JCL has an article in Dec issue about checking framing for
true before the rock guy applies.
My question isnt the topic of the story but about
the wiring you can plainly see in the illustrations.
Can you bundle wiring like that? Talk about 2 cables
under one staple! Also there is a run of two cables
through the same bored stud holes.
Am I wrong to wonder about this?
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Replies
need a pic
No scanner at hand, but Ill do
it tomorrow.If you go to their page, you can
see one pix , low res though.I cannot imagine this wasnt all
passed by an inspector, one error,
not surprising but I cannot recall
seeing things shown. Wondering if
the code has changed!
Picshttp://www.jlconline.com/cgi-bin/jlconline.storefront/475c5750003340c127177f0000010543/UserTemplate/82?s=475c5750003340c127177f0000010543&c=14d42b07598e873f4d542806ef8df204&p=1
Use to work for an electrician who didn't like to see all those diagonals with the wire
but which I believe, as a novice viewer, is still considered presentable and the norm among many.
diagonals save wire..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
yep
Am I wrong to wonder about this?
no...
but don't ...
were good...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Heyyyyyyy..I didn't get Dec yet, wonder where it is.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"People that never get carried away should be"
Hey - that's funny - I had the same thoughts looking at it last night - even showed DW as she was decorating the tree.
Forrest
From what I can see off of the so-so pics, no problems. wires aren't totally enclosed and I beleive romex is already derated for 80%. That being said lets wait for a true electrican to weigh in.
Looks like any wiring job I've ever seen.
I don't think it's a no-no to run two pieces of Romex under one staple.
My electrician uses the plastic strips these days, but I've opened up many a wall to find stacked Romex.
Nothing wrong with thinking about things.......just don't get lost in there :-)
The resolution isn't very good in these online snaps but I didn't see anything wrong. Romex cables stacked on studs...no problem. Two or more through one hole.....there's no issue about it. At least, as far as the NEC goes.
San Francisco used to prohibit and maybe still does more than one cable through a bored hole. But that's a pretty unusual local amendment.
Ed
bump
Actually I saw one or 2 places where there where 3 cables in one hole. The only place that this becomes an issue is if the cables are bunded togehter for more than 24". Then you need to derate.
In fact look around a main panel. You will often see many cases where there are many cables through a hole.
For practicality in pulling wire cables are usually limited to 2 or 3.
But for a end of run just as at a multigang switch box or at the panel you can feed as many cables through a hole as will comfortably fit.
And you need to check the listing on the staples. Often hey are listed for 2 flat cables (14-2 or 12-2). 3 wire cables are not flat and don't stack.
Likewise most romex connects are rated for 2 wire cables.
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
It's my understanding that it's not good to run phone wires through the same holes as line voltage wires, though. I think it can cause static and if that's true, I bet it can affect computers, too.
Anyone know for sure about that one?Ever wonder why "holistic" doesn't start with "w"?
I would say that's a no-no.
Line voltage should be seperated from low voltage such as phone, thermostat, cable TV, low voltage lighting, etc.
I use a 1 stud bay spacing and inspectors never seem to object - not positive what the actual code is. BillHartmann will know.
I think, the only place the 2 can come together is in an approved combination box which has a seperator panel built in to the box. I prefer seperate boxes.
Jim Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Line voltage should be seperated from low voltage such as phone, thermostat, cable TV, low voltage lighting, etc.
I use a 1 stud bay spacing and inspectors never seem to object - not positive what the actual code is.
It's Friday 6:23 and I don't feel like looking it up, but last time I checked it was 2" spacing.
Ed
2" min - I use 14-1/2" - 7x - no wonder inspectors never object.
I am really starting to get suspicious though - everybody but me has their December issue of JLC - I think somebody stole mine out of the mailbox!
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
I always thought that low-voltage to line-voltage separation distance was supposed to be 6" - is it really only 2"??Jeff
First of all the NEC does not reconize LOW VOLTAGE WIRING.Now there are a number of different sections that cover low and no voltage (fiber optic) wiring systems.Among those is TV antennas, communications circuits, network powered broadband (not real sure, but that might cover DSL), solar, class 1, 2, 3 remote control, signaling, and limited power circuits. And a few others.And by the way there is a separate article for circuits operating less than 50 volts. That is for Power Circuit, typically from batteries, solar, or windpower.Now for a TV antenna, inside wiring, it says that the lead-in shall not be closer than 2" to OTHER WIRING SYSTEMS. That would include telephone and network calbes. However there are 2 exceptions.the first is if other conductor is in metal conduit or cable armour.The 2nd is "Where permanately separated from such other conductor by a continous and firmly fixed non conductor, such as porcelain tubes or flexible tubing." Don't know if sheathing on the cables might qualify or not.Now if it is cable from a community TV anteena system (Cable TV) is can be run in the same raceway or enclosure with class 2 or 3 circuits, commincations circuits, FO, and low powered network powered braod band. Other wise it needs to be separated by 2" with similar exceptions.Now commications circuits include telephone and alarm systems. And for commications circuits there is a listed Hybrid Power and COmmunications Cable with power wiring being equivalent to NM and the sheating on the commincations part of the cable has to be rated for at least 600 volts.Now the 2" rule is designed for safety, not effectiveness. But as you can see there are lots of exceptions. Basically that this is some protection between the different circuits.The other other rules of thumb that you see listed are to protect the other circuits from interference.That said most of other rules are overly strict. Now in the old days with twin lead TV antennas are RG-59 with braided shield and 2, 3, or 4 wire telephone cables with non twisted lead if they where run in close poximity to AC power lines you could get some coupling into the cables.With with twisted pair CATx and Quadshield cable there is enough "shielding" to prevent any problems with in normal residential wiring (50 ft, 15, 20 amps) even if they where bunded togehter.Now a 1000 ft on a 50 amp arc welder would be a different story..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Thanks Bill.
