JLC–“REMOTE” wall system–comments?
Danno
| Posted in Energy, Heating & Insulation on
Anyone read “The Journal of Light Construction” and the article on a wall insulation system for cold climates? Pretty interesting. I still think there has to be a better way than installing the insulation separately from the structural wall. Just seems crazy to me to build the structure, then to pretty much ignore that wall and somehow make insulation “stick” to the outside of it (along with siding). I still like the “Mooney Wall” and versions of it. I guess that before I used the REMOTE system, I would go with SIPs or even ICF’s.
Replies
used the REMOTE system, I would go with SIPs or even ICF's>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
I wondered the same. I guess I will go to JLC and read what others think.
It may be that they don't or can't get those products in Alaska.off the top of my head)
Danno
I thought this topic deserved more discussion than it got. I liked the article and the wall system. I like styrofoam as an insulator.
So I thought I would try to revive the thread.
I scanned the wall diagram and I will try to post the pics.
The 1st pic is the overall wall assembly. The next two pics are the same assemble broken into 2 parts so you can see the details more clearly. the last pic is the window detailing. There are 2 ways of locating the windows. Recessed as shown and flush with the exterior, shown only in the 1st pic lower right hand corner.
That about used up about 1/3 of my personal allocation of attachment space. Oh well.
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Rich
Hi cargin,
I thought this topic deserved more discussion than it got. I liked the article and the wall system. I like styrofoam as an insulator.
Thanks for bringing this back up as I missed it the first time.
I'm working on my design for my retirement home and have worked out an almost identical idea.
One thing mine includes is putting the sheathing on the "interior' wall and covering it with drywall. I'm planning to sheath it with 3/4" OSB t&g (interior walls too). Doing so provides a much higher level of solid difference you can actually "feel"......been in two houses like that so far and it really does somehow "feel" of higher quality. It also means you can hang anything of any weight anywhere......no need to find a stud.......and I'll be using 2x6's 24" OC.
Pedro the Mule - I can finally hang my harness gear on the great room wall
Pedro
Are you going to do the vapor barrier (with I&W) on the outside of the sheathing and then 6" of XPS insulation?
2x6 wall, 1.5" sheathing, .5 DW, 6" XPS and then frruing strips and you are looking at a 15" deep wall.
You are in NC or VA so you probably won't go with 6" of XPS.
I like the idea of I&W on the exterior of the sheathing as an air sealer. I just thought we could have a discussion of it merits and problems.
Rich
Hi Rich,
You are in NC or VA so you probably won't go with 6" of XPS.
It'll be in SW VA so that climate screws around with where to put the vapor barrier....do you go inside or outside.....since it's flip a coin and I'm looking at using 2 layers of 2" foam board......I figure vapor barrier is now on the outside...and with double layers super air sealed insulation boards....I'm thinking of cheaping out between the studs with unfaced fiberglass like they have in the JLC drawing.....FG is decent insulating material on the cheap as long as it stays draft and moisture free so I'll end up with a wall around R40+ after full curing.
2x6 wall, 1.5" sheathing, .5 DW, 6" XPS and then frruing strips and you are looking at a 15" deep wall.
Let's see.....1/2" DW, 3/4" OSB sheathing, 2x6 FG filled, 2 layers 2" polyiso foam staggering the joints, treated plywood furring, Fiber Cement siding......so I'm figuring about 12"......makes for nice deep interior window seats as opposes to their style of deep exterior cut-ins....either way it cuts lighting a little but the finished boxing and trimming is incredible......typically only found in top grade old homes.....should be some real nice comments.
I like the idea of I&W on the exterior of the sheathing as an air sealer. I just thought we could have a discussion of it merits and problems.
My fault I've missed something in the translation.... "I&W" ??? Are you referring to the Vapor Barrier/Plastic and membrane?
Pedro the Mule - Keepin' it dry
Pedro and All,
I think that the JLC article and the author (Thorsten Chlupp)are both excellent.
Did you notice that Thorsten is a big fan of PassivHaus?
He speaks german and has attended PassivHaus Conference in Europe and is currently working towards building to PassivHaus standards.
