Okay, my head is about to explode.
I have a decent crew. They are respectful, punctual, and good workers. Having said that – they are slobs. Lunch garbage all around. No clean-up at the end of the day, let alone Friday. I walk the site after they leave. Tools are left out. Tools they borrowed from me are not returned top my office. Tool belts dropped/ left where they are working and intend to work come Monday AM. Soda cans and coffee cups. Even cupcake wrappers strewn about.
When questioned why they don’t bring their tools back to the job box or tool hooks (yes, I do provide these) they say they’re going to be working there the following day so why waste time breaking down and setting up in the morning. !!!!
It’s been a tough battle getting them to show up with a full compliment of tools. Seems they all work on weekends and leave their main tools there. I had to explain that they make more in the 5 days they work with me vs the 2 days they work moonlighting. Do the math. When I started working in construction, the rule was you were NEVER allowed to borrow anyones tools and if you didn’t have the tool you need, that was the end of your work day. See you tomorrow – with the tool, otherwise don’t come back. Check will be in the mail.
When they started, I told them what my expectations were. They are slowly coming together but this slob mentality seems a bit hard to shed. Any ideas? Am I being too particular? A think a clean site is a safer site, a better representation of the company and organized means efficiency.
Is it too much to tell the guys that whoever doesn’t pick up after themselves gets a day off. What’s the solution?
Frankie
Flay your Suffolk bought-this-morning sole with organic hand-cracked pepper and blasted salt. Thrill each side for four minutes at torchmark haut. Interrogate a lemon. Embarrass any tough roots from the samphire. Then bamboozle till it’s al dente with that certain je ne sais quoi.
Arabella Weir as Minty Marchmont – Posh Nosh
Replies
I don't think you're being too hard, especially when they know that these are thing syou expect from them.
I used to take a DL and credit card for each tool I loaned out before I went solo.
You could also remind them that there's a huge pool of unemployed carpenters for you to find replacements from.
You big softie! Your site, your rules! Sounds like your guys need a little reminder whos name is on their cheques. Give them all a day or 2 off if you ask me.
They leave tools out in NY? Sounds like lazyness, irresponsibility and lack of pride. You're the boss, right? Enough said.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Sounds like the boss aint be bossey enuf. Hide their check under the trash can or broom. And if ur tools are at some other job .. go work there till u come prepared to work at mine .
In my opinion you need to tighten things up a bit.
I personally like/am proud of a clean jobsite, and I clean up almost every day. Anyone who looks at my site- I want them to be impressed by how clean and organized I am, not what a slob I appear to be. By leaving a mess I also run the risk of giving people the impression that I'm a sloppy carpenter or a hack.
The jobs that I have worked on with a crew, the jobsite gets a full cleanup every Friday without fail, it is expected and everybody knows it. And unless the leads and/or carps have critical stuff that HAS to get done, EVERYONE pitches in to do the cleanup (not just the laborers).
I stopped reading after the first paragraph.
Workers are like children, they only do what you let them get away with.
Get on your guys. Its unprofessional and it makes you look bad.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
"Workers are like children, they only do what you let them get away with."
I thought the expression was: "Workers are like second wives..."
Bear in mind that it's Friday, and I've had a few (purely medicinal--my IV site is aching)(bear in mind that for me, every day is "Friday") my first response was "tough love." They will only use you as a doormat if you let them (this from a man who let's his dog do pretty much whatever it wants to do!) Better than your head exploding! Criminently, if that hapens, those guys won't be getting any paycheck. Gotta protect the source of hapiness at all costs!
Edited 6/12/2009 8:24 pm ET by Danno
One thing I've noticed over the years - the guys that own their own homes keep a cleaner job site and take better care of tools, etc. than those who rent. Not an absolute, but close to it.
http://www.quittintime.com/ View Image
It's all about expectations and response. It could be being late, being slobs, poor workmanship - it really doesn't matter, it's a performance issue.
I took over a crew of guys, and they took way too long at lunch, and left early. From what I gathered, they had been doing this for a couple of years. I picked the worst offender, and gave him a choice - straighten up today or loose his job tomorrow. He didn't think I was serious, so I canned him. I got the rest of the guys together and asked them if screwing off was more important than feeding their families. I told them the problem was going away, and if they chose to ride on out with it, that was fine with me. I also told them I preferred that they straighted up - and the rest of them did.
I think as a boss, I need to be kind and fair, and also be ready to pull the trigger when required.
Best of luck.
You are an enabler.
Okay, you've noticed a problem. Now, find the solution. For many years, I was just a mean old person about such stuff. They didn't want to see my nastiness, so they conformed.