My December JLC finally showed up Saturday. I think the mail man took it home for a few days.
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Among the many things I am not, I am not an electrician, but I did see on "This Old House" that running phone lines parallel to line wires is a no-no because the high voltage wires induce current in the low and you do get static.
I was pretty sure it was 24 inches too but look at the size of
bundle on the cover and it sure is more than 24 inches.
Thx for posting the pix.
Not an electrician but I've taken notes for them during inspections of homes I've GCed. I don't see anything there that's been called out.
Regarding the horizontal runs, they avoid one of things I have written down a couple of times, tight bends in Romex. Inspectors always want loops in the cable where it turns.
Now that I have the magazine in hand my opinion has changed.
The wiring looks messy to me.
The cover photo shows 6 or 8 pieces of cable stapled under large romex staples. This could be considered a violation of 334.30, which says , among other things, "flat cables shall not be stapled on edge." It would be too easy to knock those staples in a little too hard and crush some insulation.
The various diagonal runs look unprofessional to me, but it doesn't mean they're in violation. I can't imagine why anyone would spend extra time drilling separate holes for individual diagonals as shown on page 43 to save a few feet of wire. My labor costs on basic home wiring far outstrip the materials costs.
It seems to me that once you have the total effect of all the mechanical trades, if everything is run as close to horizontal , vertical and square as possible then it's easier to understand visually what is happening on a job and it's easier to put all the pieces together without problems.
Ed
Ed,
Great post.. My former employer would have freaked out if he saw anything like that. After being on the construction side, and being able to see other electrical contractor's work, it's a common thing. Very few staple's, diagonal runs etc. Not a safety issue, but it look's unproffessional.I was taught that in garages the wire went down the stud and back up, and then down to the next receptacle, not horizontal thru the stud's. It looked so much better. First day on the job, "Hold the drill on your leg at the same height(holes were to be level), and I don't want to hear it shut off till your done drilling". Yes it was going to be covered up with sheetrock, but how many people would see it before it was? A lot of it comes down to the pride you take in your work.
Dennis
I agree with Bill. Wires touching together is okay but bundled together (continuously) for 24 inches is a no no. I've seen electricians stick some insulation between wires to keep them separated on long stretches. So, stapled together and going through the same holes is okay as long as they separate after.
roger
I agree with Bill. Wires touching together is okay but bundled together (continuously) for 24 inches is a no no.
Bill's post didn't say that.
If wires are bundled for more than 24" they need to be derated, but it is a common practice and allowable by code.
You have to know how to use the ampacity and derating charts in the NEC: 310.15(B)(2)(a) gives the percentage derating based on the number of conductors, and 310.16 gives the initial ampacity of the conductors before derating.
With modern romex you start the derating with the 90-degree column of 310.16, where #14 copper is rated to carry 25 amps and #12 is rated for 30 amps. Up to 9 current-carrying conductors (this includes the neutrals) can be bundled with a 70% factor, which for #14 would be 17.5 amps, still within the 15a breaker rating, and for #12 would be 21 amps.
Over that number and the ampacity would drop below the standard breakers sizes, 15a and 20a.
So it looks as if that cover photo might be in violation of 310.15.
Thanks Dennis for remark.
Ed
Edited 12/15/2007 6:33 am ET by edlee
Thanks. I know what was said and I understand the concept of derating but I have never seen it done in house wiring. Not saying it isn't done but I have never seen it done.
There are so many people of different skill levels reading these posts and lots of people would think that wires aren't even supposed to touch each other let alone the 24 inch stuff and the derating.
roger
One minor addition.That is equivalent current carrying conductors.Normally you have 2 per circuit. But if you have multiwire circuit it is still only 2 for the multiwrie, but that can later be used as 2 120 circuits..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Yes you are right, thank you for the clarification/correction .
Ed
It's legit to run two cables (but no more) under one staple so long as the staple has extra-long legs. Likewise it's legit to run two cables through one hole.
(As to being wrong, just ask your wife.)