There is a lot of interesting stuff goin on with Cold Climate Research that he is involved with.
I think that he is really on the ball.
I also think that the REMOTE wall can be adapted for other climates.
Reminds me of Ray Moore and the PERSIST wall.
Only Thorsten's version is more affordable.
Be sure that you understand not to put too much r-value on the inside of your wall relative to the r-value outside the structure.
Notice how Thorsten used only 2x4 for the inner wall.
REMOTE wall is a version of what Lstiburek calls the perfect wall.
HomeDesign wishin he could speak German
Hi homedesign,
Be sure that you understand not to put too much r-value on the inside of your wall relative to the r-value outside the structure.
Notice how Thorsten used only 2x4 for the inner wall.
My version/plan is to use 2x6 such that I can go 24" OC using less lumber, less thermal bridging and equally strong on a 1 1/2 story over basement.
Tell me more about the inner/outer value problems of r value.....as is I'll be R19 inner with R25 outer.
I would also note that Owens Corning was adamant about "no return" over R60 overhead as that is where the heat loss and gain is. They said to approach R30 in the walls cost too much....I was pretty ticked at this statement...now if rate of return is not worth it....ok.....but who are they to suggest that it would cost me too much....I've already priced my system and am delighted with the costs overall. People will drop $80 grand in a kitchen and OwenCorn thinks their product costs too much......geeeeeeeez
With a metal roof as part of the package and incredible double wall performance and phenomenal air sealing.....I still don't understand how the roof would still need better than double the insulation......Ownens Corning never answered that question.....when I emailed them a second time they said one of their engineers would contact me.....when I notified them a third time, they never responded.
Pedro the Mule - Inner cog wheels are moving
Pedro,
I've attached a spreadsheet I have used in the past to calculate the temperature of the sheathing in a wall assembly. It's not high tech, and I would not say that I'm 100% sure it's right, but it does use the formula given by Joe Lsitburek in the Building Science Guide to Insulating Sheathing. If you reference the "Condensation Management" section beginning on pg. 16 you will see the formula and the explanation.
With the spreadsheet, you can input the interior temperature and relative humidity, exterior temperature, and the R values of your wall assembly. If your sheathing temperature is below the dew point you can have problems, but if it's above the dew point you should be fine.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Hi JonBlakemore,
attached a spreadsheet ......Joe Lsitburek in the Building Science
Superb materials.....gonna have a blast studying them.....thanks for ear marking it.
I'll study up and try to post some intelligent ideas/points.
Pedro the Mule - Late night entertainment at it's best
Mr Mule,
Concerning the inner to outer insulation ratio....It depends on your climate .. I will quote the article:
The rigid foam can be supplemented by installing a
lesser amount of fiberglass batt insulation in the frame
wall. The goal is to increase the wall’s total R-value from
the inside, but without allowing the sheathing to cool to
the dewpoint. It’s a balancing act: You have to put enough
insulation on the outside to keep the sheathing membrane
warm, but not too much on the inside else you’ll isolate
the sheathing and framing members from indoor heat.
This is critical, because besides providing an air barrier,
the membrane — either by itself or in combination with
the sheathing and exterior insulation — acts as a vapor retarder.
So there’s no doubt that in a REMOTE wall, interior
moisture vapor will be stopped at the sheathing plane.
He goes on to say that about 1/3 of total r-value on the interior side of the vapor barrier is good for his climate.
By The Way there is another new article in JLC June 09 with another approach to Low Energy Home construction.
The two Articles (REMOTE and Building a Tight House) have 2 things in common..
The homes are both extremely airtight and the have high r-value walls.
Both project strategies allow for blower door testing before the drywall goes on.
Concerning wall R-value....Our Buidling codes and the insulation manuf. and even some textbooks have it all wrong.
The only reason they promote double and triple r-value in the attic vs wall is because there is more room in the attic.
It has nothing to do with where the conductive gains and losses are happening.
A right sized home may likely have more exterior wall surface area than ceiling or roof area... so boosting wall r-value is a good thing.
Hi homedesign,
insulation on the outside to keep the sheathing membrane
Now in the article.....is he stating "sheathing membrane" as being the typical "OSB w/ the vapor barrier"?
