Jig for cutting floating tenon mortises
Before I attempt to re-invent the wheel here—anybody have a picture—or IDIOT proof directions on building a jig to use with a plunge router for cutting mortises to be used in combo with floating tenons.
Project is a series of 5 very large storm windows– I have been sitting on the materials since November/December’07–and have finally got the willpower together to begin work on this project.
these windows are BIG–4 of them are 54″Wx72″ high-and one is 72″x72″
my plan is to actually make 2 sashes per opening with mating rabbets for the center.
I need to make a jig or jigs that will help me route mortises with a Bosch plunge router
we are talking roughly 60 joints with 2 mortises per joint–makes a LOT of mortising.
I am guessing one of you carpentry experts has long since perfected a system for doing this—and might share a couple pointers for a dumb roofer?
Stephen—wood butchering at home in his basement& garage
Replies
Give me a day or so to get some pictures together. I've got a fixture for making doors that works pretty well.
The answer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fWWz62OxSk
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.
- Fyodor Dostoyevski
There are a number of jigs, but the one most intuitive would be a simple slot the exact size of the tenon mortise in a thick piece of mdf. The mdf could be screwed to the wood, but most times it's easy enough to add a board to the mdf to one side of the wood to be mortised so it's clamped on.
A step up in complexity, but more usable, is a slightly oversized slot so a locating bushing can be added to the router base plate slightly larger than the bit. The mdf can be more shallow allowing increased cutting depth and better chip removeal since the bushing only needs to engage the slot by 1/4" or so.
Another step up in complexity is to use two router edge guides, one to each side of the board to be slotted. Then the router just has to be started and stopped at the correct place which can be careful measurements, or a template to make the stop/start marks. Router stops, such as clamps or even a pair of centered hole drilling guides, can be used instead of pencil marks.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Stephen,
You might try this article in FWW. I assume you can sign up for the free trial and gain access if you don't already have it.
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/Workshop/WorkshopPDF.aspx?id=2802
Here's a video that has a couple of parts on using the jig you're looking for: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4r6L4b2PE8
And I'd be another vote for the Domino and some of the SIPO exterior tenons.
Looked for you in Berwick. Did your son run?
Best,
Steve
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Fat Roman,
We went to Bloomsburg for thanksgiving as usual----but did not go to the race.Kevin was not planning on running---but when he found out it was the 100th running of that race he was kind of bummed-thought that would have been a cool one to run in---but realized he was not fit for it-----he is on a mandatory "no running" 3 week recupe after XC and before the start of indoor track.I had been planning/hoping to get some biking in---but we had some snow on the ground here---and drove through more to get to Bloomsburg---so I didn't even take my bike.- Of course once I got to Bloomsburg-----totally dry, no snow on the ground-and the sun even came out thanksgiving afternoon----which had me P. oed.It's about 20 degrees here this AM-with a modest dusting on the ground---clear skies and may hit high 30's---so I am hoping to get 25-30 miles in this afternoon.
stephen
Tell Kevin that next year is actually the 100th running. They skipped a race in 1917 because of WWI. Not so much because of the war, really, but that the director moved to Buffalo for a bit to run a war effort factory there.Anyway, while this year was the 100th anniversary, he's got time to make the 100th running next year.Hope to see both of you running there in 2009!Best,
Steve'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
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Heres something more palatable that i have that works well on the job has it's limitations, but for your scenario . I think it may work well
http://www.mortisepal.com
The domino is a gem of a tool , but the cost is a choker ,especially now. Good luck
Here's the fixture. It's based on using an edge guide with a plunge router and cuts a consistent mortise in a consistent position. Parts are positioned by different alignment guides and clamped in place for routing; horizontal guide for stiles and vertical for rails. I made this one adjustable for stile width but the same effect can be had by just fastening a ledger in the correct position.
The rail width is laid out on the top surface around a centreline and the mortise is laid out centred between them. That layout is used as a guide to set the stops as shown in the photo. Once the stops are set, no further measurement or layout is required. Router is then moved over to the parts for cutting and the edge guide is reset. All parts are cut either face-in or face out.
Stile mortises are cut by aligning ends of stile to rail width markings, first the left end to the left mark than the right end to the right mark. That centres the stile mortises on rail locations. Rail end mortises are cut using the vertical alignment guide that is screwed in place after removing horizontal alignment guide. Because the mortise is centred on the width of the rail end, all end mortises can be cut from a single setting.
I've cut end mortises on 6 footers before by mounting the fixture on a B&D Workhorse set 7 feet tall and working from another set about three feet high.