Now, I'm a lot older and more mellower. I'd probably just tell one of the guys, each day as the lunch period ends, to pick up all the trash and litter and put it in the garbage can, that has a plastic liner. Of course, there would be a plastic garbage can and liner right next to him.
The tools is a much different story. If they left my tools lying there, I'd wait till they left, then pick them up and take them home and put them on the shelf. Then, when the guys showed up to work tomorrow, they'd have nothing to work with. I'd casually just tell them that I only buy the tools once. Actually, though, I really wouldn't care because I stopped supplying tools back in the early eighties. If they wanted me to supply a saw, I'd hand them my handsaw. No one ever accepted it. I wonder why?
Grow some nads.
Ultimatum:
1. Tools put away/return starting now. Lost or damaged and they get it deducted, no excuses or exceptions. It's YOUR livlihood even if they are gone.
2. Tell them next week you are hiring someone to clean up, but oh yeah, "your pay will be cut equally to cover the cost of the cleanp guy." Which do they prefer? (If you can legally do it)
3. If #2 is not doable then fire the first guy that disobeys citing misuse of company property and repeated safety violations once you have properly notified them of such policies.
Follow through !!!
I'm not flippin' you off.........just counting cubits
I picked up on a couple things in your post.
I've got a lot of respect for my boss as a manager. There are some days when he drives me crazy, but that's because he's so good at getting people to do exactly what he wants. But that makes him a good boss, doesn't it?
If he *asks a question* like "Why aren't your tools put away," no answer in the world will be good enough. If I replied that I thought it'd be efficient to leave them lying around, he'd pretend to think it over and then over-rule me.
My boss doesn't tolerate back-talk, or complaining. When I was first hired, I struggled with something and told him "Man, that was really tough." He cut me off in mid-sentence and said "Complaining isn't allowed here."
Your reasons for doing things don't have to make sense to your guys. I see the logic behind 90% of what we do at work. For the other 10% I curse under my breath, wonder what my boss is thinking, get all sullen and withdrawn - and then get on with doing it!
Thank you all for the input and confirming that a stronger approach is required. When I started working for this company I had to change a lot of the work habits that had become the "culture" of the company (including wearing gloves while using the tablesaw). It was met with a lot of resistance, I had to fire a guy, but in the end it's the best site the company has going.On Friday, I told the crew, informally, that tools were required and they should gather them over the weekend from wherever they have them stored. Monday, I'll give them a written list of what tools are required for which position. I don't like doing it so formally but I don't want to have the "I didn't know that was a tool I was required to have" conversation. Last week, one of the lead carpenters ask to borrow a screwdriver from me. I told him as a lead carpenter he should have it. He shrugged and stated he didn't need it often enough to warrant carrying it around. Head explodes.I am not going to do inspections of their tool bags. I am going to watch and listen for tool availability when a task needs to be done. First time a tool is lacking, it's the end of the day for that worker.I was asking you folks because their attitude is so pervasive. It's as though they bring just the tools they need, relative to the work they did the day before or how long they think they'll be on this site. One guy even said that he didn't bring all his tools because he didn't like lugging all of them around when he moved around between 3 sites. Isn't it better to lug them around than to keep them at home along with your own ####?I told the guys a few weeks ago that we would be hanging some GWB and a screwgun was required. Two guys brought theirs in. One guy uses his screwgun as a drill (spade bits only)! It has the speed, but no torque. When asked how he handles drilling 1/8" holes he said he hasn't needed to and when he does he'll borrow from the other's. Next week someone will have a short day. When MY boss asks why his time card is light, I'll have an answer.Thank you to all for your thoughts.Frankie
Flay your Suffolk bought-this-morning sole with organic hand-cracked pepper and blasted salt.
Thrill each side for four minutes at torchmark haut. Interrogate a lemon.
Embarrass any tough roots from the samphire. Then bamboozle till it's al dente with that certain je ne sais quoi.
Arabella Weir as Minty Marchmont - Posh Nosh
I missed the point you seem to now be making.
When you need power tools or unusual tools it is the responsibility of the contractor to provide. A carpenter or employee should never be required to use other than basic hand tools of his own.
Think of your self as a company in a manufactoring business, do they require the employees to bring tools required to do their job? No, and neither should you. It is your resaponsibility to provide.
Now as an aside to this, I am fully tooled and have used my tools on jobs. I do expect my boss to replace if they break.
As far as cleanups on jobs that should be an ongoing process and at the least everyone and I mean everyone should help picking up at the end of each workday.