I'm still missing something here....at least in my situation since I'm putting the "OSB sheathing" on the interior and the pair of 2" polyiso foam panels will be the only vapor barrier.
Thanks for your continued valuable input.
Pedro the Mule - Always grateful
Pedro,
I will get back to you later
Edited 6/9/2009 7:34 am by homedesign
Pedro..Mr Mule-man,
The wall that you describe is similar in some ways to the REMOTE wall and yet it is very different.
I think that airtightness is the most critical component.
Foil faced polyiso as a material is airtight .. but what about "the system"...
I have noticed that even Building America is having a hard time achieving airtightness with foil faced "outsulation".
The failure seems to be at all the cracks between panels at the edges of panels and window openings and at the interface between panels and ceilng or roof.
What do you have in mind for the ceiling and or roof insulation and air barrier?
"There is a crack.. a crack in everything" Leonard Cohen
Hi homedesign,
I think that airtightness is the most critical component.
Completely agree....we actually had little trouble heating the house before we put any insulation up....we took great measures to seal it up tight first. With minimal air leakage, actually heating up the framed house with a propane heater similar in design to the old upright kerosene heaters didn't take much. We had a 20" box fan suspended on the top floor pushing air back down towards the bottom floor. Of course two years later as we added the polyiso panel wrap, siding then fiberglass inside, the heater went from high to low but the airseal was the most beneficial.
I have noticed that even Building America is having a hard time achieving airtightness with foil faced "outsulation".
The failure seems to be at all the cracks between panels at the edges of panels and window openings and at the interface between panels and ceilng or roof.
What do you have in mind for the ceiling and or roof insulation and air barrier?
I plan to start with some serious attention to detail just like the house I'm living in now. As the owner builder, I can justify the time to do it beyond the best. That's probably as important as anything else.....I pay the most attention to detail because I'm the one who will have to live in it and pay for any shortcomings.
Applying flexible caulk or can foam where appropriate at every junction point will help insure a tight seal. My foam board plan is to use 2 - 2 inch panels. The first panel will be attached with an appropriate caulk/glue to the studs with canned foam bead where each panel meets another. Then tape the joint. The next layer of foam board will be applied staggering the joints and still foam and tape the seams. Thus air has to pass through basic non sealed siding and find some way to get through the first layer of tape, then foam seal, around a staggered joint, then another layer of tape, then another layer of foam seal. Beyond that it has to create enough interior pressure to get the indoor air to escape out of the opposite wall of same seal practices and this doesn't take into account the glued structural 3/4" osb and 1/2" drywall all mudded up that it has to get beyond. So any air that makes it through all of this does make a difference to me as a type A personality but the efficiency problems are irrelevant considering you still need some fresh air.
Doors? I'm plannnig to create an air lock with the three entry doors in my initial design. So you'll go through one sealed door into a type of sunroom and in the other area you'll enter a foyer/coat area. From there you enter the main home area through another weather sealed door.
Windows? I prefer modern day casement to doublehung for many reasons and one is the efficient seal you get when you lock them down.
Transition from walls to roof? I'll be using lightweight metal roofing so......2 - 2" layers of foam board installed like the walls and will have the 3/4" osb on the top attached with 6" deck screws. Double layer of 30 lb black felt, then the metal roofing. My walls....the foam boards will run right on up and around the rafters and get canned foam shot around the cutouts to ensure a tight seal.
Sorry if I missed anything.....friend just called and ambulance on the way....gotta get to his house down the road and lockup for him......
Pedro the Mule - Unless you're in daily huricanes, it'll be tight enough
Hey Pedro,
I had a feeling that you were building tight.
Joe Lstiburek said he could make rigid insulation work as an air barrier as long as he was there to inspect the whole process.
Did you blower door test your current house?if so how many cfm50?
Do you use an HRV?
Concerning your proposed roof.. are you saying that the foam panels will be applied directly to the rafters?
I am just guessing that you plan to put the osb on the inside of your exterior wall before you put up the interior partitions?
What about receptacle boxes in the exterior wall?
Edited 6/11/2009 3:49 pm by homedesign
Hi homedesign,
I had a feeling that you were building tight.
