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Joint compound selection???

Duey | Posted in Construction Techniques on February 22, 2004 09:29am

      I am going to be removing plaster and lathe from some walls in an older house, and then drywall them. I have heard differing ideas concerning mud and tape selection. One is to use mesh tape imbedded in a setting type compound, and  then finish with two coats of all-purpose compound or light-weight compound; another guy told me to use paper tape(said it’s stronger) embedded in all-purpose compound, and then second coat all-purpose or light-weight, and finish with topping compound. And also heard of a couple of other combinations! Frankly, I’m a little confused now. I have done some drywall work in the past, and have used both types of tape with the all-purpose mud for first two coats and topping for the final coat. Never had any problems with either as far as I know. 

      I’m wondering what is the best way to go?? Is the lightweight mud easier to work with?  I don’t have a lot of experience and so I would like to avoid the setting-types. (I need the longer working time.)

     Also, I will be taking up the carpets in the same two rooms of the house and putting down underlayment. The floor underneath is composed only of old one-inch material(1 x 4’s and 1 x 6’s) laid directly over the joists. The floor seems fairly stable but you can feel slight incongruities in the level. I was hoping to get by with installing some 1/4″ AC plywood. I don’t really want to go much thicker, because there are some transition issues where it meets up with the other rooms in the hallway doors. Two of those rooms are carpeted, one is vinyl. The opposite side meets up with a hardwood floor that has a 3/4″ underlayment, so I have no problems there.

      Does anyone have any suggestions concerning how thick the underlayment should be? They are going to put carpet back over it when I am done. I would appreciate any advice anyone can give me!! Thanks!!  Oh, one more question. Should it be nailed or screwed down and should I use some adhesive also? Thanks!!


Edited 2/22/2004 7:00:25 PM ET by Duey

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  1. DanH | Feb 23, 2004 12:41am | #1

    Speaking one amateur to another, I'd probably use the standard premixed compound with the new "holey" self-adhesive paper tape.

    Re the fiberglass tape, I've used it with premixed compound and had no problems with it, even though the manufacturer advises using setting compound. The main advantage of fiberglass, of course, is that it's self-adhesive, but the new self-adhesive paper tape also has this advantage.

    If you decide to work with regular paper, one trick of the trade is to keep a pan of water handy and wet the paper (one strip at a time) just before you imbed it. This makes it adhere to the compound much better.

    The main advantage of premixed compound, of course, is most obvious on a small amateur job where you're working slowly and in small "batches" and don't have someone to do the mixing while you work. On a whole-house pro job the setting compound is better in large part because it allows sanding and recoating much sooner.

    A disadvantage of premixed is that it is easily contaminated (with bits of dried mud), and when contaminated it won't finish smoothly. So never work out of the bucket -- scoup out a reasonable amount into a mud tray and then cover the bucket so it doesn't dry.

    And, of course, the number one rule for an amateur is to never try to put on more mud on the first or second coat to avoid the need for more coats. This will backfire. Instead, spread the absolute minimum you can on each coat, so that you really don't need to do any sanding other than just a quick once-over. You'll need 3-4 coats, but you'll save a lot of work and it'll look a lot nicer.

  2. JerBear | Feb 23, 2004 02:52am | #2

    All purpose compound first (USG green), then the second and third coats use the lighter mix (USG blue).  I prefer paper tape because you can create strong straight corners with it, but mesh is fine if you want.  Always mix your coumpounds with a paddle mixer and heavy drill before using them as to get the air bubbles out.  On the final coat I like to add a wee bit of water and lanolin dish soap into the light mix to give yourself a fine feather.  Learn to use it sparingly, you're not going to get a finished coat on the first or second application, you have to build it up.  A little dab'll do ya!

  3. bill_1010 | Feb 23, 2004 03:04am | #3

    you can use a mesh fiberglass tape with a taping compound, but not all purpose or lightweight.  YOu can of course use mesh with a setting compound.   taping mud has lots of binder and glue and is a bit tougher to sand.  

    As a DIYer or novice finisher, find a setting compound at 210 or 300 minutes. 90 minute or less are for patching or gap filling.   YOu can use 90 but only mix up what you can do in an hour.   After an hour it will set up on you before you have a chance to clean your knives and equipment.   Setting compounds require more cleanup labor and force you to time yourself.  

    Dont use that paper tape with holes,  wont give you the strength you need.

  4. MisterT | Feb 23, 2004 03:08am | #4

    Duey,

    You wouldn't be a lawer from Boston would you?

    H. Louis Duey of Duey Cheatum & Howe?

    ;) Gotta love Tom & Ray!

    Seriously,

    My Taping is an evolving ability.

    On My last job I tried a couple of "new" things with good success.

    It was a small bathroom, so with 8 inside coners to tape I wanted to try that new pro-flex(?) tape.