I guess it's hard to have a discussion about workers bringing tools to the job without defining what tools. This has been discussed at BT many times. My tool list for each level of worker is limited to only non-powered hand tools, with the exception of drill, screwgun and impact driver. If a guy wants to bring his own circular saw - cool.Tools wear out. You're going to buy them more than once - accept it. The better the tools, the longer they will last. The better you treat your tools the longer they will last. However, if you bring in a tool that we need and I haven't provided, I will replace it if it gets broken. I will also buy one for the site when I see what kind of asset it is and so you can bring yours back home. As for clean-up: Everyone has to pick-up after themselves. The laborer will sweep, but everyone picks up all their big pieces. Garbage can next to chopsaw station. If I could only get them to throw their offcuts into the garbage. Dreaming...Frankie
Flay your Suffolk bought-this-morning sole with organic hand-cracked pepper and blasted salt.
Thrill each side for four minutes at torchmark haut. Interrogate a lemon.
Embarrass any tough roots from the samphire. Then bamboozle till it's al dente with that certain je ne sais quoi.
Arabella Weir as Minty Marchmont - Posh Nosh
frammer and Frankie,
I have all the same issue on my jobs but just to clairfy....
If these are your "employees" I might consider suppling some tools especially power ones but if they are "subs" they bring EVERY tool they need as thats part of their bid. And even if I did supply something, if one of the guys drops it off the roof due to carelessness or something, I am NOT buying him another one! Just the other day I saw a guy drop one of another guys nail guns in the sand due to carelessness and I thought for sure there would be a fight as to who was going to pay for it if it didn't work.
I worked at an automotive dealership many many years ago and part of the job was you bouight what ALL of what you needed aside from high dollar diagnotics tools. If you didn't, you didn't have a job. And has the Snap On phrase on the stickers says (or something like) "I own the best, please do not ask to borrow"
tool list for each level of worker is limited to only non-powered hand tools, with the exception of drill, screwgun and impact driver. If a guy wants to bring his own circular saw>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
I'm sorry to disagree with you, but a drill, screwgun and impact driver are your responsbility, not your workers.
You should be tooled up with power tools that your men ue on a daily basis, it is your responsibility to provide them with the tools to get your work done. As far as hand tools, yes that would be their responsibility, even though I really believe consumables are also your duty. Consumables would be pencils, chaulk etc, after all they are working by the hour to make you money.
Ha - man, that'd be nice. The guy I work for provides less than 20% of the various tools we need. The agreement is that he'll repair/replace tools as they wear out, but whenever that happens he accuses us of abusing them and tries to avoid paying. When he replaces a tool, it's always something cheaper. My co-worker just got his $200 Milwaukee sawzall replaced with a $100 Dewalt. It's a sensitive issue.As for my truck - well - I supply almost everything on it, from saws to drills to ladders. Extension cords, lights, everything. Everything except a small shop-vac, actually. And some days I take a little heat for not coming to work more equipped!!!And you all wonder why I'm such a complainer.
Edited 6/13/2009 3:10 pm ET by Biff_Loman
for my truck - well - I supply almost everything on it, from saws to drills to ladders. Extension cords, lights, everything. Everything except a small shop-vac, actually. And some days I take a little heat for not coming to work more equipped!!!>>>>>>>>>>>>>Either this guy needs a wake up call or you must be well paid. I have never worked for anyone that wasn't tooled up. If they weren't I would be looking for a new job. I will not work under those conditions unless I an paid as well as a sub !
(Uh, sorry for the hijack.)I'd think the same thing, except I'm working for this guy because he is one of the premium custom home builders in the area. We live in a smaller, blue-collar city that I never thought had any wealth, and we build million-dollar homes. Which makes it even funnier to see how cheap he is. It actually doesn't frost me all that much, because I know it'll be a cold day in hell before he gets into buying tools. For the last 20 years, his method has been to hire carpenters who were tired of being independent, and who were already tooled up.Then he signs rental agreements with them for their tools. So even if they're off for whatever reason, he gets to use their tools! :-O I figured I'd be a different kind of stupid and just skip that part. So at least what I bring is at my discretion. Ye gods.
Edited 6/13/2009 8:14 pm ET by Biff_Loman
On the tool thing, I agree absolutely with Frammer. The only tools I don't supply are hand tools, and even there, I will supply specialised ones or stuff like paintbrushes where the quality of the tool makes a palpable difference in the finished quality of the work.
Why do I feel this is my responsibility? Because, among other reasons, I'm charging the client twice as much for each carp as I'm paying the carp himself. That means, unless I wanna be just a cheap, thieving s.o.b., I gotta provide the client with more for that hourly rate than just the carp--I also have to provide the tools he uses, pay the maintenance and take the depreciation on them, haul them to the site, protect them from getting lost or stolen, etc., etc. The cost of providing all that justifies my 'overage' on the carp's hourly wage.
