The attached photos are of the joists for the second floor of our new home. It appears that the two joists on the end are in pretty poor condition, as though they have been left out in the weather for some time. Also, it appears that the center “I” portion of the beams have started to delaminate a bit. The subfloor for the second floor will not go on until Monday so it is not too late to have my builder take these joists off. I need to know if these joists are OK as is, or need to be removed and replaced with new ones. Also, if I do need to have them removed, what would be my best approach so as not to tick the builder off?
Replies
I would not want them either. Tell the builder to please replace them because you don't trust the joist is as good as it should be. In reality, they probably are OK, but it will nag you just knowing they are there. The builder should not have a problem with that.
If you look at the warrenty information and considerations for building with engineered or composite lumber there are numerous mentions about avoiding prolong exposure to weather and sunlight. Depending on the manufacturer this can be as short as 30 days or left deliberately vague. Since most lumber yards keep their stock exposed outdoors, one must wonder about the long-term structural integrity of this material.
I f all the joists have had the same exposure time, and some are beginning to show signs of failure, what of the remainder. You may ant to consider removing them all and using better material.
david
Thanks for the input guys. I believe that the 2 joists on the end ( the ones that look weathered) are ones that were left over from another job. The other joists that they used are all brand new, as I saw them bundled and wrapped with plastic at the job site. It would appear that they didn't have enough new joists to finish the job and opted to use these "leftover" joists. For this reason, I don't believe that ALL of the joists are in need of replacement. Any other thoughts?
If they are sitting on top of a wall then I wouldn't mess with them . I mean really, were are they going to go? They are supported the whole length. If they were spanning across a room then I would have them removed.
Dave
I don't really see a problem except for water staining. A couple of stubby studs alongsid of it or web infill would be al the insurance you need.
Excellence is its own reward!
You could fill in the webspace with plywood on both sides as well. Make the whole thing solid. Probably cheaper than replacing the joist, and stronger to boot.
Whattaya mean, I can't be three people at once ???!!?
Don't even think about using those weather beaten joists.
They will void your warrantee. I did a tech audit for Macmillan Bloedel on an installation of their silent joist system that had also been improperly stored and had started to delaminate. The contractor had to pay more than 30 thousand dollars for the repairs.
If you knowingly let these joists remain when you could do something about it, you may not be able to do anything about it later.
GET THEM THE HELL OUT OF YOUR HOME.
Gabe
Why not just have them replace the crappy joist with a site built 2x4 stub wall. Usually cheaper that way anyhow. Stubby only needs one top plate as the bottom plate on the wall above doubles it. 918 Contracting - Residential Construction
I can't tell for sure from the photos but if these are on walls at the exterior and are going to carry an upper floor wall above them I believe they either need compression blocking along side them or use the engineered rim joist material made for this purpose. As I understand it, I joists are not designed for use at a rim location that will get much load on top. The rim ends up with a fair amount of load on it and in this case that means on the 7/16 osb web. Check with the manufacturers recommended installation guidelines. As to the weathering, I think you are right about being concerned, But it may be that the supplier was trying to use up some leftovers, not the builder. Tell him your concerns asap.
that's what I mean about the stubby studs, you need'm there anyway to carry the load.
That's probably what the builder was plannning on when he chose that location to place it. He can do it in backup framing.
Gabe, Do they really look delaminating or just weather bleached?
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
In the first picture, there's a darker area over the left half of the header that seems to have moisture damage as well. The second picture seems to have some of the flakes loosened as a result of the glue failing.They have been rained on and left soaked for an extended period of time.
Others have also noticed that there isn't any space for a rim joist in the first picture also. It was already pointed out that these joists are not designed to carry loads without stiffeners and blocking.
These floors and ceilings systems are normally engineered and come complete with working drawings and instructions. They do require special attention to detail. Any contractor who simply installs them like you would a conventional 2x joist system is fooling himself and his customer into accepting a substandard building.
In my opinion, it's not worth the risk of headaches. Take them out and do it right.
Gabe
100% agree on installation details.
I just couldn't see damage that bad from here but that's why the guy on site is the liable one. You're right about now is time to take care of it if you're going to.
Excellence is its own reward!
I agree that the joist could use some web stiffeners. OTOH, this joist is fully supported by a wall. Like me, this builder just couldn't force himself to throw away a perfectly good joist. OK, so now it's not perfect but it still can be used in this case.