Joe Lstiburek said he could make rigid insulation work as an air barrier as long as he was there to inspect the whole process.
That really is a key point.....I don't think you can expect that level of service from the typical worker. Most workers at that level either don't posses the willingness or education to make the important things happen. As a result it's either DIY or do it while holding a whip to a worker. When you do find those rare quality workers.....it'll cost the typical homeowner so much for their detailed expertise and time, that they choose not to do it.....what a shame because the savings do pay off over time and immediately.....and it's rarely very long. Immediate savings by way of less and smaller ductwork, quieter systems, less in wiring and materials cost, less filtering capacity, etc. Long term because less energy use. I've seen it ran half a dozen different ways and everytime it comes up that the extra details financed over 30 years for the typical buyer will be less increase in their payments than savings in energy.....ex. extra details cost $50 a month extra on the mortgage, but they save $100 a month on electricity and that ratio will only improve as utility costs continue to rise.
Did you blower door test your current house?if so how many cfm50?
hehehh my blower door tests....You'll like this....blower test, I don't need no stinking blower test..... ha ha....I know my house....I know the work we did....I know it's sealed tighter 'n 10 day old tick on a bloodhound......after the airseal button up but prior to fiberglass.....I did the slow walk through with a candle at every corner and crevice looking for air movement.....secondly....main floor front door...open the door and touch it back to the casing but no pressure on the latch.....walk downstairs to the back door and swiftly open the door about 6".....the front door will close and latch....and that's 5 years after the candle walk through so I spent my $ and time on attention to detail rather than a piece of hardware......not against hardware and it's probably necessary for many employee installations but I really can't imagine anything "I" missed.
Do you use an HRV?
Sort of....mine is a diy device linked to a couple of thermostats that tie to the primary floor thermostat...when the outdoor air is within 4 degrees of the indoor unit +/- AC/Heat outdoor air is pulled through a high efficiency replaceable filter and unnoticeable positive pressure develops, pulling in fresh air a couple of hours a day "most" days. This has worked well with us and no mold or allergens seem to affect us.....actually lived in the house for 3 years now. When we run the exhaust hood in the kitchen, the negative pressure always pulls fresh air through my fresh air filter unit regardless of temps thus additional fresh air comes in then.
A bit more detail on how my fresh air unit works....when switched to cooling we set the thermostat to 74.....as long as it's cooling using the compressor......the fresh air unit does not operate....once the outside temps hit 74, the fresh air unit pulls in air until the incoming air hits 70 and then it shuts off so if we have an 80 day and 55 night....the house doesn't continue to pull indoor air beyond the 70 comfort zone. In the fall/winter it's the opposite.....heat is set at 70....the fresh air unit cuts on when outdoor temps reach 70 and cuts off if it hits 74.
There is the odd week or two that the fresh air unit simply won't run because of the existing temperature extremes but it works most of the summer and a good deal of the winter.....I'm tinkering with a project that produces solar heated fresh air for winter. Current technology HRV are a decent idea but I don't think they touch the efficiency of my home built unit.
Concerning your proposed roof.. are you saying that the foam panels will be applied directly to the rafters?
Yes, I'll be constructing a 1 1/2 story so insulating the entire envelope will be cost effective. I'm planning on enough metal strapping criss crossed over the sheathing to prevent potential uplift from a storm.....sort of overkill used "with" hurricane clips.
I am just guessing that you plan to put the osb on the inside of your exterior wall before you put up the interior partitions?
I could be convinced of that.....currently I'm planning to put it up after the framing is finished including interior walls which means some extra temporary bracing at corners until then, I'm thinking putting it up right before drywall but the jury's still out on that one. I don't know that it makes a whole lot of difference since I'll be using the 3/4 osb on interior walls too. I'm expecting this detail will simply floor the inspector with overkill. To get the corner rigidity I need for code, I may go ahead and do each of the corners & "pre-fish" outlets and photo insulation for the inspector....I had a few such incidents with the last house and the inspector never even looked at the photo's......of course he kept going on about the cabinet grade rafter connections.
What about receptacle boxes in the exterior wall?