It never ceases to amaze me that large outfits, with the much greater financial resources they have, don't do as well as small operators in this respect. Even a small remod guy needs in excess of $50G worth of tools and equipment (truck, ladders, roof jacks, staging planks, gyprock struts, yadda-yadda) to be able to do a good job without running off to the rental agency three times a day. But I have shown up on large, multi-million-dollar sites to work as an independent sub for a condo owner, and seen the project GC's tool trailer with fewer (and poorer) tools in it than are in my own pickup. I know these guys are billing two and a half to three times what I am...but they're providing almost nothing more than warm bodies.
Where the hell is that nonsense coming from?
As for control of the tools, and getting them put away, if the operation you're running is too big for you to keep it all in your head--which guy took which tool on which day--you need a locked tool crib and a sign-out system. Any tool not returned and signed back in by you gets back-charged against the paycheck of the guy who signed it out.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
"But I have shown up on large, multi-million-dollar sites to work as an independent sub for a condo owner, and seen the project GC's tool trailer with fewer (and poorer) tools in it than are in my own pickup. I know these guys are billing two and a half to three times what I am...but they're providing almost nothing more than warm bodies."Boy you hit a nerve with me there. I'm horrified at what some of these "high end" companies have or don't have when it comes to tools.
What really frosts me is when a sub asks to borrow a tool that may be a very essential tool for them to own...but they just don't. I don't mind loaning a tool of mine for an hour or a few minutes if they guy is caught & needs something, of course I will. That happens all the time in the trades.
It's just when they come in and are constantly using my shop-vac or table saw on a day after day basis. Then I tell them no, and that they really need to bring in their own and further more it's unfair to put me in that position. It's called being a mooch.I almost never borrow a tool because I think I may have every one that was ever made.
What really frosts me is when a sub asks to borrow a tool
If the sub is working for me, I'll loan it to him once (not twice, and that is made clear).
If it's a sub working for the owner or GC, the answer is,
BWA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
That's why they call "nice" guys like me schmucks.
Huh. I'm a very nice guy--ask two outta three of my ex wives if ya don't believe me!--but I ain't no schmuck (ask the third). I just don't consider it part of being nice to teach some loser that what he's doing wrong is okay and he should keep doing it.
I'm basically a remod guy, so I have to be competent in all the trades. That means if I hire a plumbing (or electrical or concrete or whatever) sub, it's because I think the job is going to require tooling or skills or manpower I can't easily supply myself. If the subcontractor's guys show up to start a job without some necessary tool, I will bail them out if I can to keep the job rolling--after all, I'm responsible to the HO for that--but I won't do it twice. If they show up on day two without that left-handed monkey wrench, they're outta there. And I wind up doing the work myself and backcharging the subcontractor and going home at midnight....
This has never happened twice, BTW.
But I am not responsible to the HO for his other independent subs or his GC's subs, and I'll be damned if somebody who's too cheap to buy his own tools is gonna get paid to do work with my tools that I could be getting paid to do.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Actually this last go around with a sheetrocker & his crew, I put the kabosh on them using my shop vac even though they were my sub.I totally agree with your sentiments.
<The guy I work for provides less than 20% of the various tools we need. The agreement is that he'll repair/replace tools as they wear out, but whenever that happens he accuses us of abusing them and tries to avoid paying. When he replaces a tool, it's always something cheaper.>Maybe the ball needs to roll both ways. Several responses to OP told him to tighten up on his crew - clear expectations, promptly enforced. Sometimes crews also need to tighten up on their employer, which sounds like your case. Several guys together at the same time having a polite meeting about the sawzall situation might make it clear to the boss that he'd rather have you responsible guys than the first applicants he gets from a help wanted ad. Then again, I'm self employed and completely enjoy not having an employer. Although I sometimes need the 'clear expectations, promptly enforced' speech as far as relations with customers goes. It's always something. j
Providing consumables ARE my responsibility. As you mentioned, these include pencils and chalk as well as utility blades, drill bits, driver tips, saw blades, grinder wheels, extension cords...I have never work on a site or with a company where the crews did not have to provide their own drills. Some companies even required that if you called yourself/ got paid as a framer, you came to work with a circular saw.When I had my own company, it was very small - one site at a time. I provided ALL power tools and it worked well at that scale. If I were to have grown to multiple sites, I don't know if there would have been more "lost" or destroyed tools.Frankie
Flay your Suffolk bought-this-morning sole with organic hand-cracked pepper and blasted salt.
