Replies

1. 
   xMikeSmith | May 16, 2003 06:47am | #1

   we stand the rims, build the box,  and add the joists..

   at least that's the way cadioli taught us...

   Mike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

   
1. 
   DaveRicheson | May 16, 2003 11:02am | #4

   Your attachment came out upside down for me. Took a second or two to figure out what I was looking at.

   What do you do when setting floor joist? I can' see handling joist over a 14 to 18" high flimsy  plywood rim joist.

   I have got one coming up like that soon. Interested in your method of approach.

   Above question inteneded for you too, Jim

   Dave

1. 
   xMikeSmith | May 16, 2003 01:23pm | #6

   dave... jim's the framer... we're just slow builders...

   if you have 3/4 rim joists , then you must be using I-joists... i'd set them first and then rim them..

   with 2x framing , we build the rim box , then set the joists.. most of the time we  use a 2x6 PT sill, either single or double ( usually double )... we don't have any problem toeing the joists to the sill, although the nails thru the rim are the primary connection..

    like i say.. we might build 2-4 floor systems in a year... so a regular framer will hve a lot more techniques and systems worked out for this than we doMike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

2. 
   andybuildz | May 16, 2003 12:13pm | #5

   Mike

        How do you do that standing on your head? You rock dude....lol.

   I've always done the joists first. I think there isnt a set way. Whatever floats yer boat.

   I noticed today a job someone was doing with those truss looking joists ( I forget what theyre called sorry). they used 3/4"OSB as the rim. Whats up with that? ....Am I missing something here?

   I also noticed someone using triples on the first and last solid 2x joists and the house they were building next to it they used single joists down the line.

   I've always dbl'd up my first and last, under the exterior walls. Think thats over kill?

   On the job I'll be doing on my house I decieded to use 2x6 exterior walls even though I dont have to.  Using I-joists for the first time this job which I spose means I wont need to dbl them up......right? Or maybe those truss looking joists are better so wires and pipes can go through them>

   Geezzz.this is worse than Baskin Robbins....too many choices..what ever happened to just crowning 2x12's?.....ugh

   Seems everyone has a different theory.

   Good topic actually.

   Be confusion

               Namaste

                           andy

    

    

   In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''

   http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

   Edited 5/16/2003 5:23:43 AM ET by Andy Clifford(Andybuildz)

   Edited 5/16/2003 5:29:29 AM ET by Andy Clifford(Andybuildz)

1. 
   Qtrmeg | May 16, 2003 01:44pm | #7

   Andy, there isn't any reason to dbl the first & last joists, is there? Maybe if there is an extreme beam load, but not for the typical house.

   For your addition, how are you going to handle the floor height issue if you use tji's? Something has to give, right? Either the floor height or the siding height. Hmm...

1. 
   andybuildz | May 16, 2003 04:00pm | #11

   For your addition, how are you going to handle the floor height issue if you use tji's? Something has to give, right? Either the floor height or the siding height. Hmm...

    Qt,

          Why do you see a problem there?

   The first floor shouldnt be an issue and as far as the second floor goes there will be a few steps up to the master bedroom from the existing house which will be the only 2nd floor connection to the addition besides the three car 30x30 garage/shop.

   The cool part of the addition to me will be my garage/shop which has a ton of room above it that will have a door into a sort of sitting/puter room attached to the master bedroom. Guess where I'll always be : )

   One of the biggest headaches I forsee is tieing the addition to the existing house in the rear cause its so incredable crooked and of course no plywood sheathing. and tieing the roof lines together should be a trip. Its a wood shake roof on strip sheathing (the old roof).

   Anyway, trying to get an excavation guy is a real trip right now too. One guy quoted me twenty two grand !!! Yeh righttttt. Can't wait to see how the others come in. Must be the time of year.

   As far as dbling up the joists on the ends...I've always done that when its a load bearing two story job. One joist under a 2x just seemed wrong to me in a logical way. I could be wrong but it doesn't hurt.