I think the real question is whether you trust this guy or not. Is he responsible for the construction of the house or not? Are you going to be second guessing him throughout the whole project? This is your right but I don't think that it is the best way to work with a good builder. He has looked at the materials and the particular situation and has made a judgement that this will work as well as it needs to. In my mind that is what this is, a judgement call and judging from what I can see, not a bad one. I suggest that you mention some of the things that you have heard here and let him make the call. How you handle this problem and how he reacts can set a tone for the whole project. Good luck.
Absolutely wrong.
No good builder would install a piece of garbage and the say it's good enough.
This material is engineered and built to standards. We're not talking about a piece of 2 x 10 that gets wet and then dries out to the same standards as it's original.
Any contractor that would come to one of my sites and try to install substandard products and then try to tell me that it's good enough would be gone as well as the material.
This is a man's home were talking about, not yours. You can save all those substandard pieces and build your own home with them. Any contractor who doesn't use the best materials he can find shouldn't be in the business.
Gabe
Edited 4/1/2002 7:36:19 AM ET by GABE_MARTEL
I have been taking this all in and trying to come up with some sort of game plan. I am leaning toward agreeing with Gabe and the others that suggested they be removed. I do not wish to create a poor relationship with the builder, that is the last thing that I would want to do, however, he should be a reasonable enough man to understand my concerns and satisfy them.
I believe the best question is.....would you want this on your own home? I am not a builder, but this looks like a simple fix right now, maybe an hours work or so? Whereas, what if, worst case scenario, this joist does fail?....how much work would be needed, and at what cost, to fix it?
I don't believe he would need to "eat" the cost of the joist. He could simply use it on another home.
I realize that this is a judgement call but does the builder have the knowledge, that an engineer would have, to determine if this joist is good?
I will be leaving to discuss this and a few other things with the builder later this morning.
One way to approach it might be to ask the builder how much those joists cost. Your willingness to pay for the change you want could go a long way towards keeping the working relationship happy.
-- J.S.
John , I know that around her they are running about $1.75 a linear foot.
Can't say I'm thrilled with the condition of that joist. I wonder if they ran out of rim board and just stuck an old one up there on the end wall or something?
Since it's just a rim joist, I'd say taking it out is a matter of personal preference. I'd probably replace it just because the thing looks so bad. The builder shouldn't have any problem with it unless you don't have a very good working relationship to start with.
As for carrying a floor above - Most I-joists will carry about 2,000 PLF in this situation. (Check the info your supplier provides) Rim joist is rated at around 4,000 PLF. You probably won't need any blocking unless you have a point load from a girder truss or beam.
Come on Boss,
You just assumed that the joist in question is at full spec. Would you quarantee 2000 lbs? What if it's 10% damaged or 20%? Do you know, does anyone know? Of course not.
I can't believe that you would take a chance on it, not your style.
Gabe
First of all, I would get those sorry looking lam beams OUTA there. Be sure to use the term "DELAMINATING" when talking to the contractor. Use it a lot! These beams are LAMINATED, and DELAMINATING is a bad thing for them. It simply means they are coming apart.
I may be missing something here, so some of you that use these on a regular basis please help me out.
I know what you are refering to as a "rim joist". In this case, it is the two sorry looking ones. In the few instances where I got to see a house being built with these type of lam beams, the "rim joists" being used were solid, doubled 2 x material on the ends. It looked right to me anyway. Looked good and solid.
Here, we also use a "rim joist" along the face edge. These rim joists are usually single 2 x sitting right over a beam, or top plate in the case of a second story floor. I notice in the pics that there are no "rim joists" at the face of this floor system. Am I missing something here, or did the pics just not show a spot for them, and they haven't been installed yet?
Also, I have seen a lot fo pic ads for "Silent Floor" system. You know, the one with the elephant standing on the floor. The joists in the ad pics are spaced a lot closer than these joists seem to be. Are these joists spaced ok? They just seem a little far apart to me, but then again I don't get to see these used very often here.
Just curious....James DuHamel
James,
This may help you with your questions.
http://www.tjm.com/tin/latdes1.cfm
Gabe
OK, by now I'm sure the issue has been resolved on site with the builder, but I had to step back in.