Thrill each side for four minutes at torchmark haut. Interrogate a lemon.
Embarrass any tough roots from the samphire. Then bamboozle till it's al dente with that certain je ne sais quoi.
Arabella Weir as Minty Marchmont - Posh Nosh
never work on a site or with a company where the crews did not have to provide their own drills. Some companies even required that if you called yourself/ got paid as a framer, you came to work with a circular saw>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
I have never worked for anyone that required me to have anything besides basic hand tools. Not my job to provide power tools. That is your job as the boss.
When I had my own company, it was very small - one site at a time. I provided ALL power tools and it worked well at that scale. If I were to have grown to multiple sites, I don't know if there would have been more "lost" or destroyed tools.>>>>>>>>>>>>..
Tools are lost and damaged, that is the cost of being in business. If I work for you, I will show up with toolbelt with hand tools. Anything beyond that, if I was to work for you would have to be compensated for.
Why is it that any contractor beleves that it is their mans responsibility to provide other than basic hand tools. It seems that as an owner of a construction company you should tool up and not complain about tools.
As far as cleaning up, men will follow the leader. If you are working along side of them, you should be setting the example!
Seems like you are getting a lot of mixed advice, some good/some not so good.1. I don't see how it would be in your best interest firing or sending someone home if you don't already have someone to fill his position. Smaller crew means less production means longer job means the time schedule is out the window then your boss's bosses are mad at you. Maybe you get fired as a result.2. If you start shouting at guys, dropping their pay, stealing their tools, or otherwise disrespecting them they are going to get angry at you, work slower, and care less about quality. 3. If you start new policy now, they may catch on but it will take much time.I sometimes run crews and sometimes work alone depending on the project. When I work alone I try to make the site look like I wasn't there when I leave every night. Tools get loaded up, supplies get stacked, floor gets swept, garbage can gets emptied. I have earned a great reputation for being exceptionally clean and well organized. When I run crews, I provide power tools but the catch is that they use my tools under my rules. They provide tool belt essentials or they are not a real carpenter and I let them know that. I provide missing essentials ONCE and tell them thereafter I charge them retail cost. Seems to work. Most of my tools are in great condition for their age. They are stored in their cases and have their proper place in the van where they are to be put back every night. As a result, I have found that the more well kept tools the better others treat them. A few of my tools are starting to look their age and are not as well treated by others. I give a quick "WTF" and short lecture on how to use a tool properly when I see disrespect a particular tool. Nobody likes to be lectured but I can't help myself for being protective; and it also seems to work. At the end of the day I provide brooms, dust pans, bins, garbage cans, bags, and vacs and we all clean the site, put away tools, and organize material before anyone is allowed to leave. Most see it as a good way to earn and extra 1/2 hr or so of pay and don't mind. I believe clean site keeps moral high and in the morning we roll out fresh, finish out coffees, and talk about the day's tasks and goals.When I read your posts, I didn't notice anything about you helping the guys clean up. Gotta lead by example. Clean up time is also reflection/team meeting time. Time to figure out if we got everything we need for tomorrow and look for mistakes or oversights.If you can convey it well enough, try to get the whole team on board. Remind them they are getting PAID to clean up and they are probably the highest paid maids around. If that doesn't seem to work, pick one guy (the one who f'd up the most that day) and make him start cleaning up early. Make sure he doesn't leave until everything is clean and organized. That's usually what I do when there is a squabble or when dealing with one bad attitude - in lieu of sending someone home, give him a menial task. In singling out one guy, I have been able to better get to know workers as I help them finish up cleaning. Sorta a 1on1 time.If that still doesn't work, hire a new guy. New guys are great because they are looking to impress and willing to adhere to your rules. Make it known to him that he's there to fill the position of someone who won't follow the rules. Then fire someone for not going along with the new rules. Keep doing that and you will eventually have a whole new crew who has no problem with the new rules.As an employer, you respect your men by providing work that puts food on their families plates or toys in their garages. As an employee, they respect you by performing the work required (which includes cleaning up) and bringing their tools to work. It is a give and take contract that everyone should be aware of and accepting of or be replaced with someone who will. DC
I agree with most of what you wrote.When I had our kick-off meeting I voiced my expectations and everyone followed. Recently, the project has gone into high gear and I have not been a great enforcer. Time to be that. On Monday AM, we'll have a meeting to reconfirm that my initial expectations are still in effect and the Tool Policy will be established. I have not had - correction, MADE - time to maintain and establish these two because the pace has picked up. Funny thing is, this is exactly when these policies should be held to. The guys apparently need more direction and better organization. I need to provide the first and teach (constantly) the second. Old habits are hard to break, especially when they are company wide. Changing this behavior requires continuous monitoring/ reminders.I used to enforce a policy of no one leaves until everyone is done with work, tools are put away and the site is clean, organized and secure. I need to remind them that this end of the day procedure needs to be maintained. FWIW, boss asked me if I need more guys. I, and maybe he, was thinking of adding to the crew, but maybe it could mean that there is a pool of guys ready to work if the current crew doesn't step up.I have been leading by example but, in the last 2 weeks, my example hasn't been up to grade. I was trying to establish that I have other things to do and that's why I depend on them to do what they do. Unfortunately, I relaxed my supervision and they became lost. Balancing independent and group thought within the same individual isn't the easiest thing to teach to a crew.I also gotta get more consistent. We used to have "chalk talks" after morning break where I would teach them a new skill or explain why we/ they need to do an installation as I specify. Those went very well. I stopped doing them because it never made it to the top of my To Do List and I gave the "talks" informally at the moment they were going to do the task. Now I see, with a few more minutes, I could have taught the whole crew, explained it better, and had it be a better use of everyone's time, if I had just continued "Chalk Talk" time.Frankie
Flay your Suffolk bought-this-morning sole with organic hand-cracked pepper and blasted salt.
