on it, and the sprinklers are lower in elavation than the pump, it may cause the pump to lose prime when the timer turns the pump off. When the timer turns the pump back on it may not pump, or in the worst case run the pump dry and damage it.

        There is another way to run this system, but it does not include any automation.

        On the top of the pump set it up as in the picture, coming out of the valve hook a garden hose and place the hose so it dumps water back into the pond you are pumping out of.

        Coming out of the tee before the valve hookup your irrigation system. Prime the pump,open the valve a small amount, watch the pressure gauge. When the system is up and running use the valve to control the pressure on the gauge.  If the pump is able to produce enough pressure and volume to run the system,your good to go. If the pump produces to much pressure open the valve a little more to maintain the pressure level that work best for you.  This will require more time to mess with on your part, but will keep cost down, and proffits high :<]

        1. splintergroupie | Jun 16, 2008 04:55pm | #41

          This is the kind of relay i was hoping to use. I thought it would simply turn the pump on when the timer said to open the valves...? Am i mistaken?

          View Image

          ORBIT 57009 PUMP START RELAY

          Plastic, Resistant

          mfg by: ORBIT UNDERGROUND PUMP START RELAY Works with most 24 volt timers Automatically activates pump for watering Weather-resistant, plastic case - indoor/outdoor mount Safe to install and operate Covered wiring compartment for safety Simple, trouble free design 

           

          They're about $50. (affordable, in other words <g>)

          I just saw your reply and need to study it, but i have to go pick up a pond now. I'll check back later in the day.

          1. McPlumb | Jun 17, 2008 06:42am | #49

            Questions, questions, lets start with this one

            Will you be using a suction line put in from the top of the polypond?

            Or does the polypond have an outlet on the side you can plumb to?

            If there is a side discharge and the pump sat a little lower than the tank, the pump would not need priming, makes things simpler. Route your spouting into the polypond? But you still would run the risk of water flowing through the pump and bleeding out the sprinklers.

            If the system could be set up so the timer turned on the pump relay, and opened a solenoid valve.

            With hardly no lift the pump may move way more than 10gpm.

            If you get time post a pic of polypond showing relative elavation of sprinkler heads.

            Sounds like your headed in the right direction.

          2. splintergroupie | Jun 17, 2008 07:22am | #51

            Will you be using a suction line put in from the top of the polypond?

            Or does the polypond have an outlet on the side you can plumb to?

            There is a threaded hole with a plug near the bottom of the tank. I faced it toward where the pump will sit and dug out a ditch to it. I didn't have a plan yet for using the plug hole, but i figured if i needed it, i'd be ready, LOL...

            Before that, i was just planning on dropping PVC pipe over the edge. The only way to put the pump lower than the pond would be to dig it down into a 2' pit. Or...i could put it on the other side of the wall, in the basement....i'll think on that.

            I think the way those relays work (i've only just learned they exist, so i may be confused) is that when the 24V. timer thingamee mounted near the valves kicks the valve open, it makes the pump start, too. Bill can hopefully corroborate that idea.

            One other thing you may be able to advise me on: i'm looking for a mechanical shut-off on the fill side. I've seen these kinds of valves and wonder if you have any experience with them. The flow-rate chart in a link from that page shows the 1/2" valve should handle the 16 GPM at 30 PSI.  I've seen the regular stock tank shutoffs and they have a very small orifice/small float>low flow. (The ones with the arm and float look kinda toilet-y.)

            View ImageView Image

            My land is gently sloping, maybe a 5% grade. The pond sits about mid-point in elevation, but three zones are about 75% above the pond, and three zones are about 75% below the pond. I'll see tomorrow if i can get a picture that takes in the area...maybe several...it's about 3/4 acre, is my guesstimate.

            What do you think of my notion in my post to Bill that the sprinkler valves, when shut down by the timer, act like check valves preventing the prime water from being pulled out of the pump?

          3. McPlumb | Jun 17, 2008 01:40pm | #52

            Yes the zone valves sound like a good way to set it up.

            Suction line dropped in from the top would work fine. 

            Hudson valve looks like just the ticket.

            Now would be a good time to consider how the system will be winterized, and make plans for it as you put the system together.

            I have seen a lot of those cast iron pumps crack in freezing wheather, either drain it completely,not easy to do without unhooking it and if your taking it loose, might as well store it in the basement.

             

          4. splintergroupie | Jun 17, 2008 06:03pm | #53

            I've already had experience blowing the lines with compressed air for winterizing. I just figured on bringing the pump indoors after draining the pond the last time. I forgot and left my pressure washer outdoors one year...learned that lesson, LOL!Thanks for the help and the pictures!