Gabe, On your job, if you said replace, there would be no Q that I would replace without argument or hard feelings.
but
I went back and really studied those photos again and really can't see any actuall delamination other than a couple thumbnail size flakes that you can get with any brand new TJI or OSB product. It's always been my understanding that any tji used in an application like this needs blocking to bear the weight of the upper bearing wall and its loads. My greater concern here would be the lack of a rim joist or bloking at the right angle end of these trusses.
So put in the blocking, let it take the bearing, and rest easy is my advice still.
unless
There really is serious delamination that those on site can see but I can't. The only damage I've ever personally seen in this kind of product is from fork lifts, cranes, and truck tires.
BTW I have a nine foot scrap end cut of SP-25 10" that has been laying out in the weather for six years that is still solid. The surface is flaking but the glues are still holding solid.
I've got this place out by the shop where I put ends of all this new fangled material to get weather tested laying out on the ground. It helps me accept new materials based on experience beyond what the books say.
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
The question is will the manufacturer's warranty be honored if it's not done to hoyle?
The answer is no.
Gabe
O.K. Gabe, you convinced me to change my mind about leaving it in. I wasn't thinking about the warranty . I was thinking along the lines of if I would use it in my house and the answer is, yes I would.By the time that you fill the outside void with OSB and put in your squash blocks every 4'I wouldn't have a problem with using it. I normally try to use a piece like that for blocking so as to cut out the bad parts.
I'm pretty certain I know why they used it. It probably kept getting kick out while they were framing the floor and then Friday afternoon it was either go to the lumberyard or use it and they decided to use it so that they could start laying deck on Monday morning.
Sometimes those judgment calls on Fri. afternoon are not the best.I've been guilty of it too, only to come back Mon. and rip it out of there, after thinking about it all weekend.
Dave
that has been laying out in the weather for six years that is still solid.
It may look solid and without any load appear solid, but may not meet engineered load requirements or specifications. So much of this is liability issues with the manufacturer protecting themselves. That is why they are so picky about exposure.
We all have seen problems with, peeling, delamination and swelling in engineered lumber. To what extent it weakens the material is a factor of load, but also time. In other words, how much shorter lifespan will the material have due to that exposure. The material is problematic under the best of conditions.
davidwalk good
For those of you that are wondering what transpired at our (myself and the builder) discussion this morning.....(FYI...they didn't do any framing today due to the rain)
I attempted to mention the joist situation as casually a possible in an attempt to get a feel for what his reaction would be. He said that he had the framers place that joist on the end, on top of the wall, due to it's condition. I expressed my concern about the 2 joists on the end, and said that I would like to fix the problem now, while it is still any easy fix. He replied that he would go over and check them out thoroughly to make sure that they were adequate. I agreed to this, but afterwards felt like I should have just told him to get rid of them. I will stop out there tomorrow morning to see what is done about the matter.
I do not agree with paying for the cost of 2 new joists myself, as a previous poster had mentioned. I feel that I have paid for 2 NEW joists (in the price of the house) already. If I go buy a new car do I get tires with 20,000 miles on them?
Thanks for all the replies/insight......wish some of you were building this home for me!
"Thanks for all the replies/insight......wish some of you were building this home for me!"
If I had been the builder, I probably would have replaced them on your request, whether I thought they needed it or not. I have certainly done similar things many times. I feel that it is important to establish trust early on in the relationship and to concretely demonstrate my responsiveness to the customer's concerns. But I still would have let the customer know what I thought about it.
It is easy to talk about responding to a customer's concerns but I, for one, am not always walking the walk. If you have a bad feeling about your builder at this stage of the project, it is not a good sign. I hope that this resolves itself postively.
Gabe,
Excellent information. Thank you very much.
I learned a lot, and the more I read and study that info, the more I am learning. Thanks again.
James DuHamel
J & M Home Maintenance Service
"Southeast Texas"
James,
Seems only fair, I learned a lot going through it again.
I tend to get rusty with this stuff. Not much need for it in large commercial projects. But I keep "hot" by doing tech audits on failures for MB's engineers.
Unfortunately, these are the times when there's an argument about warranty vs neglect. The home owner is sometimes left on the sidelines during this little dance and 95% of the time the contractor or his insurance ends up paying for the repairs.
If there's a lesson to be learnt here, it's this;
You can't take it upon yourself to "fix" things to make them right everytime, especially when it's pre-engineered.
Engineered joists are specifically designed to take great loads given specific parameters. Change those parameters and they don't hold ####.