Thrill each side for four minutes at torchmark haut. Interrogate a lemon.
Embarrass any tough roots from the samphire. Then bamboozle till it's al dente with that certain je ne sais quoi.
Arabella Weir as Minty Marchmont - Posh Nosh
"I'm sorry to disagree with you, but a drill, screwgun and impact driver are your responsbility, not your workers."It's all how you decide to handle it. I worked for a company that had very specific guidelines about tools. They bought everything like you are saying, anything electric, but hand tools had to be supplied by the worker. No money is given to the workers for tools.
Then there is the company where I was a foreman and they provided some of the bigger stationary field tools and that was it. Everything else was supplied by the carpenter. Now what was given was a monthly 'tool' allowance, wear & tear etc (I forget what it was, $200?) and if any of your tools broke, they were either fixed or replaced by them.It depends ultimately on how you want to run your company. There are no written rules about this.I can tell you though that guys take much better care of tools when they are their own. I'm one who is fairly careful with my tools and I have always been astonished at how sloppy and careless some carpenters are with their stuff. That's especially true when the tool is not theirs bought with their own money.
One guy I know goes through a miter saw every two or three years. He carries it and other tools in the back of his open pickup totally uncovered allowing rain, & snow to cover everything. Then he curses at the tools when they give out so soon calling them a POS.Unbelievable.
"He carries it and other tools in the back of his open pickup totally uncovered allowing rain, & snow to cover everything. Then he curses at the tools when they give out so soon calling them a POS."Hey, I know that guy.He once asked to borrow my SCMS for a few days on another job because his was broken. I told him point blank why I felt his was broken and that was why he could borrow my saw while I was there but no way was he taking it with him to borrow. He was sore but took it well, went to the store at lunch and bought another.DC
company. There are no written rules about this.>>>>>>>>>>>>.
That is or may be true. I think a carpenter could have a good case for power tools being the companies.
I would be much more in favor of the company having their own sets of tools. You have to have a system though with rules & regulations about their use & care.
Often I would stay after and maintain some of the more finicky tools like the thickness planer, cleaning & adjusting it. Some of the other guys would run anything they could through that thing like wet PT or Azak, straining the hell out of the motors, then they would just leave it in place all f'd up for the next guy. I tried like hell to get them to understand that they just couldn't do that with certain equipment, but they would just look at me.
The attitude of not caring was one of the big reasons I quit that company. The other was the rampant racism that went on.
Pick the worst and make an example of him.
Mike
Lunch garbage all around. No clean-up at the end of the day, let alone Friday.... Soda cans and coffee cups. Even cupcake wrappers strewn about.
Read all the responses regarding the tools. No need for me to add anyting there.
Regarding garbage, the above is entirely unacceptable. It reflects very badly on your company. On the occasional house I build, I don't tolerate it. All the garbage gets placed in the dumpster or a garbage can I provide. If that's not happening I give a verbal warning to the super and a fair warning that if it continues there will be a backcharge for cleanup.
As I said, I don't tolerate it.
Runnerguy
I have a decent crew. They are respectful, punctual, and good workers.
Are not!
If they were, they wouldn't work like that. Sounds like they have adjusted to the cushy ride.
Crack down.