Note: Router must be pulled from right to left to keep router edge guide pulled tight against fixture. Take multiple passes about 1/2" deep. Otherwise chips plug up the cut.
Edit: Cut the mortises before cutting the rabbets or cope and stick.
Edited 12/2/2008 12:33 am by observer
There's an hour of my time wasted.
Hey, I liked it!
I don't do much loose tennon joinery, but boy if I did....LOL
Stuff happens here, posters don't/ can't get a reply off , power goes poof! and things like that...but really, good series of pics.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
Thanks.I don't care so much about whether this is useful to him; it's just one of a number of responses to his question, all equally ignored . Where I grew up, it was considered common courtesy to at least acknowledge those who respond to a request for assistance and this is second instance. In this case, I spent an hour digging it out and setting it up to get the pictures.
Well, I'm iclined to give the OP the benefit of the doubt, heck, he may have "read only" access the way this place is going.
I can also relate to the trouble of getting pics up and the work involved. Best is not to have expectations, then you can't be let down..(G)Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
<<...Well, I'm iclined to give the OP the benefit of the doubt...>>Me too. Read only means not being able to post the question. "unread" changing to "read" clears up that question too.We all have our approaches, and I've no intent to change his. Comment is fair though.
observer
If I know Hazlett , he will get back to you.
Your time is never wasted when you post to BT. There could be hundreds of us that will look a your setup and learn something.
I think we have a large number of people who are read only. Hazlett is one who will take the time to reply.
You just never know what is going on in a man's life. I may have time to reply, or I may have to get to work, DW wants me to do something or the kids have a project.
It took me a while to figure out, but posting stuff on BT is a funny animal. You can't let other peoples responses or lack of them get to you. If you want to take the time to teach somebody something (like you did, and thank you) you have to understand sometimes it will be received and sometimes it just goes flat.
Some one will learn from your post. right now I am going to do a search on delta planers and the posters will never know that they helped me . If and when I find the answer.
Rich
I appreciate your support of the OP and really don't have any grudge against him or expectations of any detailed response. It's really not a big deal; as you've suggested, response or lack thereof to a forum post is not the end of the world.
observer,I posted my question on,I believe, monday afternoon.I checked back in Tuesday morning and there were several responses--something like 8 or 9.
I figured I would check back later Tuesday evening or Weds.-morning and reply then---rather then spending all day Tuesday glued to my monitor thanking each individual.there are now some 19 posts in this thread--and if I checked in every 10 minutes to thank every respodient this thread would be 36 or 37 posts long,50% of which would be me thanking someone.although their have been some times I logged on to breaktime at 5:30AM and the next time I looked at a clock it was 9:30: AM--yesterday was not such a day--- I actually went out in the snow to look at a roof situation for the mother of a friend of an other breaktime poster---- I don't use that as an excuse-after all I wasn't planning to resond untill last evening or this morning.Generally I post early A.M.--whats the verdict folks-----48 hours to long a wait????
Stephen
Deal with it any way you like. As I said, I'm not trying to change your approach and I'm not suggesting you check every ten minutes.On the other hand, a quick "thanks folks, keep 'em coming" takes half a minute and acknowledges the responses. It can also indicate whether responders are on the right track with their suggestions and get you better solutions.Last time I offered a suggestion in a question thread posted by you, you didn't respond to anyone's suggestions. This time, I put some effort into suggesting a solution but saw it going the same way after you read all the responses and left without comment. Thus my comment. My apologies if it was premature.
After building dozens of shopmade jigs, I recently shelled out for a Mortise Pal. Well built. Accurate. I like it a lot.
If the set up is all the same, I'd make shop made mdf jigs with a slot to fit a large PC Template Guide big enough to surround a 3/8 or 1/4 inch spiral bit (up twist). It would take me about an hour to make one of these rascals with fence to fit your stock thickness and a second fence for set back from the end. Cost about $2.
For the end grain mortises, you could use the same jig.
For the center rails, it would take a second jig.
That being said, I use a Leigh FMT and love it, but at $800, it is no bargain.
Scooter- I think your suggestion was the closest to what I was originally planning
I re-checked my notes yesterday--the stiles are 73-5/8
I was originally planning a 3 sided box that would capture the whole style
A fence would register on the outside of the box to keep all 3 mortises in-lineand then a start and a stop block at each mortise controlling THOSE dimensionsIt seemed pretty quick and dirty to make for a one-off project---the hardest part seemed to be making sure the fence perfectly centers the bit.......
stephen
Stephen--
This site and Knots are a hoot. Some old duffer wants to to make a shoe shine kit for his son, and asks about appropriate tools, and the tool junkies here steer him to a $4,000 right tilt table saw and the whole Festool product line. Well, I'm sorta kidding but being in the trades for 35 years has taught me there is more than one way to skin a cat. My mdf approach will cost you a couple hours and about $4.