   Be well,

             Namaste

                            andy

    

    

    

   In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''

   http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

   Edited 5/16/2003 9:02:54 AM ET by Andy Clifford(Andybuildz)

1. 
   Qtrmeg | May 17, 2003 02:52am | #19

   Well, you are a beamer, (it is a post and beam, doh?)and the addition will have 14-16" tji's on a sill. So, to have the new and old floors "even", your siding will have to drop, right? And what are you going to do about the foundation height, slope away issue, with the grade?

   I could care less about the second floor, but you might need to be innovative to make the first deck look good outside, and work inside.

   The roof is gonna bite, wanna price to make that puppy work? Touch any of that and it will blow up.

   Don't talk to me about excavators, it must be a trip to get one where you are. It might be better to get a price from the crete guy to get you outta the ground. If they do that there, they all do here.

   Ahh, the doubles on the ends, total waste. It just pi$$es everyone off. Dude, more often than not you are building up for a gable, hello? If you have a load, deal with it, otherwise, frame by tape. Just watch out for the black diamonds, swoosh...

2. 
   andybuildz | May 17, 2003 04:27am | #21

   QT

          There aint nuttin I aint ever figured out homes, so just wach me.

   I dont wanna know nuttin bout nuttin unless I need to ask and you and framer  (Joe Carolla )be will be the first I ask.

   Seriously have a hard on about this job (sorry Brian) and can't wait to add my work to over three other centuries of work.

   Pulled out a dbl window in the bathroom I'm currently working on and cut it in half and reinstalled it a buncha feet over beside where the addition will be.....Wanna know what the label on the side of it said?

   Anderson! I so gotta take a pic of that and post it here....Laughed my azz off.

   Can't wait to climb up on the roof and start framing......wanna help?

   Off to help my Moms move tomorrow in Fla from Tampa to Orlando then tile her kitch...packin tools tonight....Check my websight below for my phone number if yer in the area and wanna have a cpl..My wife'll give you my number down there

   Be well all....love ya

                            Namaste

                                      andy 

    

   In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''

   http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

3. 
   jimatgreatwhite | May 17, 2003 07:57am | #22

   Dave and all you others:

   Thanks for the replies.

   The way we do it is Joists first stocked with a crane. All multiply headers are set at this time also.

   Joists spread to layout and laid flat, and cut in place.

   Stand joists then rim, detail and sheath.

   That's the short version.

   Where do they require joist hangers for every joist at the rim line? Hope you've got a Paslode Positive Placement nailer!

   Jim

3. 
   Qtrmeg | May 16, 2003 01:47pm | #8

   Geesh, I got it, funny.

   And not that it matters, but it is faster to do the joists first, then the rim.

2. 
   Piffin | May 16, 2003 07:05am | #2

   Rims first.

   How 'bout you?

   .

   Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   jimatgreatwhite | May 16, 2003 08:02am | #3

   Piffin and Mike

   Joists first, that's the way they taught me.

   Do you nail the joists to the mud-sill or just the rim joist? If yes, how?

   I'm not very coordinated and can't figure how to get joists nailed to the sill with rim in the way.

   Mike is that one of those fishtank hoses Cadioli has hooked to that gun? I'm guessing that it is Mark judging by his posture.

   Jim

3. 
   RussellAssoc | May 16, 2003 02:47pm | #9

      Real joists, rim 1st.  Saw dust joist, joist 1st.

1. 
   andybuildz | May 16, 2003 03:45pm | #10

   Russ,

       Why do you call it a saw dust joist? 

    

   In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''

   http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

4. 
   Timuhler | May 16, 2003 04:12pm | #12

   Jim,

   If we are using dimensional lumber, we scatter all the joists where they go and then rim.  That works well on the second story too because you can stand on the joists that ar lying flat and feel a little safer.