    I also tried the Medium weight Joint compound (Purple top bucket) for my first coat.

    Both worked well.

    I use a corner roller to load up my corners w/ mud.

    the tape is stiffer than paper so it sits straight in the corner.

    it also doent need to be covered completly w/ mud so you don't  have to get fussy tight in the corners.

    The purple mud goes on nice and smooths out well.

    I have also bee using the light weight (blue top) for my second and finish coats.

    I really like the blue stuff!

    seems to smooth out a lot easier than the multi purpose.

    You really only need setting types when you are filling major gaps.

    Easy Sand 90  works well and is not as rock hard as durabond.

    Some day I will be good enough to use durabond exclusively but I aint there yet.

    as for the floor 3/8 should be fine for carpet.

    Any slight irregularities will not be noticable under a good carpet and pad.

    Mr T

    Do not try this at home!

    I am an Experienced Professional!

    Remodeling Lead Carpenter w/ 20 years exp.

    + A Construction Engineering Degree

    Located in Elmira, NY

    Incessantly Whining Liberal

    Sarcastic Smartass

    Cunning Linguist

    Family Man

    Dog Lover (NOT THAT WAY YOU PREVERT!!!)

  5. Piffin | Feb 23, 2004 04:12am | #5

    I'd have to see it to be sure, but I think I would use a 3/8" PB for underlayment on that floor.

    for taping, when I see a crack type failure in papertape, it is usually along the center where the joint in the two sheets meets. When I see a failure in the fibreglass tape, it is along the edgeofthe tape. The woven fibreglas is stronger but the bond to underlaying paper is wealer is my theory. You need to use the strongest mud if you use the fibreglas tape to over come that. So use setting type for fibreglas.

    I like the setting tuype for paper tapetoo, because that first coat is a filler coat that is thicker and will shrink back if premixed, but you can do fine with taping mud. Just don't use finishing mud or lightweight easy sand for taping. It is easier to sand because it has feweer binders to glue it together so it will not hold paper as well.

    BTW, one of the most common errors leading to failures that I see from beginners is to scrape the base coat too thin. Without enough mud under the tape, you will see it bubble up from not being stuck.

     

     

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    1. Houghton123 | Feb 23, 2004 07:26am | #6

      Paper tape.  At least on my incompetent taping jobs, with fiberglass tape, I always wound up putting far more mud on than I should, just to hide the woven pattern, but with paper tape, I can blend it in with the second coat, and use the third coat to feather it all in.

  6. mikerooney | Feb 23, 2004 04:15pm | #7

    My advice is:

    Hire professionals. DIY and you won't save a dime and end up with an inferior job. 

     

  7. BigDawg | Feb 23, 2004 05:01pm | #8

    I'm just finishing up a bedroom in my own house and I learned a few new things.  I used the fiberglass tape on all of my flat seams, paper tape on the inside corners and PVC corner bead on the outside corners.  The first two coats were Durabond 90,  I bought premixed and thinned it down to the consistancy that I like (basically, hold the hawk level or your mudding the floor and not the walls... LOL).  I didn't sand between coats, just used a 6" knife to scrape down any high ridges that may have been left.  Then I followed with two coats of Plus 3. The first coat was thinned down and the finish coat was thinned and I added a touch of dishsoap.  The dishsoap makes it pull like butter and the final sanding then becomes a scuff coat.

    As for the floor, I can't help but at least I can admit to that.

    Good Luck and check back in al let us know how things are going.

    Stickman

    We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark.
    The real tragedy of life is when adults are afraid of the light.
    -Plato

  8. Mooney | Feb 23, 2004 05:59pm | #9

    What you were told before you posted this thread is still right . Its not confusing . Either one or the other of the first two. I dont have a problem with paper tape and durabond together. Every time a post like this comes up fiberglass tape always comes up like it has here . Usually its not necesary . There are only two reasons for using it and you probably have neither subject to deal with as a DIY. Pros use it to beat a coat to get out , but that doesnt hold water if they are a pro , because they should have 15 minute mud on the truck. Believe it or not , durabond 90 and paper tape is standard on quick jobs. The only real reason fiber is used is a solution for strengh. There are not a lot of those problems , but one for example is a hallway and a living room meeting with out a header . When we address a problem like that , we use 4 inch mesh , not 2. 

    If time is not a factor , use USG all purpose joint compound and paper tape . One thing thats never mentioned either is you can finish the job with the joint compound with out buying a box of topping or lite weight . Keep your work held tight to the wall and skim the edges with the side of your knife and it only requires a "brush sanding"anyway. Pros just dont sand very much at all ,as its wasted motion and energy. Learn to geter done on the wall in the finishing mode. Joint compound will allow you that kind of time to learn with out feeing rushed.

    Like Piffin , I havent seen the floor , but 3/8s is common for your purpose.  We glue and screw it .

    Tim Mooney

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