Certainly making a whole box capturing the whole stile would be best. More complicated, but better. You might have to make a protype or two, but the same would be said about any mortise jig too--there would be some wasted wood product for set ups, so use mdf in the exact same size as your stiles for set ups.
The jig I envision would be essentially an "L" shaped form with a fence on the side and slots on top. Get it centered to the stile first.
Centering the bit in the mdf slot is a non issue. With a Porter Cable Template Guide Bushing , they are automatically centered, assuming your Router is cool. Centering the slot over the stile might be a bit fussy.
I'd cut the slots on a sheet of mdf without regard to their position, as long as they are straight. Then work on positioning the fence to make the slots line up with the center of the stile. Having accurate layout lines on your set up scrap and down the center of your slots should get you awfully close. I might be tempted to gluing that up a tad inside of the line, so that if you had to adjust it outwards, a piece of paper or veneer glued onto the inside of the fence would bring the slot to the outside nicely.
Once centered over the stile, then adjust the verticle play with a third piece of mdf. Regards, Scooter "I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow." WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
scooter & john, keep in mind I use a router MAYBE twice a year---which is why I didn'y want to re-invent the wheel on this
but
basically
I have been thinking in terms of a 3 sided U shaped boxthe open end faces up---and the stile fits exactly into the open end of the U the edge of the stile to be mortised and the top of each side of the U are all at the same levelI center the router over the stile/Ubox-and a fence on the router will register with the outside of the boxI assume my centering will not be EXACTLY perfect--however---if I run the fence down one side of the box--and then come back the other way riding the same fence down the opposite side of the fence--the resulting mortice is then centered???????A simple cleat screwed across the top of the U for the start and stop of all 3 mortices quickly and simply positions THAT aspectfor the end grain mortising in the rails- i can use the same jig if I have left appropriate openings in the BOTTOM of the U when I initially construct the box.given my limited experience with the router---this seems supisciously TOO quick,simple,easy to contruct/operate---so what did I miss????StephenBTW-- i have a new additon entring my household today---8 week old lab. retriever pup---so I expect to be pretty busy and it may be a day or so before I check back in,
thanks all,
Stephen
Edited 12/5/2008 6:57 am ET by Hazlett
Which Bsoch do you have? I use the 1613 that has the quick change guides. Do you have any guides for it if it indeed takes guides?
Does the attached pic look like the joint you want to use? And maybe I missed it but what are the dimensions of the rails/stiles/tenon going to be?
>I assume my centering will not be EXACTLY perfect<
You don't have to be perfect, you have to be consistant with the placement of the fixture. Chose all faces you want showing to one side and mark and when you use the guide orient it and clamp it the same face every time so the effects minor variances are minimized by the consistency. Ie. off center to the 'right' on all the pieces means the faces will line up when you slip the tenon in.
The puppy will be good for chewing up all the scraps you're gonna make. ;^) I've been hitting the Humane Societies when I'm near one looking for a 1 yo pup for the girls but so far none have sparked my interest. I also need the young dog to put new life into the other 2.
John----- as far as I can tell it's bosch 1617EVSStiles will be73-5/8" long by 2-1/2 wide.the top and center rail will be 2-1/2"the bottom rail will be 4-1/2these dimensions closely match the rail and stiles on the existing sashes----although I am changing the placement of the middle railStephen
Edited 12/7/2008 7:49 am ET by Hazlett
Stephen
*Do you have any of the guides for that (very good BTW) router? Like these http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-RA1125-7-Piece-Router-Template/dp/B000063XTX
The guides make it very easy to follow patterns/fixtures and are what I use nearly 100%. Cheap speed squares make for good end stops too. If you look in the one pic I attached previoulsy it shows a representative of one of the guides in that kit.
*What's the thickness of the stock you plan on using and the thickenss of the floating tenons (aka the width of the mortise to be cut with the router)?
The attached pic is an example of what I'd do. *If you give the thickness of the the stock you plan to use I can nail down accurate dim.s for you. The fixtures (including the cutout holes) are made mostly on the table saw so getting accurate cuts is relatively easy.
Here's another awesome tool to go with that router. http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-RA1054-Deluxe-Extraction-Adapter/dp/B00005RHPP/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1228656572&sr=1-1Mine is pre-vacuum attachment. And if you really wanted to you could use this one to make all of your mortise cuts. I personally wouldn't though for the quantity of mortises you've got for this project.