I've been thinking that one through the last couple of weeks....one idea is a below grade arched sitting area under the main floor at the basement level. If I do that I could probably fairly easily mount them in metal conduit right under archway edges. Another idea is to simply cut into the foam boards as close to the electrical box size as possible and "glue" the plastic boxes in with canned foam...in bulk the stuffs pretty rigid. But again still thinking it through.
Pedro the Mule - always open to useful suggestions and brainstorming, always
Pedro
I like the idea of I&W on the exterior of the sheathing as an air sealer. I just thought we could have a discussion of it merits and problems.
My fault I've missed something in the translation.... "I&W" ??? Are you referring to the Vapor Barrier/Plastic and membrane?
Quoting from the article (you can buy the article online for $3 at JLC).
The earlist REMOTE walls used peel and stick membrane: this produced and incredibly airtight and waterproff shell but it was expensive. so most builders switched to 6 mil poly .... Tyvek Stuccowrap or Drain Wrap.
The vapor barrier goes over the plate and is sealed to a 6mil poly vapor barrier that runs across the ceiliing joists.
Our goal is an airtightness of 0.6 air changes per hour at a pressure of 50 pascals (ACH50)- the same standard for Passice House. We have achieved this with 6 mil poly and have gotten down as low as 0.3 ACH50 with peel and stick membrane. The best we have done with stuccowrap is 0.8 ACH50.
As you can see in the diagram the vapor barrier membrane can be 6 mil, I&W peel and stick or stuccowrap http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=120232.3
Rich
Hi cargin,
"I&W"
It finally hit me like a brick in a tornado.....I&W.....ICE and WATER<!----><!----><!---->
We don't utilize much of that around here due to generally milder weather but my retirement place will experience a good deal of frozen weather so I do need to learn more about it.<!----><!---->
After reading some more at Grace Construction Products I see where condensation at dew point could be a real concern....now it's all starting to sink in......sorry for the delay.<!----><!---->
Ok, now that I've reviewed with all the info thus far, maybe I can be a little more intelligent........<!----><!---->
I think the condensation/dew point you are concerned about would only be an issue in two situations.....one if there was a lot of cold to warm "air" movement....with this system being so tight, I think that's pretty much eliminated as a concern.<!----><!---->
The second somewhat more likely scenario is quick temp changes.....such as with a winter vacation home....it's kept right above freezing and the heat is cranked up quickly such that the walls do not evenly acclimate. The same holds true for those wanting to run programmable thermostats while they are away at work. But with a home built this efficient, I don't see the necessity in running temps up and down for a full time live in.<!----><!---->
My conclusion: The dew point will not be a problem for a full time home owner maintaining a constant temperature but this is not the system for a winter vacation home.<!----><!---->
What 'cha think?<!----><!---->
Pedro the Mule - How about desiccant packs in the walls?
That is an interesting insulation detail. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. I have been contemplating doing something similar (except using spray foam inside instead of FG or cellulose). If I was not working with an existing shell I would explore using ICFs or SIPs as you alluded to. The possibilty of insects infesting the foam has been perturbing me. I haven't explored the local availability of borate treated foams or equivalent yet.
Thank you. I was surprised the article didn't draw more interest. Oh, well. I guess I needed to say something more controversial--like "I just love the JLC and think it is so much better than FHB," or "I can't stand the JLC, don't you think FHB is so much better?"
I hear you can reset your pixel allocation by clicking on something at the bottom of the page. Look in the thread about not enough pixels and they talk about the reset option. Or, like I said, I'll do the cap and trade thing and sell you my unused pixels!
:-)
I was surprised the article didn't draw more interest
Well, REMOTE is the newer version of PERSIST, if you have studied the one, you are really already up to speed on the other. REMOTE takes advantage of calling out newer materials and practices, which is handy.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Another thank you, for bringing this "remote" concept up again. I'd missed it too, the first time around.
A few initial impressions and questions, that come up in my poorly informed mind:
I wonder about the molecular longevity of XPS with added insect chemistry. Will it maintain its integrity or will it break down over the long haul? Is that even predictable?