   For I-joists we nail the rim on the backside and then scatter the joists and butt the rim and then snap a line on the other end and cut everything to length.  Then we rim everything remaining and roll the joists.

   That works well for us.

1. 
   skids | May 16, 2003 04:51pm | #13

   oh god i love this! which came first the chicken or the egg? oh and by the way how do you layout and frame for a rake wall? what do you do first?

1. 
   Ronbaby | May 16, 2003 07:06pm | #14

   most efficient way, like Tim said, IMO, lay joists flat on layout marks all crowned one way, giving you a walk way, install rim, then working backwards, start rolling joists, working off the flat ones. For rake side, I assume your talking gable studs? Again, IMO, install rafters and plumb, cut all gable studs and install. Then sheathing, sheath from the inside working though the gable studs. Ripping sheathing in half, no line snap required, just a fast, wavy rip. Install bottom rip and nail off, then install top rip, interlock the wavy rip cut and nail it off. No one ever sees the rip, especially from the ground, if you lock it exactly in place.

1. 
   Scooter1 | May 16, 2003 07:17pm | #15

   Can't even imagine doing the Joists without a Rim. We are required by Code to use Joist Hangers. Toe nailing just doesn't cut it.

   Regards,

   Boris

   "Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934

1. 
   Ronbaby | May 16, 2003 07:22pm | #16

   huh?

2. 
   TommyB12 | May 17, 2003 12:30am | #17

   I'm a joister then rimmer.  Putting the rim on first is a lot harder and potentially more dangerous.  It also makes it  alot harder to scatter the joists.

   I don't frame enough to require owning a lift, so I like to get my lumber from a company that brings it out with a boom.    In that case I will lay out just enough joist and rim at a corner to so that the can boom the decking there.  I also have them boom the remainder of the  joists and rim to straddle a beam and bearing wall somewhere centrally located. 

   Takes good timing, but saves a lot of hand moving, and its free. 

   Tom

3. 
   JohnSprung | May 17, 2003 02:09am | #18

   Lay the rims down side by side, measure and mark where the joists go.  Nail the hangers to both rims, one side only, using those short (1 1/2") hanger nails.  Place the rims, crown and sort the joists, then drop the joists into the hangers and finish off the nailing.  At least that's what I'm doing with my deck.

   -- J.S.

2. 
   Timuhler | May 17, 2003 03:29am | #20

   Skids,

   I don't know whether you mean a gable wall or the gable end of a wall after the roof is framed.  I'll answer for both, but I think by rake wall you are talking about the entire wall with gable built on the ground.

   For a gable wall built on the ground I snap everything on the deck in a different color than the walls are snapped with.  We use black chalk for the walls and red or blue for the rake wall.  I'm in Seismic Zone III here near Seattle and we have shear walls to deal with so I start layout from the shear wall.  If there isn't a shear wall in that wall I'll start layout from one end unless the wall is going to be really tall.  In that case I'll start layout from the center of the ridge so that I can double the longsest few studs if necessary.  We sheath from bottom so the sheathing will nail into the mudsill and we block all seams for fireblocking and to strengthen the wall.

   Having said all of that, we build a lot of rake walls, but we have an old forklift to lift them.  The last wall we built was 30' wide and the center was 20' high.  Fully sheathed it took 7 of us to lift and we barely got it up.  Couldn't get the forklift close enough for that wall.

   For gable walls after the roof is built I follow layout from the wall below for the siders or if it's a Cathedral ceiling, the drywallers.  I usually plumb the tallest stud on either side of the ridge post and then figure the lengths with my calculator and give the cut list to a helper or cut them all myself.  I'll cut  a few and check for plumb and then make any changes if necessary.  For sheathing on big gable ends I start from the bottom or on small gables I start in the middle.  If I am cutting I can cut all the sheathing from the numbers given to me on the first sheet.  Then the guy up above doesn't have to do anything but nail.  It works out really well.

   Now, which came first the chicken or the egg?