John
Edited 12/7/2008 8:40 am ET by john7g
Stock--1-1/16bit is 3/8" spiral upcut. by the way--puppy is sleeping under the desk on my feet right now just the absolutely most beautifull english type lab i have ever laid eyes on. thanks,
stephen
do you have any of the guides?
One of them I think--but at the price listed in the link you supplied--- looks like I really ought to buy the set.
Stephen
Which guide do you have? There is a number stamped on it somewhere.
That kit will enable you to do a lot of stuff with that plunge router, especially the mortices you want to make. Otherwise you'll have to use the outside diameter of the router base as your guide and I've not found them to be very consistent. The edge guide is handy too, but depends on how much router work you can incorporate into your roofing business. ;^)
I have an assortment of guides similar to the ones in the kit and once i found that kit @ Amazon... well it should be here in a few days.
How's the pup?
I think I am gonna go ahead and order that kit tommorrow.
Pup is doing very well-- she pretty much ONLY does her business outside--she is having a bit of trouble adjusting to the crate at night---but she takes it very well for short intervals during the day.I just took her across the street to the park at 12:30---which lead to the first bath of her life at 1:00--she is now napping and drying off in front of a heater.- i also try to take her for a short "ride" in my truck each day to get her used to THAT Basically I am having so much fun I can't stand it-plus my oldest son is coming home from college for over a month this friday---and his girlfriend is coming to spend a couple days as well so I will have both my sons home--one of their girlfriends, my wife,2 dogs and a week or so after THAT my sister-in-law and brother-in-law will come and spend a few days here for XMAS as well---so i am just having a ball!Stephen
You've missed nothing. That would be a good jig. Many mortising jigs are 3 sided boxes like you've described with stops. You would need your router fence to center the bit.
I think my two sided jig is simpler and more accurate but yours will work too.
Jigs are highly personal sometimes throwaway tools for a specific job.
You're right on track.Regards, Scooter "I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow." WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Last week I tried to mortise 5/4 southern yellow pine on a router table with a ½" double fluted straight cutting bit set to cut ½" deep. I guess I was looking for trouble, because as soon as the leading edge of the board touched the bit I got a violent reaction. Good thing I had my hand on the kill switch.
When I stopped shaking, I tried the same thing with poplar and it was like working a bar of soap.
Wood species don’t vary much with saws, but they can be like night and day with routers.
Huplescat,
I am curious to see how things go when I plunge into this 1/4 sawn white oak,LOL
stephen
Stephen
I was watching Stan foster's helicopter being born and I saw this video on mortising jig.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4r6L4b2PE8&NR=1
Rich
Cargin--------
that video was extremely helpfull.quite different than what I had been sort of planning in my mindthe speed of changing from work piece to work piece is even faster than I had planned on.I will have some 20 stiles--with 3 mortices per stile--and some 30 rails--with 2 mortises per rail. the video you showed--- would really speed things along. I had been envisioning for the stiles a single purpose 3 sided box with 2 end stops per mortise---and then something totally different for the rails------this looks longer initaly to build------but faster in the long runAND usefull down the road.Stephen
Wouldn't that be what a Festool Domino does? Check the specs . . . the mortises are wider than the Domino biscuits.
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"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
Gene I am guessing that anything with a Festool name is going to be impracticaly spendy for a tool I may never use again.after all- remember i am just a dumb roofer building Storms for his own home-----not likely this will come up again!On the other hand---wouldn't it be great if that thing was for rent???
stephen
I was thinking Domino too. How much time do you figure you'll be spending making the fixtures? Are they all the same or will there be one-ofs?
Oh, but wait, now I see it as a no-profit job for yourself. :)
Have you come-up with a solution yet? I guess you don't make many fixtures for the roofing aspect of you business, but I make them quite often and never bother to keep any since I can make them pretty quick and they're simple. A baisc drawing from SU is attached. Drawing them 1st allows me to make the 1st mistakes on the PC and visualize fixture and the cut without the router in the way.
Edited 12/4/2008 7:04 am ET by john7g
Buy a Domino kit right when you need it, charge it to your credit card, preferably right at the beginning of your monthly billing cycle, sell it on eBay when you are done, receiving your payout via PayPal.
From observing eBay closing prices of used Festool gear, my guess is that you will net out with a cost of $150 or so for the whole experience. Maybe less.
Take a look on the web at some of the videos of the Domino in use, and decide if the efficiency, accuracy, and type and strength of joint are right for your project, and then compare it to whatever else you might do.
If your time is valuable, Festool might be the ticket. If it is not, and you have plenty of it, you can do it the way they did ultra-fine joinery in colonial America, with brace and bit, saws, chisels and mallets, and patience.
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"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985