If the XPS breaks down, how will that effect the external nailing strips and the siding attached to them? Hardi siding is pretty heavy so I wonder how well that system would support it, particularly over many years.
How about the materials cost vs the R-value, between the remote wall and the Mooney Wall?
Lastly, what's the Green Factor quotient between the two? What kind of harmful chemical residue is produced from making XPS with insect chemistry, if any?
Anyone done the research?
HVC
Hardi siding is pretty heavy so I wonder how well that system would support it, particularly over many years.
I think Hardi would be way too heavy to put on the furring strips that are installed over 6" of XPS.
Article mentioned vinyl, stucco or wood siding.
You had better decide on a wall system, while you can still swing a hammer. LOL
Now quit lurking around BT and get to building that dream house on that dream lot of yours. LOL
Rich
Edited 6/8/2009 11:01 pm ET by cargin
You had better decide on a wall system, while you can still swing a hammer. LOL
HA! Too true but another concern about getting old is becoming closed minded to new methods and materials. So I don't want to dismiss this concept without asking some questions and making comparisons.
I'm very happy with the Mooney Wall concept for my new home, partly because I did a renovation, many years ago, using interior strapping with added insulation which performed better than expected.
Therefor it's easy for me to imagine how strapping can be improved in various ways, while maintaining all the integrity that has evolved in standard wood framing materials and methods, over many years.
By following Mike Smith's excellent examples and explanations, I expect to get the maximum out of the Mooney Wall concept.
Edited 6/9/2009 4:32 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
I share your concerns about the furring sliding down under load. In the wall setup that has been percolating in my mind (for the last decade at least) the vertical furring would run up and tie onto the bottoms of the rafters.
In the wall setup that has been percolating in my mind (for the last decade at least) the vertical furring would run up and tie onto the bottoms of the rafters.
Good idea, at least on paper/in cyber. I suppose that one of the metal bracket makers must have something you could use to fasten the furring to the rafters or trusses.
I just wish that there was more evidence/experience to tell us what would happen with that entire sandwich, long term. Until then, I'm going to stick with proven materials and methods, adjusting sizes upward to suit my aims.
Great point about the question of long term viability. I've been an early adopter before and ended up with orphanned technology or products that failed to meet expectations (grotesquely so at times). I think my nature is to remember the failures and take successes for granted which leads to becoming more conservative as time goes by.
One can start off on "the leading edge" and wind up on "the bleeding edge".
Yea, being on the cutting edge can lead to a bleeding bank account. ;-)
I really dislike having to yield any of my interest in unusual building methods to market pressures but my home is my most valuable asset and therefore must have reasonable liquidity.
I wrote a couple of short personal anecdotes in another thread, the other day, about how difficult it can be to sell something unusual. If God/fate didn't mean for me to learn something from those incidents, I doubt that they would or could have occured.
So, to me, the height of stupidity is to ignore life's lessons. Not to say that we don't all fall into that trap but, hey, sometimes the lessons are so pointed that, even with my lousy memory, I can't avoid them.
If Riversong were still around he would be all over this. I bet he could have drawn Frenchy in and run the thread up to 800 posts by Monday night.
You're right.
Nothing like a bit of passion and controversy to keep a thread going.
I find it sad when knowledgeable people stop posting, especially people who have expertise in one particular aspect of construction. I am more of a generalist.
I personally think all that labor to achieve the same results as SIPS is ridiculous.
Maybe someone can correct me.
Bruce Harley touts these types of walls as the cats whiskers. All I see is issues and potential problems.
WAY over complicated to arrive at a means easily achieved in other ways.
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
I personally think all that labor to achieve the same results as SIPS is ridiculous.
Nah....thats no fun....that would be too easy
so I'm not crazy............
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
Hi EricPaulson,
I personally think all that labor to achieve the same results as SIPS is ridiculous
Good point but here's a couple of other good points.....
Some of this info can find a place in retrofitting a remodel.....old homes don't lend themselves to somehow bolting a SIP in place
Secondly in my particular situation.....getting the machinery in to my retirement property that can delivery and set SIPs may not be an option so I have to consider equally good site built alternatives.
Pedro the Mule - Simply a different design to reach the same result