Pat
If they don't pick up at the end of the day throw their stuff at them as they are leaving. If they leave their trash laying around after lunch pick it up and throw it at them. I have used this technique and it works. If they are not smart enough to figure out why they should keep it clean and put away, then they never will. So make them afraid not to put it away and clean up after themselves.
They can quite if they want. But they are going to have the same problem everywhere else.
Posting without a net.
Lots of luck with the cleanup crackdown.
I tried it and it backfired, just like Dreamcatcher mentioned. Everyone just got slower. Unfortunately, I was not in a position to fire, and the guys knew that. You might get better results by making an example.
Tools left out- same results. If it wasn't their personal tool, they just didn't care.
On the subject of tools that the employee is supposed to have, and the tools the employer is supposed to provide, all I will say is this: make a list and provide a reasonable time to comply. Consider a 3 strike rule. Be prepared to fire someone if needed... and then actually do it.
Good luck.
"Everyone just got slower."yup, gotta watch out for those pop-up labor unions and their slowdown stikes. DC
Labor affiliation has nothing to do with it.
Seen it happen on several jobs with different trades, union or not.
P1ss off a childish tradesperson, and you can bet they will put on the brakes... if you are lucky. If you aren't, then those p1ssed off people just might sabotage something.
I have learned that true professionals in the construction industry are few and far between.
I guess you didn't get it....Often a small non-union crew will band together when you piss them off and they know you cannot fire them all. This usually doesn't happen in an "organized" way. Actually what happens most often is that one guy will make an issue of it all day long, slowly bring down the moral of everyone else. Eventually everyone's angry. Work slows. I call this a "pop-up union"."... true professionals in the construction industry are few and far between."Honestly, the majority of tradesmen I come into contact with are quite professional. But I keep hearing similar comments from others here. Maybe it's because I work remodels. Maybe it's because I run my jobs as a "team effort - quality ahead of quantity - whatever the client wants she gets - we are all professionals here" type of operation. I show respect and gratitude to my subs and laborers, they do whatever I ask them to. It's simple and it works.DC
Your'e right, I didn't get it.
:)
So that's where my crew goes on their days off...I second the idea of having a designated cleanup time.e.g. last ten minutes everyone pitches in an cleans up and puts away tools.
Frankie,
Do you have a designated clean up time, like 10 or 15 minutes before quitting time? I read most of the thread and didnt see anything mentioned.
If you expect them to clean/pick up tools after hours on their own time, theres your problem. Most of the helpers I have had always seemed to put it into high gear at clean up time, moreso than the first 7.8 hrs, LOL.
Also, get a big trash can(s) and make sure everyone knows where it is.
Edited 6/15/2009 11:55 am by wood4rd
"Okay, my head is about to explode."
Hire me. I'll act like I appreciate the job because I would. I'll hang around after quittin' time and help you clean up too.
< I'll hang around after quittin' time and help you clean up too>Plancher Fascitis, You will also be known on the jobsite as "brown nose".
At least I'll be working. And eating.
Hell, the clockwatchers will be long gone anyway.
Yeah, them clockwatchers can be really annoying.Especially when they interupt my lunch break. Welcome to Breaktime.
Oh lemme guess, you've always been the loudmouthed, never a quiet moment know-it-all on the jobsite who never quits badmouthing and gettin' in everybody's $hit aren't you? The boss sucks, the crew sucks, the client sucks, the weather sucks, everybody's work but yours sucks. That about sum it up?
There's one on every job.
Edited 6/17/2009 7:27 am ET by Plancher_Fasciitis
Is this how your day usually starts out?I get along great with the crews and subs I work with.Have you considered anger management classes?Might want to think about it.
You shouda not taunted him with the brown nose remark witout a smiley face thingy, Say your sorry now!!!!
there a news report here in Ms, where the town lawyer called the commission "Stupid". He was force to apologize in front of the commissioner. The commission accept his apology but made the statement although you forgiven you still will be held resposnible for your action. They was trying to cut his pay 25%talk about some mean people.
bobbys, I dont think it was as bad as the "Rotten rafter tail " remark. :)We encourage humor and have fun on the job site. We do not tolerate rudeness or jerkism. I dont care if someone works through their breaks or whatever to impress the boss . If they have an attitude, their history.