If you have a delivery of engineered beams, posts, trusses or joists and they don't look right. STOP RIGHT THERE, ASK QUESTIONS AND DEMAND SOMEBODY TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE INSTALLATION. You do not have the authority nor the blessing of the manufacturer to redesign or modify or accept damaged goods for installation into a warranted floor system.
Doing so will put you at risk and you all have to agree that we're made responsible for everything including the weather these days and you all have too much invested in your work to risk it over a piece of wood.
Off my soapbox
Gabe
This should be very simple. You have a builder at the framing stage...and an unhappy customer. The question revolves around 2 sticks of lumber......take them out anf put in new. The customer isn't asking why each and every piece isn't showroom new...or why the nail heads are scratched......there are 2 very different sticks of lumber...that stick out like a sore thumb. Fix it and move on.
From what I could see.....looked like the second pic was a shot of mushrooms starting to grow. Maybe I saw wrong......but plant life on framing lumber usually isn't a good thing.
I do remodeling and trim....a whole different world from new const. Had a buddy that was having his secong house built. Learned all the lessons on the first one. He'd Go on Thurs evenings and chack the framing...and spray paint the crooked studs. He had enough of a background in construction to tell the difference.
He even told the builder he'd be doing this...sure...no prob...we're just here to make ya happy!
He'd go back to check on Sat to see what had been fixed. It got to the point where the builder would be at the house on Fri...walk thru with his cell...and promise it'd be done by quiting time......then nothing would be changed the following day.
So my buddy devised a better method......he'd call the builder to tell him how many studs he'd kicked out the thrown into the dumpster.
Not the way to go you say?? Well.....I've been to his home and a few others in the plan......and he's just about the only one to have straight walls! He'd never hire the guy again...and the builder wouldn't take his money again! He's plenty happy...while all his neighbors do is complain about the poor consturction....by one of the best rep builders in town.
Make them change the joist now. It's your money. If it's an unreasonable request....they'll lat ya know and the lawyers will sort it out. Easier to fix now. Jeff * Jeff J. Buck/ Buck Construction/ Pittsburgh, PA *
2nd Generation Buck Const, 3rd generation Craftsman
Gabe,
Best advice I've heard in a long time.
I agree with all of it. We have to learn to take responsibility for our actions, and do whatever is right to correct a negative situation. Too many times I see people just go with the flow, and get bit in the butt later on. Best to deal with a problem RIGHT THEN AND THERE than to wait. Waiting usually costs a lot more, and causes SOOOO many headaches that could have been avoided.
IF YA DON'T KNOW, OR AIN'T SURE - ASK!
James DuHamel
J & M Home Maintenance Service
"Southeast Texas"
The joists must be torn out. And as has been said... Get a copy of the floor plan that came with the TJIs and make sure all is done right. There's lots of blocking, special cutting and drilling rules... special rim joist details... bracket details... nailing details... I would not trust any of it to the builder at this point. I would basically trust all of his standard framing but... in all actuality... I would just check all the work.
Lakeside...On the mountain, near the stream,aj Builder of Fine Homes & Tennis CourtsAnd featuring; Great Camps of the Adirondacks
If you re-read my post, I said I would probably replace it. But I'd want to look at it myself first - I don't like judging things by pictures alone.
When I mentioned the fact that most I-joists are rated by their manufacturers to carry 2,000 PLF, I was responding to the guys who said it probably needed blocking anyway.
They are 19.2" on center.
Why didnt anyone think to call the truss supplier and have a rep. visit the job site to see if their company will accept the condition of the truss IN WRITING or not.
I'm somewhat disappointed with many of the replies here.
This is not stick lumber. It's an engineered product.
Obviously, it's been weathered. How much? How long? How severely?
Freeze/thaw cycles?
Oxidation?
Crystallized/brittle glue?
Who knows.
I think we all have a pretty good seat-of-the-pants feel about stick lumber...we all have a good feel for a partially damaged stick and whether it can perform as a member of the structure.
Engineered joists and beams? If it doesn't look right, it doesn't get nailed down. These are structural members we're yakking about here.
It's your house. You've asked them to be pulled down. If they're not, then tell the builder to pull them down.
You write the checks...you control the process.
Why don't you send the photos to the manufacturer, they can prescribe a repair if necessary. It's done all the time.