          5. User avater
            bobl | Jun 17, 2008 09:19pm | #54

            if after you get everything all set up and you find you still have a lot of water in your pond, get 3 water hyicins (sp) for the pond, but make sure you protect your pump inlet from the roots.you can just but the 300 hyicins at the enfd of the summer in the compost pile. (yes I said buy 3)this will help keep algue growth down as it will cover the pond.bought 3 about 3 weeks ago, have about 12 now.they die at about 38F 

            bobl          Volo, non valeo

            Baloney detecter    WFR

            "But when you're a kibbutzer and have no responsibility to decide the facts and apply the law, you can reach any conclusion you want because it doesn't matter." SHG

          6. splintergroupie | Jun 18, 2008 12:11am | #55

            I read a little about hyacinths just now and learned they don't have to be anchored in pots and they have beautiful flowers. Sounds perfect! I hope they tolerate daily water changes. My blind cat nearly took a splash this morning when he stumbled on the edge of the pond where he was used to walking on dirt. He got a snootful of water, but didn't fall in. I tossed in a good-sized piece of foamboard and i have a wire shelf i'm going to add as a ramp in case any of the furkids goes for an unexpected swim. Sobering...

          7. User avater
            bobl | Jun 18, 2008 01:05am | #56

            this was taken 29july, bought 3 or 6inearly june. pond is about 6x16.the water gets filtered about once every 2 hours. 

            bobl          Volo, non valeo

            Baloney detecter    WFR

            "But when you're a kibbutzer and have no responsibility to decide the facts and apply the law, you can reach any conclusion you want because it doesn't matter." SHG

          8. splintergroupie | Jun 18, 2008 09:13am | #58

            Beautiful! I'm not sure if the flowers or the rocks would win if i had to choose one. I want to do a large patio area around my pond with native slates i can pick up about an hour from here. There's not good place to sit outdoors that is at all sheltered or private, so i'm working on a scheme. Pretty fun to be doing this "pretty" stuff, after the last several years of wiring, insulating, pounding posts in the ground... When the stock tank arrived, it looked like it would never fit in the hole i'd dug, which looked pretty small compared to the liner. It's filled with water now and back-filled with sand around the perimeter.

          9. DanT | Jun 18, 2008 02:35am | #57

            I haven't read the whole thread but if you need (or want) a pressure tank I have a good used one at the shop.  Worked great when removed and is probably 5 years old with the manifold and all.  I will bring it to the fest if you wish.  My gift to you.  DanT

          10. splintergroupie | Jun 18, 2008 09:16am | #59

            Thanky, darlin'! I hope not to need the pressure tank set-up, but to use a relay from the 24v. valve timers to start the pump. I'll know by Fest time if that will work or not, and i'll let you know. Very thoughtful and generous of you!

            Edited 6/18/2008 2:16 am by splintergroupie

          11. User avater
            bobl | Jul 09, 2008 05:16pm | #60

            OK it's been 3 weekshow's it workingdraining the pondbuy the hyacinths? 

            bobl          Volo, non valeo

            Baloney detecter    WFR

            "But when you're a kibbutzer and have no responsibility to decide the facts and apply the law, you can reach any conclusion you want because it doesn't matter." SHG

          12. splintergroupie | Jul 09, 2008 06:30pm | #61

            I got side-tracked with finishing my kitchen and building fence and installing stairs! Damn ADD...lol..

            I also haven't been able to find the float valve locally that i need for the 'fill' side of the equation, so i'll have to break down and order that. All the local sources have float valves made to just re-fill a stock tank about as fast as the animals might drink, but i need one that will fill at the 10 gal/minute rate.

            I bought a 1" foot valve...and now i'm wondering if i should have gone with the larger size for less resistance.

            So...i'm still in procurement and research stage. When i get it together, i'll ping you!

          13. User avater
            bobl | Jul 09, 2008 06:51pm | #62

            I've done a little pipe sizing when we built our pond system.I don't think 1" is too small for 600gphI had a 3300 gph pump that came with a 1 1/4" outletI used 1 1/2" pipe but think I went too big.was going 30' with a 15' head with no problem so think a smaller pipe would have sufficed. 

            bobl          Volo, non valeo

            Baloney detecter    WFR

            "But when you're a kibbutzer and have no responsibility to decide the facts and apply the law, you can reach any conclusion you want because it doesn't matter." SHG

          14. splintergroupie | Jul 09, 2008 07:59pm | #63

            Thanks for that reassurance; i'll definitely try this one first before obsessing about getting the larger one. Frankly, i'm a little too lazy to start figuring all my fittings and such to calculate this more or less exactly; that's a little too close to engineering for my artsy-fartsy soul. <G>

            I probably won't get back to this before returning from Peachfest as i have some actual paying work to do between now and then. My very old, blind, deaf dog also fell into the pond yesterday and couldn't lift himself out. Pretty traumatic for him though he wasn't in danger of drowning. I bailed it out yesterday and won't fill it again until i can build a barrier around it for him and the blind cat, too. Nothing's ever as simple as it seems it will be, is it?

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