Sorry it I came off as being rude, I was only trying to decipher his screen name.a "plancher" or "plancher cut" is the level cut on the rafter tail which forms the soffit."fasciitis" usually denotes dead or dying tissue in the body.Therefore, Plancher Fasciitis translates as Rotten Raftertail Only he knows what he meant by it. DC
DC, No, I didnt see that as a insult to PF. I knew you were putting the two words together and it sounded kind of funny. If I told a customer their soffits had plancher fasciitis, it might sound more professional than if I said rotten rafter tails.That could be why doctors charge 10 times more than we do.:)
Edited 6/18/2009 6:46 am by wood4rd
Plantar Fascitis is a sore ligament on the bottom of the foot usually a precursor to heel spurs.How about necrotising rafteritis
"necrotising rafteritis"I am actually bidding a project like that right now.DC
Yeah, I had the plantar fascitis in one foot for about 3 months.Very painful, right in the heel area. Sometimes i couldnt step on it at all.It went away for some reason, might have been better shoes I tried.That was about 4 years ago.That necrotising rafteritis sounds like it could get pretty costly. I would imagine the labor is pretty intensive, and could require the purchase of some new Multimaster blades, or a new MM if you dont have one yet.
Not insulted at all. It's a play on plantar fasciitis....
My mentor used to call the soffit a "plancier". I think it was called that in the old carpentry books that we used in apprenticeship school. I still occassionally refer to the soffit as a plancier. Some habits die hard.
Just looked it up, it can be "plancier" or "plancher" or even "planceer" but still means soffit.I have never used it to indicate a soffit, only to refer to the level cut to create the soffit: "plancher cut" because "soffit cut" or "level cut" sounds dumb and can be confusing.I assume the popularity of using trusses has relegated that term to the trash bin. Fortuantely I was taught by an old master of carpentry who had an excellent vocabulary and a sure grasp of the old ways. I know plenty of other carpenters my age who still call plumb level and a post a beam or worse, everything is just a "goddammit". DC
Plancher welcome to BT, Dont get mad right off, Its just the internet, I believe in you!!!
DK?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Plancher_Fasciitis = Rotten Rafter Tail?
Frankie, try this solution, Print this post out and hand it to each man.
Years ago I was part of a 25 man crew of carpenters.We had our own trailer that was heated and air conditioned.Decent carpet on the floor too. Most of the men tried to keep the trailer clean as possible, not an easy task considering the mud etc, that goes with the job. A good friend of mine was the biggest slob of em all. No amount of talking to him helped. I cleaned the trailer myself as I was the steward on this job.
John was under the impression that I looked good with a broom and dustpan. I wrote a note to his wife explaining the situation,stuck it in his lunch box.
Next morning John comes in and says "now you done it laddie,now you done it.My wife read your note and says I'm the same way at home".
From then on the trailer was cleaner.
mike
we had this guy that always play practical joke, some was down right vulgar. No matter what you said to him, he thought it was funny and it get worst.one day boss called his wife, serious, not a practical joke, and told her he was firing her husband today because he wont stop the child play.She took care of it, he been the perfect employee for years, it stop overnight. They had two young kids, with no income it stop overnight.maybe the wifes need to be called, either clean up or the highway.
Frankie this used to happen to me to and i would get mad, People take advantage of me cause im nice but then it builds then i blow up,
An older carpenter told me this witch i always remember.
>>> Bobby your letting the guys run you rather then you running them!!!!<<<
So how'd the speech and the 1st week under the new regime work out?
Thanks for asking.Had the meeting. They knew it was coming and were expecting much worse. I balanced what was wrong with what was going well. They embraced the Tool List and proudly announced they had all or most of the tools. Since, additional tools have shown up. There will be a spot check soon. "John, go up and screw that lag screw tighter..."
I told them:This was the biggest and best project the company had.The boss wants to give me more guys, but I can't use them yet.Whoever doesn't get sent here is getting laid off.If they don't carry their weight and get into production mode, they're get laid-off and replaced by one of the other guys.Oh, just before the meeting, one thing which became a problem was some of the framing guys didn't want to wear their tool belt while measuring, marking and cutting the joists. (?? Yeah, I know!) Ha! My answer was "Carpenters wear them full time on the job. If you don't want to wear one, you're telling me your not a carpenter. I need carpenters; not that other guy. Do the math."So far, everyone is kicking a$$. Let's see how long it lasts. I figure someone will test the water sometime this week and therefore get sent home early . Zero tolerance.Starting today, I am adding who/ what teams will be responsible for each task on the To Do List posted on the wall.Site has less talking, less random walking around and more focus. Very cool. I'll report at the end of the week.Frankie
Flay your Suffolk bought-this-morning sole with organic hand-cracked pepper and blasted salt.
Thrill each side for four minutes at torchmark haut. Interrogate a lemon.
Embarrass any tough roots from the samphire. Then bamboozle till it's al dente with that certain je ne sais quoi.
Arabella Weir as Minty Marchmont - Posh Nosh